The Electric Vehicle Thread

[Chuckanut]

No added fee for plug in hybrids.

The gov signed the law on 5/13 and it goes into effect on 9/1. It adds a $200 fee to the annual registration of EVs, defined as "...a motor vehicle that has a gross weight of 10,000 pounds or less and uses electricity as its only source of motor power."

Note the law also excludes electric powered motorcycles, mopeds, etc.

In Washington state all hybrids including those that don’t plug in and get all their power from gasoline pay the same fee $75 a year. I think full EVs pay $150 a year.

The state is also planning on using volunteers to try out a new road mileage tax. That will be fun.

 

[Koolau]

All this talk of extra road fees for EVs make me think "The gummint giveth and the gummint taketh away."

Yeah, I realize it's primarily Federal gummint giving big tax rebates for purchase of EVs. But some states also offer varying kinds of rebates (for instance, on installation of in-home charging stations) as well as other perks such as use of HOV lanes with one occupant - the list by state is too extensive.

It sorta seems like bait and switch. We get you to buy an EV and THEN we start piling on the special fees.

Absolutely not suggesting it isn't "fair" (whatever that means) to charge extra road fees. Just saying that It seems a schizophrenic approach to encouraging transition to an all EV transportation system.

 

[Zathras]

In Washington state all hybrids including those that don’t plug in and get all their power from gasoline pay the same fee $75 a year. I think full EVs pay $150 a year.

The state is also planning on using volunteers to try out a new road mileage tax. That will be fun.

The gas tax should be abolished and a mileage & weight class tax enacted for all cars. That would be the equitable way to do it.
It is also incredibly simple to do and would save money.

 

[Chuckanut]

The gas tax should be abolished and a mileage & weight class tax enacted for all cars. That would be the equitable way to do it.

It is also incredibly simple to do and would save money.

Please explain how simple it is to do.

I am not trying to be a wise-guy. I've read about it and there are lot of concerns. Most are in regard to things like privacy, and appropriating the money fairly between the states. (Example, about 1/2 of my mileage last year as done out of state.)


I am all for getting EV owners to pay their fair share of road taxes. No more. No less.

 

[aaronc879]

The gas tax should be abolished and a mileage & weight class tax enacted for all cars. That would be the equitable way to do it.
It is also incredibly simple to do and would save money.

I'm sure I would call it simple. How would they determine what your mileage is? Everyone going to have to bring their car in to a government run garage to have their odometer verified? I know some states already require annual testing for all vehicles but I guarantee you that everyone who live in states that don't require it would not consider it "simple" if they had to start doing that.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

Scooters of any persuasion scare me in Honolulu traffic. I'm thinking Phoenix might be worse. But I sure do wish folks would switch from 2 cycle scooters to electric scooters. Less noise, no tail-pipe pollution, easier to scrape up after collision.

Yeah we tried the motorcycle thing when we first arrived in Phoenix in 2006. Too hot to ride year round and too many crazy automobile drivers. We were almost taken out in one of those roundabouts. It was fun while in lasted but a helmet when it's 90 plus out kinda fries your brain.

 

[Koolau]

Please explain how simple it is to do.

I am not trying to be a wise-guy. I've read about it and there are lot of concerns. Most are in regard to things like privacy, and appropriating the money fairly between the states. (Example, about 1/2 of my mileage last year as done out of state.)


I am all for getting EV owners to pay their fair share of road taxes. No more. No less.

Road tax by mileage has been proposed on Oahu. Here, it's easy. Not too many folks drive their cars anywhere but on the Island. Privacy isn't particularly important here (I'll leave it at that) but your mileage is recorded every year during mandatory state auto inspection. It's not a choice. YMMV

 

[JoeWras]

Yeah, my state has mandatory inspections so the mileage is recorded each year. We also have a property tax on on the value of the vehicle (grrrr), and presumably the assessed value of the vehicle takes into consideration the recorded mileage. It always seems a bit in the govt's favor, though (top end of KBB private sale). I have to say, when buying a car, it was handy to see this mileage in the Carfax record.

So for the tax, it would be "simple" to do it this way in my state. However... This will also get the hackers going and coming up with ways to roll back, tamper, or stop odometers. Yeah, yeah, I know they are now sophisticated. Never stopped a hacker. Their market now is resale. They would be much more incentivized to offer services if their market was tax cheats.

Another problem with mileage based tax levies is "point of use" impacts. When I drive across Kansas, I have to fill up. I pay Kansas taxes. That's fair, because I'm impacting Kansas roads. This point of use impact tax goes away if the states all go to a mileage system.

