Apple v FBI

Jack_Pine said:
"Hello, Apple. FBI here. Never mind..................."

Allegedly FBI is saying the may have a way to break the phone without help from Apple. Apple said that if true, it is hoping the FBI will share the methodology. Like that is going to happen.
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But wasn't this an older iPhone, that might be a little easier to load a new OS (GovtOS) onto? And if, (big if), it is the phone software that slows down response to wrong guesses, and the FBI figured out how to load a new OS onto the phone, then it seems like they could open the phone up enough to allow fast, electronic (not button-push) brute force attacks.

Allowing a brute force attack to happen w/o a slow down, and allowing it electronically is different from 'cracking' the phone security itself. It just allows you to keep guessing the password until you stumble upon a good one.

And maybe the newer phones include the slow down mechanism in the 'secure enclave' itself, meaning the OS has no control over it? That would be a very tough nut to get through.

-ERD50
 
devans0 said:
Industry, press and public opinion is trending against the FBI. My guess is that those who decide in the FBI worry that a bad precedent would hamstring their future efforts. Cloning the phone and running through the stock setting of 10,000 possible numbers would have to be a lot cheaper to hack than a Supreme Court ruling.
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I think the FBI wants to avoid taking Apple to court at all costs, because if it got to the Supreme Court and they lost, it would be much worse for them than almost anything I can imagine.
If Apple refuses to budge the FBI won't take it to court. I am betting Tim Cook realizes he has the FBI by the short hairs on this one.
 
They'll be using a DFU mode jailbreak hack. This works on iPhone 5 and earlier. It will trash the secure enclave on iPhone 6 and later, rendering the phone contents unusable. Not a problem for a phone thief, but not what the FBI would want. The approach will have to be vetted by outside experts and approved by the court before any evidence obtained can be entered.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
 
Go Apple...
 
So, wonder why Apple is paranoid? Cisco isn't happy either.

Apple moves to bring iCloud infrastructure in-house predicated by backdoor fears - report

Apple's fears center around the possibility that infrastructure equipment could be intercepted by third parties between the time it leaves the manufacturer and the time it arrives at Apple's datacenters, according to The Information. The company believes that malicious actors could be adding new or modified components that would enable unauthorized access.
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While it may never be known who the targets were, information revealed by NSA leaker Edward Snowden revealed the existence of government programs designed to do exactly the thing Apple fears.

The National Security Agency's Tailored Operations Access unit was, and may still be, tasked with redirecting shipments of servers and routers headed for targeted organizations to government facilities. The packages would be opened, compromised firmware installed, and then the packages re-sealed and delivered.

One NSA manager described the program as "some of the most productive operations in TAO because they pre-position access points into hard target networks around the world."

Photos which accompanied the leaks showed intelligence agency workers modifying Cisco gear, infuriating the networking giant. Cisco later announced that it would address shipments to empty houses to avoid government tracking.
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In other news, FBI is believed to be working with Cellbrite, a subsidiary of a Japanese company located in Israel, to crack the San Bernadino iPhone. The company specializes in forensics.

What does it say that the FBI goes to an Israeli company instead of the NSA?
 
explanade said:
What does it say that the FBI goes to an Israeli company instead of the NSA?
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Different skill set?
--This isn't an encryption challenge.
-- The target isn't "information on the move" it is about "information at rest"

Anyway, if Cellbrite is involved, in practice Apple's actions have played a part in motivating USG backing and sponsorship to a foreign entity for the purpose of defeating the security features on existing Apple products. Maybe this foreign entity would have developed it anyway. And, I'm hoping the agreement between Cellbrite and the FBI precludes any disclosure to Apple of how it was done--maybe they'll know, maybe they won't, but if the USG paid for the work, Apple shouldn't get any competitive advantage from it.
 
18 March: Salah Abdeslam is arrested in Brussels. He's in custody for four days when three of his likely associates killed 31 people and injured 273 more in that same city.
If I'm Apple's PR guy, I'm hoping that Abdeslam wasn't in possession of an iPhone 5 when he was arrested, as it could do some real harm to my company's principled "we're above helping" campaign. Four days might have been enough time to round up a lot of Abdeslam's pals--if the authorities had compete access to the contents of his phone.
Anyway--there's no reporting that Abdeslam had an iPhone, so Apple may avoid a firestorm.
 
samclem said:
And, I'm hoping the agreement between Cellbrite and the FBI precludes any disclosure to Apple of how it was done--maybe they'll know, maybe they won't, but if the USG paid for the work, Apple shouldn't get any competitive advantage from it.
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As with previous cracks, Cellebrite will offer products for sale built on this technique for various applications. The technique must be reviewed by outside experts and verified to meet requirements of the court for the production of evidence.
 
For the Paris attacks which Abdeslam masterminded, they used burner phones with SMS messages in the clear, completely unencrypted.

