Another bad PenFed customer experience.

[Sarah in SC]

Psssst....Mike....Chase Sapphire Preferred.
That's what I switched to, though I'll grab that same thing with PenFed before I bail completely.

 

[MikeD]

Thanks, Sarah, I take a look at them.

Mike D.

 

[Nords]

As mentioned earlier, a couple of the posters have suggested that I give PenFed another chance at starting up an account for Dad with me as conservator.

I've mailed off a snail-mail letter to PenFed's Alexandria address with copies of the letter from their Eugene branch, and an updated copy of my conservator's letter. I didn't address it to anyone in particular like "CEO", but we'll see how they do.

 

[Surfdaddy]

As posted about a year ago (at the time), I also had a very bad PenFed experience.

We had a 3 year CD of around $60K which we started when we joined. I sent in the paperwork and forms. I went online periodically to look at the balance, but had no other transactions.

One day I go online and the account has no money in it! So after a bunch of calls and emails, they had "escheated" the account, which means it had gone dormant! They had my correct address but mis-entered the zip by a digit and had my city in a neighboring city. Even though they had my email and I had logged on only a couple of months earlier, they had closed the account and were preparing to send my money to the state!

It was only luck that got it reversed as the transfer had not yet occurred. They later admitted that it was an error. I still have that account with PenFed, and at least annually I transfer a few $$ into the share account to keep it active. But I view them with a bit of suspicion and keep my eyes on them like a hawk.

 

[nwsteve]

There was an article in WSJ about a month ago advising readers to be aware many states had shorten the time and tightened reasons requiring financial and others holding property to turn assets over to state (escheatment).
Article advised increasing personal discipline in visiting safe deposit boxes at least annually, as well as creating some sort of active interaction on all financial positions(eg voting proxies, funds transfers, etc).
This need may be particularly relevant for those with older parents who may have forgotten accounts. I had to reclaim a sizable demutualization payment owed my deceased mother from AZ despite her having mail forwarding of record and paying state income tax--hardly missing.
Nwsteve

 

[Mulligan]

There was an article in WSJ about a month ago advising readers to be aware many states had shorten the time and tightened reasons requiring financial and others holding property to turn assets over to state (escheatment).
Article advised increasing personal discipline in visiting safe deposit boxes at least annually, as well as creating some sort of active interaction on all financial positions(eg voting proxies, funds transfers, etc).
This need may be particularly relevant for those with older parents who may have forgotten accounts. I had to reclaim a sizable demutualization payment owed my deceased mother from AZ despite her having mail forwarding of record and paying state income tax--hardly missing.
Nwsteve

That word "escheatment" seems very appropriate to its actions of trying to cheat you out of your money and give it to the state. I got a long inactive account of over 15 years in a bank across the state. I have no online access to the CDs or Roth. I will make sure to check my quarterly mailed statements closely.

 

[Nords]

Article advised increasing personal discipline in visiting safe deposit boxes at least annually, as well as creating some sort of active interaction on all financial positions(eg voting proxies, funds transfers, etc).
This need may be particularly relevant for those with older parents who may have forgotten accounts. I had to reclaim a sizable demutualization payment owed my deceased mother from AZ despite her having mail forwarding of record and paying state income tax--hardly missing.

Another problem is changes of address.

At first I had my Dad's local post office just forward his mail. Of course that's only good for a few months, but I was reasonably confident that I was getting all of the mail that the USPS got. When I changed my Dad's mailing address to Hawaii (using the USPS system), then some of the correspondence dropped off due to "do not forward" statements on the envelopes. (Yeah, I don't understand the difference either.) I had to track those companies down one at a time to change the old address to the new.

Ironically, all of Dad's unsolicited mail and magazines immediately made the switch. In fact, since the USPS sells the change-of-address information, his bulk mail made a prompt jump in quantity.

My Dad and my college daughter each get more mail in "my" mailbox than my spouse and I combined.

 

[Nords]

Here's the text of the letter I wrote to PenFed:

To: Pentagon Federal Credit Union
Box 1432
Alexandria, VA 22313-2032

Subj: Opening a CD account as a conservator

PenFed,

I'm the conservator for my father, and I've been seeking better CD rates for his fixed-income asset allocation. I've been a happy PenFed CD customer for several years, so I decided to open an account for Dad. Several months ago I mailed my court appointment and my conservator's letter to the Eugene branch and asked to have an account set up in my father's name.

To my surprise, I received the enclosed letter from Mr. ... It asked me to complete section 4A of the application as "Guardian" and "joint owner". I can't do that. My father is technically a ward, but I'm his conservator. (My brother is Dad's guardian.) I am not joint owner of any of Dad's assets-- I'm only investing them for him. With other financial institutions, I've been given a separate account in the name of Dean Nordman with authorized access under his login (as conservator) or with my own login. At these institutions, I've signed the applications as "Doug Nordman, Conservator".

I was a little confused by Mr. ...'s request for an "original notarized copy of the court documents appointing me as Guardian". I've already sent PenFed the court order and my conservator's letter of appointment from the Denver probate court. It's based on the order of the probate judge, and the letter of appointment is signed by the clerk of the court. The court did not distribute an "original notarized copy of the court documents", and frankly "original copy" sounds a little contradictory. I've provided everything that I was given by the court. I don't have what Mr. ... is asking for, and I'm not sure that it can be obtained.

