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- Apr 14, 2006
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All human beings are by nature selfish. ER's are human beings and are therefore selfish, but no more and no less than anyone else.
bongo2 said:I want to get straight what I mean by retirement. Technically you can say things like “Bob retired from his job as a lawyer to teach starving children in
Okay, so not being able-bodied is an exception, and it’s not leaving paid employment as such that’s bad, but having too many ‘leisure’ activities. I’ll get back to that idea later.bongo2 said:Africa,” or “Bob retired early from his job as a mover after his eighth heart attack left him unable to lift heavy objects.” The ER we are generally discussing around here is someone who is perfectly able to work deciding to leave their job in order to pursue “leisure” activities.
Side question: I’m curious, what are these ‘more obligations than most here’?bongo2 said:I am not retired, but do plan on leaving my current job well before age 50, despite the fact that I have more obligations than most others here. I’ve wrestled with how to balance my obligations, my willingness to take on new obligations, and my own self-interest. I hang around here (and this is the only internet forum I frequent) because, despite my concerns about the ethics, there is a lot of stuff here I do find useful.
True, but there is still unemployment, and ERing from a job that will be backfilled does free up the position for someone else, and so on, until an unemployed person becomes employed. I think your argument looks more convincing in a time with low unemployment (like now in the US) than high unemployment (like during the Depression in the US). Even if unemployment is not directly reduced, the person stepping into the vacated job is likely being promoted and thus contributing more. I don’t see a fallacy.bongo2 said:The idea occasionally is put forth that giving up your job is good because someone else is then allowed to take it. The fallacy here is that we do not have a fixed number of jobs in our society or even a fixed number of good jobs.
And I disagree that consuming is not contributing, provided the consumer pays for the consumption himself. Without consumption, there is no reason to produce. Also, taxes are contributing. Also, invested capital is contributing. Aenlighten said it better than me:bongo2 said:Also people confuse consuming with contributing. You contribute by producing.
aenlighten said:It is not through labor alone we are productive. Saving is itself not selfish. It is a choice that most of us through our hard work and accumulation have arrived at this point. We are productive in many other ways. We are productive through our saving, our capital, our investing. We may not have jobs, but our capital provides them. We may not produce ourselves, but our capital can and does. I realize you don't value this, but it is every bit as necessary as more hands at the till.
How? How how how? Show me the direct and oblique detriment to others.bongo2 said:There have been a couple comments that, while ER is self interested, it is not detrimental to others, and therefore not selfish. I tried to address this before, and it is not clear if you are disagreeing with me, or I simply didn’t make myself clear. ER is detrimental to others both directly and obliquely. It is not hugely detrimental, it is not evil, but it is detrimental.
Dropping out of society? Where did that come from? Let’s say my nest egg is big enough tomorrow and I ER. I still consume and pay for my own consumption. I still pay taxes. I still interact with and help my family and neighbors, perhaps more since I have more time available. I simply don’t go to work anymore. I don’t agree that that’s dropping out of society.bongo2 said:We all depend on the work of others, and by dropping out of society you are not holding up your end of the bargain.
And so, if you contribute enough (though demanding service), you can retire and it’s not detrimental. I also notice that you haven’t claimed that retirement at normal age is detrimental, it’s the early part you take issue with. I assume that’s because a person is credited with having produced ‘enough’. Again I claim that saving enough to retire on demonstrates having produced enough.bongo2 said:In our society, allowances are made for people like police, firefighters, and the military. There is a reason why; those jobs have always been assumed to be too demanding for a lifetime of service. Whether that is true today, or applies to the desk-bound versions, is another story, but we have that tradition.
What good reason? State it.bongo2 said:No one should be forced to work, and no one is expected to work beyond their ability. But when someone is perfectly able to work, and they simply chose not to do so, then people disapprove, and for good reason.