 

[Car-Guy]

No added fee for plug in hybrids.

The gov signed the law on 5/13 and it goes into effect on 9/1. It adds a $200 fee to the annual registration of EVs, defined as "...a motor vehicle that has a gross weight of 10,000 pounds or less and uses electricity as its only source of motor power."

Note the law also excludes electric powered motorcycles, mopeds, etc.

Glad to hear it since I just bought what is called a mild hybird truck this week.

 

[Chuckanut]

Road tax by mileage has been proposed on Oahu. Here, it's easy. Not too many folks drive their cars anywhere but on the Island. Privacy isn't particularly important here (I'll leave it at that) but your mileage is recorded every year during mandatory state auto inspection. It's not a choice. YMMV

Hawaii is unique in that it’s very difficult to drive to another state. [emoji3]. Or even other parts of the state. You folks need more bridges or maybe a hyper loop system under the ocean.

 

[Midpack]

For those sharing all the reasons annual mileage isn’t a practical solution to apply road taxes for EVs, what’s your alternative?

 

[2HOTinPHX]

Glad to hear it since I just bought what is called a mild hybird truck this week.

Why shouldn't hybrid cars that get better gas mileage have to pay a higher road tax rate or additional charge like the EV charge? Since they use less gas they are paying less gas road tax per mile driven.
Why did you buy a hybrid in the first place? One would assume to lower your fuel cost which includes lowering the road tax you pay.

Here is a good article on States that add EV taxes and how they can be higher than those paying for gas tax.
https://www.consumerreports.org/hyb...r Reports analysis,more than twice the amount.

 

[ncbill]

Why shouldn't hybrid cars that get better gas mileage have to pay a higher road tax rate or additional charge like the EV charge? Since they use less gas they are paying less gas road tax per mile driven.
Why did you buy a hybrid in the first place? One would assume to lower your fuel cost which includes lowering the road tax you pay.

Here is a good article on States that add EV taxes and how they can be higher than those paying for gas tax.
https://www.consumerreports.org/hyb...r Reports analysis,more than twice the amount.

The reality is that no passenger vehicle should be paying any road tax.

Damage to the road is caused by the weight of commercial vehicles, from a box trucks up through a tractor-trailer.

All those should pay based on the annual change in their odometer.

 

[Car-Guy]

Why shouldn't hybrid cars that get better gas mileage have to pay a higher road tax rate or additional charge like the EV charge? Since they use less gas they are paying less gas road tax per mile driven.
Why did you buy a hybrid in the first place? One would assume to lower your fuel cost which includes lowering the road tax you pay.

Here is a good article on States that add EV taxes and how they can be higher than those paying for gas tax.
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/more-states-hitting-electric-vehicle-owners-with-high-fees/#:~:text=A%20new%20Consumer%20Reports%20analysis,more%20than%20twice%20the%20amount.

I don't care about the gas mileage savings at all. I didn't buy it for the hybird capabilities either, but it's just about the only way this particular model comes these days equipped like I wanted. As I said, it's called a mild hybird.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

I don't care about the gas mileage savings at all. I didn't buy it for the hybird capabilities either, but it's just about the only way this particular model comes these days equipped like I wanted. As I said, it's called a mild hybird.

Well we could say the same thing about my Bolt EUV.... bought it for the features such as ventilated seats, great safety tech in a small fun to drive practical for us vehicle. The fact that it does not us any gas is a bonus.

Here is a good very long article on the EV road use issue.

https://pluginamerica.org/policy/ev-road-usage-fees/
Just a little something from above very detailed article....
Current EV Registration Fees
The average fuel tax in the U.S. in January 2020 was $0.25 per gallon of gasoline and $0.27 per gallon of diesel fuel. The average new light-duty car in the U.S. (most EVs are light-duty cars) had a fuel economy of 39.4 mpg in 2017. At an average of 11,467 miles per year,[1] a new gasoline-powered car would use almost 300 gallons of gasoline per year and pay about $73 in state gas taxes.[2]

Currently, 20 states have EV registration fees, ranging from $50 to $200. In states that have higher gas taxes, the $73 national average may not be the appropriate point of comparison. For example, California has an EV fee of $100, but its gas tax system means that EV drivers are not in fact paying more than comparable conventional vehicle drivers. Still, the $200 annual fee in Georgia and West Virginia is far above the annual gas tax paid by the driver of a new conventional vehicle.