When I called Mr. ... to discuss these questions, he told me "This is the way we do it" and "The probate court doesn't care". He also pointed out that my appointment letter expired in a few months and that he wouldn't be able to accept it. I didn't care to explain to him that the Denver probate court re-issues annual appointment letters to ensure that conservators file their annual reports.

During this discouraging conversation, I decided that I wasn't comfortable working with Mr. ... However in March a good friend of mine relayed my story to a PenFed customer service department and suggested that I might hear from PenFed. Now that some time has passed without any response from PenFed, perhaps it's worth trying this again.

Based on the "guardian" error in Mr. Vogt's PenFed letter, there may be some confusion over the nature of my appointment and the authority of a court order. I'd appreciate it if you'd figure out a way for me to open a share account in the name of my father with me as conservator. When the account is open, I'd like to electronically transfer funds from Dad's Fidelity brokerage account and buy CDs.

The probate court has approved my conservator's report and issued a new letter effective through April 2013. I've enclosed a copy. I expect to receive these letters each year in February or March, and if necessary I'm happy to provide updated copies for PenFed's files.

Please let me know how you'd like to proceed. Thanks,

Here's the response from a "Research Analyst" in the Accounts Servicing Branch.

This is in response to recent correspondence regarding establishing an account for your father and adding you as the conservator of that account.

Please be advised that the enclosed Membership Application must be completed in the name of your father. It is not necessary for you to sign as the joint owner, unless this is what you and your father elect to do. We do however require the Letters of Conservatorship to be certified/notarized per our legal department.

Just in case I was having trouble parsing PenFed's response, my conservator's appointment letter was returned with a little strip of paper stapled to it:

Please have this document stamped by a notary public certifying it was copied from the original letter of conservatorship.

I apparently don't understand what a notary does to legitimize a piece of paper that pops out of my scanner/printer, or the ones that pop out of the printers at the probate court. Maybe I should take my hardware to the notary, too, and just have them certify that they're capable of making copies of original documents.

I think I've given PenFed more than enough opportunities to understand what I want to do. I think I'm being told that I'm not the kind of customer that they want to service. I certainly did not receive this type of treatment from American National Bank (a Colorado regional bank) or USAA. Of course PenFed pays slightly higher CD rates than USAA (and a lot higher than ANB), but it's no longer worth the pain.

I guess the good news with PenFed is that they've displayed their true abilities in this manner well in advance of my giving them any of Dad's money, instead of having this problem crop up later... "later" as in "every year that I get a new appointment letter from the probate court".

Tomorrow I'm going to send a fresh copy of my letter to Navy Federal Credit Union. Let's see how NFCU does... maybe in another 3-4 months those ANB CDs will be lookin' pretty hot by comparison.

"What do I do all freakin' day" indeed...

 

[nwsteve]

Geeze Nords, if I hadn't checked the title of your thread, I would have thought this was a "conversation" with a Vanguard CSR regarding a request beyond "vanilla".
(see 72t thread)
;-)
Nw

 

[Katsmeow]

I apparently don't understand what a notary does to legitimize a piece of paper that pops out of my scanner/printer, or the ones that pop out of the printers at the probate court.

This probably varies according to each state in terms of what it is called. But, around here, what you would probably be asking for from the court (or the court clerk) would be a certified copy.

That is a copy which the court clerk certifies to be a real copy of the original.

 

[Nords]

Geeze Nords, if I hadn't checked the title of your thread, I would have thought this was a "conversation" with a Vanguard CSR regarding a request beyond "vanilla".
(see 72t thread)
;-)
Nw

Yep. And if that poster had continued with Vanguard, they would have made him notarize all his account statements, too!

I was treated so well by USAA that I let myself get all giddy with excitement and go for broke with PenFed. Between our Nords ER CD ladder and our daughter's college fund at PenFed, we've entrusted those guys with a pretty significant slice of our net worth. Apparently that's not gonna happen with Dad's money.

Joking aside, I was hoping that PenFed would just do the conservator account setup and turn me over to their website. This is what I get for doing the right thing instead of just forging my father's signature on the applications.

I've been using USAA's website for CDs for the last few months and it's been painless. As you know from at least one other of my PenFed threads (http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/whaddaya-do-all-day-penfed-mortgage-refinance-53681.html), the worst part of PenFed's customer-service experience is having to deal with their customer-service staff.

Hence my lack of sympathy for those who get exactly the Vanguard customer service that they're paying for.

 

[braumeister]

Sorry you've had to put up with all this.
My experience with PenFed over the last 29 years has been great. A few problems, but every time I've spoken to someone on the phone they have been unfailingly polite, professional, and friendly. Never any need for a second phone call. Maybe I was just lucky.

To avoid the sort of situation you're in, I was also lucky from the start. When my mother decided she was no longer ambitious enough to handle her own finances, she asked me to just take them over and pay her bills for her. I set up joint accounts in her name as primary and me as joint tenant with right of survivorship at PenFed and Fidelity. Smooth sailing. Your setup is more complicated than I would have had patience for, so I feel for you.