Even if they had the master key for iPhones, the authorities weren't going to stop that attack like Jack Bauer, because the problem is resources.

They were saying the Belgian counterintelligence simply can't track all the suspects. Some of them are using 21 cheap phones. So how many people are going to monitor each of those lines for each of those suspects?

European muslims could drive almost all the way to Damascus, or at least drive to Turkey and cross over other ways. That said, there were like 6000 European muslims who went to Syria in the last few years and of those, 1500 came back.

So tracking all those is a resource problem, has nothing to do with encrypted iPhones or iPhones in general.

People who think they can monitor thousands of communications in real-time out of the millions which are going on at any minute has been watching too much movies.
 
explanade said:
For the Paris attacks which Abdeslam masterminded, they used burner phones with SMS messages in the clear, completely unencrypted.

...

So tracking all those is a resource problem, has nothing to do with encrypted iPhones or iPhones in general.

People who think they can monitor thousands of communications in real-time out of the millions which are going on at any minute has been watching too much movies.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Apple-FBI case has nothing to do with resources to monitor communications (encrypted or otherwise). The FBI wants the data on that San Bernadino iPhone (contact, sources, etc), that might be useful (and likely less so as time goes on).

-ERD50
 
ERD50 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Apple-FBI case has nothing to do with resources to monitor communications (encrypted or otherwise). The FBI wants the data on that San Bernadino iPhone (contact, sources, etc), that might be useful (and likely less so as time goes on).

-ERD50
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Right, I've got no idea why anyone is clouding the discussion with talk of monitoring (unless they are just confused). And, similarly, if when he was arrested Abdeselem had a phone with call histories to phones (burner phones or not--makes no difference) in Brussels, that info might have been used by authorities to stop the attacks that eventually occurred. Especially if the police do the smart thing and don't publicize his arrest immediately.
 
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samclem said:
Especially if the police do the smart thing and don't publicize his arrest immediately.
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I've had experience with the Brussels cops (all good :D ) and I have extremely high regard for their professionalism.
 
Someone else brought up the Brussels attacks, as if unlocking an iPhone would have prevented them.
 
samclem said:
18 March: Salah Abdeslam is arrested in Brussels. He's in custody for four days when three of his likely associates killed 31 people and injured 273 more in that same city.
If I'm Apple's PR guy, I'm hoping that Abdeslam wasn't in possession of an iPhone 5 when he was arrested, as it could do some real harm to my company's principled "we're above helping" campaign. Four days might have been enough time to round up a lot of Abdeslam's pals--if the authorities had compete access to the contents of his phone.
Anyway--there's no reporting that Abdeslam had an iPhone, so Apple may avoid a firestorm.
Click to expand...


According to some reports I saw on TV, they did not have to look at his phone as he was talking...

And they said they moved up the bombing because he was talking.... so it seems that a phone is not involved in this at all...
 
explanade said:
Someone else brought up the Brussels attacks, as if unlocking an iPhone would have prevented them.
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Yes, under some circumstances unlocking an iPhone could provide information that would allow the foiling of the subsequent attacks that occurred in Brussels. I do not know if these circumstances apply in this case.
 
I wonder what they're paying the 14-year old kid who will show them how to use the software.
 
It is true that there is not enough man power to listen to all the conversations of the suspects that they may have justified causes for surveillance.

The information collected on a phone can help the investigation even if it is obtained after the fact. The history of phone calls, the numbers called etc..., can help determine the connection between the culprits, the different cells, their modus operandi, their movements, etc...

Recall the metadata that the NSA got into trouble for collecting? Metadata is not phone conversation. It is just what number calls which number, at what time, etc... And nobody can look at all those records even in real time. It is only after something happens that they are going to go back and look at the records trying to sort things out. I don't think they are allowed to do that anymore.
 
They can get all the call data and SMS data from the phone company.

This is about FBI testing to see if they can force Apple to do their bidding, so that they can keep forcing them whenever.
 
I heard that Apple is insisting on the FBI divulging their source for the hacking software (so they can close its loophole).
 
kcowan said:
I heard that Apple is insisting on the FBI divulging their source for the hacking software (so they can close its loophole).
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That's funny. Apple wants to be seen to be doing something (even if they already know the vulnerability, it makes sense to claim they don't). Some company is going to make a lot of money by playing this public perception game with Apple.
 
Was listening to a New Yorker podcast about the Brussels attacks.

Counterintelligence was surveilling communications but there was so much chatter, it was impossible for them to sort through which ones were worth following through.

They said some 38000 foreign fighters joined ISIS, 7500 of those from Europe.

Meanwhile, Belgium Interior minister has offered his resignation in the wake of revelations that Turkey had warned Belgium about the suspects awhile back and they didn't take actions.

But they've made more arrests and French police have arrested more suspects near Paris.

All without cracking one iPhone!
 
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