New Hampshire has recognized that part of the funding shortfall in their state is indeed due to the improving fuel efficiency of new vehicles, and a proposed bill would remedy that by penalizing all efficient vehicles – including EVs. The proposed HB 478 (2019) would assess a registration fee on all vehicles based on their fuel economy, with the least efficient vehicles (20 miles per gallon or less) paying nothing and the most efficient (51 miles per gallon or more, or non-gasoline vehicles) paying $111 per year. This would be independent of actual road usage.

 

[JoeWras]

New Hampshire has recognized that part of the funding shortfall in their state is indeed due to the improving fuel efficiency of new vehicles, and a proposed bill would remedy that by penalizing all efficient vehicles – including EVs. The proposed HB 478 (2019) would assess a registration fee on all vehicles based on their fuel economy, with the least efficient vehicles (20 miles per gallon or less) paying nothing and the most efficient (51 miles per gallon or more, or non-gasoline vehicles) paying $111 per year. This would be independent of actual road usage.

One's "penalizing" is another's "equalizing."

But seriously, these numbers are not egregious - yet. Those who live in states who get hit with a yearly based-on-tax-value know just how high the fees can get.

Perhaps that is part of the solution: tax all vehicles based on value. Continue the gas tax at a lower rate (so ICErs gets an extra hit). Telsa owners pay more because they can. The somewhat mythical-in-the-usa small and cheap EV (Leaf?) pays less.

 

[Midpack]

While a fair discussion, EVs are a very small part of the problem of underfunding highway construction and maintenance - an issue decades in the making.

Many Americans believe that drivers pay the full cost of the roads they use through gas taxes and other user fees. That has never been true, and it is less true now than at any other point in modern times. In the 1960s and early 1970s, gas taxes and other fees on drivers covered more than 70% of the costs of highway construction and maintenance. The share of transportation costs covered by gasoline taxes is likely to continue to decline as a result of inflation (gas taxes are not indexed for inflation), more fuel-efficient cars, EVs, and slower growth in driving.

Although it varies dramatically among the states, in the US gas taxes only fund about one-third of the cost of construction and maintenance of state & local roads.

• 34% - Gas taxes
• 21% - License & registration fees
• 15% - Tolls
• 30% - Additional funds from state general funds - e.g. income & sales taxes.

Only 4 states raise enough revenue through gas taxes, license fees and tolls to cover their highway spending (CA, IN, TN, MT). AL and ND only cover 17% and 29% respectively.

https://taxfoundation.org/state-infrastructure-spending/

 

[Koolau]

Hawaii is unique in that it’s very difficult to drive to another state. [emoji3]. Or even other parts of the state. You folks need more bridges or maybe a hyper loop system under the ocean.

We had an amazing ferry. Drive your car onto it and take a scenic ocean voyage to the other islands. Considering that you did not need to rent a car upon arriving, it was considerably cheaper than airfare. But various environmental groups eventually killed it even though it had passed all the environmental requirements and received all the permits. A dozen people on surfboards blocked the harbor whenever the ferry tried to dock and no "officialdom" would interfere with them. The company involved must have taken a real bath considering what it cost them up front - only to be thwarted after beginning business.

(Oddly, no one has protested (that I'm aware of) the cruise lines which dock at most of the Islands over a period of a week or so. That's probably because someone's brother or cousin or aunt on the Islands makes their living from that activity.)

So, no. No one would invest in any significant alternative to air travel between islands. They've seen the results of a few environmentalists and the shrugging political types.

But I'm not bitter.

Returning you now...

 

[JoeWras]

We had an amazing ferry. Drive your car onto it and take a scenic ocean voyage to the other islands.

Please don't tell anybody, but NC has a fantastic state-run ferry system. The trip from Hatteras to Ocracoke is free. It is the best ride or attraction on the outer banks you can take. All courtesy the tax payers of NC.

The longer rides across the sound are modest in price and are simply amazing when the surf is calm, the sun is bright and the winds are light.

I have literally driven to the outer banks to make the ferry trips part of my experience for a long day joy ride.

But don't tell anyone about this. We don't want to be overrun with tourists!

 

[Koolau]

Please don't tell anybody, but NC has a fantastic state-run ferry system. The trip from Hatteras to Ocracoke is free. It is the best ride or attraction on the outer banks you can take. All courtesy the tax payers of NC.

The longer rides across the sound are modest in price and are simply amazing when the surf is calm, the sun is bright and the winds are light.