It looks to me that your objection boils down to the idea that people should be doing something ‘important’ rather than something ‘frivolous’. Unless they’ve already done enough ‘important’ things (military job, being of a certain age).bongo2 said:Some good points: why does there have to be a relationship between money earned and the merit of the way you spend your time? Isn’t some unpaid work more “virtuous” than some paid work? Yes! I totally agree and said so in my original post. When someone stops work to raise a family or join the peace corps do we say they “retired?” Not typically. When you say you’re retiring you are implying that you are not leaving your job to work in a more altruistic fashion, but rather to do work on something like your golf game. If someone is retiring early because they have found something more important to do, rather than something more frivolous to do, then they should say so and avoid the stigma.
Yeah, I'm not buying this whole shtick. It's that holier than thou thing that makes me wonder. My guess is still that he is frustrated with being unable to FIRE so he's re-casting it as something vaguely immoral or self-serving. B+ for troll value, though.
I'm moving on to more existential and philosophical threads, like the booze thread.
When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one Talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts.
Who best Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best.
His state Is kingly: thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."
John Milton (1608-1674) On his Blindness
While I agree with your statement, this irritates me, as bongo2 never made the claim that paid work is the only way to contribute to society (not quite the same thing as contributing to the economy, but still I don't think you're arguing against a position that he's taken).Not everything that contributes to the economy is paid work. Not by a long shot.
Now, I disagree with his stated position that ERing to a life of leisure is detrimental to society. But let's argue against what he actually claims.bongo2 said:I want to get straight what I mean by retirement. Technically you can say things like “Bob retired from his job as a lawyer to teach starving children in Africa,”
[snip]
If you are leaving your job to pursue a higher calling then I think it is misleading to say you are “retiring”
All human beings are by nature selfish. ER's are human beings and are therefore selfish, but no more and no less than anyone else.
Most activity that people do is selfish, the exception are rare enough that you can pretty much list them.
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For example, why someone with $100 million invested and golfing 40 hours a week is detrimental to others while the same person working at a minimum-wage job in a fast-food restaurant 40 hours a week is a productive member of society is beyond me.
For example, why someone with $100 million invested and golfing 40 hours a week is detrimental to others while the same person working at a minimum-wage job in a fast-food restaurant 40 hours a week is a productive member of society is beyond me.
I feel no angst that I decided to take the money and run. I do not feel unproductive; I don't think I'm a freeloader, and I could care less if someone thinks ill of me as the checks pour in.
Hi all! I've piped up a few times before, and I thought I'd introduce myself. I think I'm quite a bit younger than most of you (33) and still working with three young children (all under 5). I have a typical desk job, and my wife stays at home. I dream of FI/RE, but, like the typical family, saving money was a lot easier when it was Double Income No Kids, rather than Single Income Three Kids. With the wife and kids sending our expenses up rapidly, the dream seems farther and farther away each year. This year was particularly bad, with a move to a higher-priced neighborhood, and an almost endless stream of large expenses that went with it. In the next two years I hope to get back to saving significantly (something that I used to do easily, but haven’t been able to manage for the last two years).
Nope, I don't know Jarhead*. Members List shows the last time he posted before today was on 5/19/07, before I signed up.Jarhead, Is that you?
Evidently the golfing weather in Jarhead's neck of the woods is lousy since he (or someone claiming to be him) reappeared from the mists and posted this quote:
This certainly lends credence to RIT's sour grape theory as the motivation behind this thread.Originally Posted by bongo2
Hi all! I've piped up a few times before, and I thought I'd introduce myself. I think I'm quite a bit younger than most of you (33) and still working with three young children (all under 5). I have a typical desk job, and my wife stays at home. I dream of FI/RE, but, like the typical family, saving money was a lot easier when it was Double Income No Kids, rather than Single Income Three Kids. With the wife and kids sending our expenses up rapidly, the dream seems farther and farther away each year. This year was particularly bad, with a move to a higher-priced neighborhood, and an almost endless stream of large expenses that went with it. In the next two years I hope to get back to saving significantly (something that I used to do easily, but haven’t been able to manage for the last two years).