Anyone else fed up of saving money for ER/FI?

[Sam]

And then I look at the board and read the "hi I am" sectiion and think well whats the point anyway of saving when people are asking if 2 million is enough

Claire, you are not alone.  Each person has a different need.  The range is so wide that it makes almost no sense to be bothered by other people's numbers.  What is important is your own number.  If you know you need X amount of money to live a year, then you know you need to save 20X to 25X.

As far as frugality is concerned, a balance is to be found.  Again, only you can determine where that line is.  Don't feel bad if you have to move that line a little to the left or to the right every now and then.  After all, it makes very little difference if the retirement date is a year or two later than planned.

Saving is good, but should never be the only priority.  Anyway, just so you know you're not the only person feeling this way.

Sam

 

[Leonidas]

Perhaps some of that has to do with comparisons. I find myself slipping and comparing myself to the yuppies I w*rk with. I have to stop and remind myslef that one, possibly the only, thing I have in common with them is the place that signs our paycheck. But considering how much time I spend here around them, I find myself comparing their lavish lifestyles to my own, and its not healthy.

I live in "live beyond your means" Yuppieville. Moved here before it was fashionable, chic, or too expensive and got a great deal. But, while there are a fair number of down-to-earth realists, we are covered up in more than our share of yups. When they started building their mega mansions and driving their Porsches and H2's everywhere I kept asking myself "how do this many people have this much money?" After a few years of being around them I figured it out - they are all leveraged to the max and they have squat set aside for retirement. If they miss a couple of paychecks they are screwed.

It's funny (and a little sad) to watch them struggle with money sometimes. The number of failed business ventures I've been "invited" to invest in are in the bazillions (there's that word again). All fell flat on their faces because everybody thought they knew more than they really did and they were all counting their profits before they ever put in the work. Tell them I'm retired at 45 and I bask in the glow of their hatred, envy and confusion.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Boy did this thread hit home with me, in that I've been asking myself the same question for years (see some of my previous posts). 

I live in an area where the main sport is keeping up with the Joneses.  Everyone who is anyone "needs" a Lexus or a BMW (5-Series or better, of course, although the junior lawyers and lobbyists can "get by" with a 3-Series).  As a lawyer in my mid-30s, I've been feeling the "appear successful" pressure for the last 6-7 years, primarily in the form of getting a new car (either a Lexus or a BMW), a townhouse in a wealthier part of town, Brooks Brothers suits, expensive ties, shoes, shirts, etc....

Yet despite all of the foregoing, I've resisted the pressure until just recently.  I bought the new car...but it wasn't a Lexus or a BMW.  It's a Honda Accord.  Mind you, it has all of the same bells and whistles as the foregoing cars, but was half the price (and I paid cash).  Guess what?  People are still impressed.  In fact, some are even congratulating me on buying such a nice car for the money.  It makes me wonder whether they question their purchases of so-called "status" vehicles when they could have bought a Honda instead.

Back to the question at hand.  In making the foregoing purchase, I knew that I could have repaired my old car, which has 3-4 years of life left in it.  Although sinking more money into an old car was a consideration, the primary consideration was the fact that I realized that a new car would give me a great deal of satisfaction and enjoyment.  I wouldn't waste my Saturday mornings waiting at a car repair shop, I wouldn't be concerned about driving a "beater" in a high-status area, and I would actually enjoy the long drive to work.  That's the key to knowing where the line between saving and spending is -- whether spending will make your life easier and more enjoyable.  I'm not talking about the momentary enjoyment associated with purchasing something out of the ordinary (eg, a new purse you don't really need, a new watch, etc...)  Rather, if spending money on something makes your life easier and enjoyable -- and you've done your homework to get the best deal possible -- then you should spend the money without a second thought.

Think about it this way.  You could hire a maid to clean your house, send your shirts/pants to the dry cleaners to be ironed and pressed, hire a part-time nanny for your kids, etc...  Each of these expenditures makes your life easier and allows you to enjoy the best luxury of all -- free time.  Life is about maximizing the amount of time you spend on things you enjoy doing.  If spending money will help you do so, and it makes sound financial sense to you, then go for it.

 

[HobbyDave]

I was using round numbers for the sake of simplicity. We do save ~$60k/yr, but our total income is a little higher than $100k due to a few things I make money from on the side (outside of the 9-5 job). Taxes are much smaller - around $13000-$14000/yr total including FICA. I'm a good tax planner. Not sure how much we spend, probably $30-40k/yr depending on what you consider an expenditure.

Ok, I'm really curious. I understand tax planning to a certain level.. I max out our 401k's, which lowers my wife and my incomes, but only to a certain point. You could lower your taxes further by donating a lot, but you're claiming to save ~60k (and taxes and expenses cover the rest), so how exactly are you lowering your taxes so far? Just a curious person in your tax bracket.

 

[justin]

Ok, I'm really curious. I understand tax planning to a certain level.. I max out our 401k's, which lowers my wife and my incomes, but only to a certain point. You could lower your taxes further by donating a lot, but you're claiming to save ~60k (and taxes and expenses cover the rest), so how exactly are you lowering your taxes so far? Just a curious person in your tax bracket.

$25-30k into 401k's, $8k into traditional IRA's. ~$5000 into a flexible spending account (free from state, fed and FICA). Pretax dollars pay for family's health insurance and dental insurance. Tax harvesting for capital losses. 2 kids (2 extra personal exemptions, 2 child tax credits). Add in 2 personal exemptions for wife and I, and the $10k standard deduction, and we're only paying tax on ~$30k of income. Then take off the $2000 worth of federal child tax credits and you're talking about a federal income tax bill of around $2k.