 

[friar1610]

Nords, I would send a letter to the president of the credit union. They should know about this.

You are making me glad I found a backdoor to sneak into Navy Fed.

Interesting comment, Brewer. My wife and I are thinking about relocating during the next year or so and I've been doing a bit of preliminary research on mortgages on the web. The main sites I have looked at were NFCU and PenFed. I've had two mortgages with NFCU in the past (the latter one re-fi'd twice) and use them as my primary "bank" for all other financial services. I've had a few CDs with PenFed but nothing else. My satisfaction level with NFCU has been pretty high over 40+ years of dealing with them. So I guess it'll make sense for me to stick with them if I go through with this.

 

[brewer12345]

Interesting comment, Brewer. My wife and I are thinking about relocating during the next year or so and I've been doing a bit of preliminary research on mortgages on the web. The main sites I have looked at were NFCU and PenFed. I've had two mortgages with NFCU in the past (the latter one re-fi'd twice) and use them as my primary "bank" for all other financial services. I've had a few CDs with PenFed but nothing else. My satisfaction level with NFCU has been pretty high over 40+ years of dealing with them. So I guess it'll make sense for me to stick with them if I go through with this.

Navy seems to be slightly more old fashioned and perhaps a bit stuck in the mud, but I had no complaints with the CDs I opened a couple years ago or the auto loan I did early this year. I will keep using both, especially as Pen Fed makes the occasional mistake to my benefit, like the 10 year 5% CD fiasco of a couple years ago.

 

[Nords]

Interesting comment, Brewer. My wife and I are thinking about relocating during the next year or so and I've been doing a bit of preliminary research on mortgages on the web. The main sites I have looked at were NFCU and PenFed.

I see them as the banking version of the dichotomy of Fidelity and Vanguard.

If I want service then I go with NFCU, but I either pay more or earn less.

If I want to earn more (or pay less) then I go with PenFed, but I don't expect any service.

However the analogy breaks down because not even Vanguard is this bad. Lately I've been even more unpleasantly surprised with the penalty of PenFed's hassle factor. The more I can do through their website, and the less through any of their customer service reps, the happier I am.

It's one thing for a mortgage lender or a banker to overlook something, either through overwork or ignorance or by sheer accident. It's another thing entirely for them to actively screw up the process...

 

[braumeister]

I see them as the banking version of the dichotomy of Fidelity and Vanguard.

If I want service then I go with NFCU, but I either pay more or earn less.

If I want to earn more (or pay less) then I go with PenFed, but I don't expect any service.

It's remarkable that my experience has been the exact opposite. In fact, the service I got from NFCU was so terrible that I recently closed my accounts with them.

This shows the problem with overgeneralizing, since our perception only reflects our own peculiar experiences.

 

[Nords]

It's remarkable that my experience has been the exact opposite. In fact, the service I got from NFCU was so terrible that I recently closed my accounts with them.
This shows the problem with overgeneralizing, since our perception only reflects our own peculiar experiences.

If I had more bad experiences from NFCU, or more good experiences from PenFed, then I'd be more balanced in my expectations.

I think that I should base my perception on my experiences, not on the experiences of a bunch of other people who do not share my situation.

... he said as he waited for NFCU to approve his father's application for an account.

 

[braumeister]

I think that I should base my perception on my experiences, not on the experiences of a bunch of other people who do not share my situation.

Which was my point, poorly conveyed.

 

[Gumby]

One more data point for those who might be interested -- I recently refinanced my mortgage into a PenFed home equity loan (5yr/1.99%). The transaction was easy and I had no problems with their customer service. I recognize, however, that a refinance is a standard run-of-the-mill thing for them. They might well falter in the face of a more complex and unusual situation; I can't say from my limited experience.

 

[deserat]

Nords,

I know I've ranted about PenFed in an earlier thread - I don't use my accounts there at all, but do have some money there. The distaste in my mouth of what they did to me and being stranded in west Tx hoping for gas just sent me over the edge. Then the interaction with the customer service rep just added fuel to that fire. USAA has been much easier to deal with for everything - and recently Vanguard was pretty good, although both VG and USAA are driving me up a wall when I call them as I have to tell them every personal detail for them to verify that I am who I am.

So colored me unsurprised at their behavior.....

 

[Nords]

I'm cautiously optimistic with NFCU. So far I've been able to do it all online, and they've opened a share savings account (with $5 transferred from Dad's checking account at another bank). They're going to open a no-fee checking account so that I can transfer money (from his other bank and from his Fidelity mortgage) to buy CDs.

I don't know why he needs a checking account to transfer the money, but that seems to be the rule. No fees so far.

NFCU also has a rule that you have to have an account open for at least 90 days before you can deposit by scanner. But once I can use my scanner to deposit Dad's long-term care checks, that'd save me some time & postage over Fidelity.

During the months that I've spent screwing around with PenFed, NFCU has pulled (very slightly) ahead in CD rates. So maybe this will all work out for the better.