I have literally driven to the outer banks to make the ferry trips part of my experience for a long day joy ride.

But don't tell anyone about this. We don't want to be overrun with tourists!

Heh, heh, the only time I got a "free ride" like that was when we accidentally "chose wisely" and drove from San Diego to San Ysidro (with stop in TJ) and back up the Coronado coast to Coronado. Whereupon, we took the Coronado bridge back to San Diego. Heh, heh, that direction was free. Going the other was was a toll. Gotta get lucky once in a while.

Returning you (finally) now...

 

[REWahoo]

Chevy’s Not Taking Any Chances With Bolt Battery Packs

Interesting article about a "Battery Danger" message that appeared on a 2023 Bolt EUV, which has the new, post-recall battery. This happened while the EV was off, not charging and was accompanied by an alarm that the EV owner said they could not turn off.

Given the history of Bolt and Bolt EUV vehicles, this “battery danger” message, accompanied by an alarm that can’t be turned off, sounds absolutely frightening.

The new Bolt battery packs haven’t had any widespread problems, but it’s not safe to assume that the improved cells will always be perfect. So, it’s informative to learn about the first faulty battery we know of post-recall.

The car was towed to the dealer and it was determined by the local tech and an engineer GM sent to look at it that it needed a new battery pack.

The author goes on to discuss how this battery warning system was one of the positive things to come out of the massive $2B Bolt battery recall by GM and LG, who manufactured the batteries.

Like all vehicle designs, this message that GM’s EVs can give us when there’s danger of fire came from experience. As the old saying goes, “Good judgment comes from experience, which comes from bad judgment.” GM’s experience with an expensive and awful fire recall was not only bad press, but cost the company some serious cash. So, you can bet that such an experience is something they’re very committed to not repeating in the future.

...[GM] found a way for the battery management system and the vehicle’s computer to work together to watch for unusual voltages and perhaps other electrical readings (resistance, etc.). If things get too far outside of normal limits, the vehicle sets off an alarm and warns people to stay away from it until someone can check it out and make sure everything is OK or repair it if it’s not.

 

[Koolau]

Chevy’s Not Taking Any Chances With Bolt Battery Packs

Interesting article about a "Battery Danger" message that appeared on a 2023 Bolt EUV, which has the new, post-recall battery. This happened while the EV was off, not charging and was accompanied by an alarm that the EV owner said they could not turn off.



The car was towed to the dealer and it was determined by the local tech and an engineer GM sent to look at it that it needed a new battery pack.

The author goes on to discuss how this battery warning system was one of the positive things to come out of the massive $2B Bolt battery recall by GM and LG, who manufactured the batteries.

It's not clear to me, the car was towed, but I assume one COULD still drive the car.? Is the "warning" sufficient that folks would not park their car in a structure.?

I'd hate to get that message in the middle of West Nowhere, 50 miles from a warm room when it's snowing outside and 9 degrees. I'd at least want the option to continue driving. Then if the car catches fire, one could stand outside and warm themselves until some motorist came along and (hopefully) stop to see what was going on.

I can just imagine a sales brochure extolling the advantage of their car over other EVs.

"Never worry about being stranded in the cold if your battery goes nuclear - at least you'll be warm! Our cars will burn for over 2 hours so you'll be nice and toasty warm."

 

[REWahoo]

It's not clear to me, the car was towed, but I assume one COULD still drive the car.?

I understand the warning disables the car's drive system, not the 12v system. The owner was able to put the car in neutral and push it out of their garage.

Is the "warning" sufficient that folks would not park their car in a structure.?

Not sure I understand your question as I see it as a personal choice. My choice is to park and charge my Bolt in my garage.

The article points out this is the first known incidence of this "battery warning" in any of the new Bolt replacement batteries. It also notes this:

Fire recalls are fairly common in ICE vehicles, and EVs are about 20 times less likely to catch fire.

We have always parked our ICE cars in our garage and continue to do so.

 

[REWahoo]

I can just imagine a sales brochure extolling the advantage of their car over other EVs.

"Every new Bolt comes with a complimentary one-year supply of marshmallows!"

 

[Koolau]

\


Not sure I understand your question as I see it as a personal choice. My choice is to park and charge my Bolt in my garage.

Sorry my question was unclear. I was wondering if the warning shouldn't be more like "Get this car out of any structure in case it catches fire."

Apparently, you can push it but not drive it in case it's in your garage and you get the warning. Thanks for the clarification.