State tax for me is a bigger burden. I feel like I'm missing some other little tricks I have since my tax planning spreadsheet is at home.

You might note that I don't like paying tax.

 

[New Thinking]

This is my biggest concern with the SWR of 4%..It requires a much bigger nest egg because one is self-insuring..For those that are struggling to get a big enough nest egg to retire, annuitizing makes the process easier due to the risk-pooling. Age 62 -$40,000 SWR ignoring expenses means $1 million nest egg. Age 62 - $40,000 inflation indexed annuity today on Vanguard's site for a male = $709,000. That's approximately 29% less to save..Obviously, this ignores the potential to leave an inheritance, but many ERs probably just want to secure their own retirement...Just food for thought.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

This is my biggest concern with the SWR of 4%..It requires a much bigger nest egg because one is self-insuring..For those that are struggling to get a big enough nest egg to retire, annuitizing makes the process easier due to the risk-pooling. Age 62 -$40,000 SWR ignoring expenses means $1 million nest egg. Age 62 - $40,000 inflation indexed annuity today on Vanguard's site for a male = $709,000.   That's approximately 29% less to save..Obviously, this ignores the potential to leave an inheritance, but many ERs probably just want to secure their own retirement...Just food for thought.

Search the forums for several recent topics which address this. Most here oppose annuities in any shape or form. Almost all oppose variable annuities.

But there are some, myself included, who definitely are considering up to 20-25% of nest egg in an immediate annuity in retirement, probably put off for a good while -- closer to 65 in my case. The arguments are well detailed elsewhere.

I've not heard anyone favor putting your whole nest egg in annuities. Too much risk re: inflation, insurer solvency over decades, etc. Search -- you'll find more than you care to read here. Bottom line,  it's a sound idea for some though not popular around here. Makes good volatility / longevity insurance, too.

 

[heyyou]

I believe Scott Burns had an example of an annuity ladder from purchasing several over a period of years.  Spreads some of the inflation risk and the pay-out goes up since you are older each time. 

 

[TargaDave]

Hey, that's sort of me. Fond memories of being 25 and flying down the highway in my Oh-so-nice silver 78 911SC Targa stuffed to the brim with windsurfing gear. It's how I met DW . Picked up a pristine red 89 Targa 15 years later. My kids loved it, but it just didn't feel the same and had zero practicality. Now I'm happy as a clam with a nice little all-weather WRX stuffed to brim with kids or kitesurfing gear. I guess it's hard to figure out the perfect balance, so I just experiment without breaking the bank and have fun along the way.

"Targa"Dave


Hi Targa,

Last fall I was in a wreck that totaled my Integra GSR. I wasn't feeling very good when I went shopping for a replacement car. My kids said, Dad if you are going to buy a Subaru, get the STi, or the WRX. For me it would have to be the WRX, because I need the roofline of a wagon. The post accident caution caused me to underestimate my pleasure in handling and speed, and I bought the Impreza 2.5i instead of the WRX. Big mistake! It is a nice car, but for $5 or $6K more I could have had a lot more push on the back with the WRX. How do you like yours?

I may trade in a year or so. What I would really like is a Porsche Cayman. But as you say, how practical is that?

Ha

Ha, Couldn't be happier with my WRX. It provides winter time security, kid-thing hauling practicality and summer time fun. One summer I threw on some coil-over shocks, performance wheels-tires, and a are-mapped chip and went autocrossing. Had a blast and no problem beating the $50k M3's and Boxster S's.

Those Caymans do look nice but I have to admit, when I owned 911's I was always washing, waxing, storing for the winter, and general babying. With my ugly little Subi I just change the oil and drive. Never waxed it once.

Splurge and be practical all at the same time (the theme of this thread, right?). I say go for the WRX wagon

 

[donheff]

Targa - I noted that you switched from windsurfing to kitesurfing. I've been windsurfing since 1986 but I have slacked way off the last few years (I'm 58 now). Ever since I saw John Kerry kitesurfing I have been scratching an itch to give it a try. How would you compare it in difficulty to windsurfing? I am basically a lousy athlete with determination. It took me forever to get good at windsurfing and I still blow most of my jibes.

 

[kat]

I have a Honda Accord. Jay, don't over play that sense of having to live up to some social standard as a lawyer. You'll find that people have a lot respect for you just for who you are.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Hi, Claire,

I share your frustrations. I will never have 1 mil, let alone 2.

One thing that distresses me in my mid-50's is that I don't know how long I will live or keep my health. You are probably thinking the same thing. When should I stop and enjoy what I can? That is the big gamble.

It is possible to enjoy life without spending very much, but it sure is hard when we are still on the treadmill.

Al the best,

Ed

 

[CCdaCE]

Now I'm happy as a clam with a nice little all-weather WRX stuffed to brim with kids or kitesurfing gear.  I guess it's hard to figure out the perfect balance, so I just experiment without breaking the bank and have fun along the way.

"Targa"Dave

Mmmmmm, WRX, *Salivate*.  I was going to get an SVX about 5 yrs. ago, but The Blond had to have more "practicality".  So I took too many steps down to a Legacy.  It's still fun to have Nokian Hakkapelitta Q's (unidirectional snow tires) on in the winter and speed around on snowy roads in AWD.

I'd consider the WRX as a step UP from the Porsche, but I've never driven a Porsche... just ridden in one old one.

...so... yeah, save first, spend the rest - don't worry about saving MORE after you've already saved... I find that driving me nuts when I try it.

-CC

 

[aaronc879]

There's nothing wrong with the new Legacy GT. It looks like an Accord but has WRX performance.