Bathroom Renovation - Unexpected Events

[OldShooter]

... Regarding the second boldface - unfortunately, my wife and I were unaware of lien wavers prior to signing the contract and as a result did not have it included as a requirement in the contract. Please tell me how we can "get him to sign" a mechanical lien release that wasn't required in the contract - I'd love to know. If we withhold payment, he'll most definitely put a lien on my home, or cause some sort of legal trouble.

In may limited experience, a requirement for lien waivers has been implicit, not explicit. I'm sure this varies from state to state, though. I'd suggest you contact the consumer affairs tentacle of your state attorney general's office. They may have a publication to send you or may just be able to discuss the question with you. You could also buy an hour of a real estate attorney's time to make sure you are on firm ground.

In a nutshell, in our state anyway, if the GC does not pay a sub that sub gets an automatic lien against your house and it is only released when somebody pays. Running out of cash, robbing Peter to pay Paul, is the most common way to go out of business. If you have any sense that your GC might be having cash flow problems. the lien waivers are worth paying attention to. One workaround is for you to pay the major subs and the lumber yard, deducting from his final check. Then you know things are kosher.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

Ouch. Sorry to hear this. I am the first to take the path of least resistance, so I understand the impulse, but when I had issues with my GC on a full house reno I had to go head-to-head with him once or twice, and fight down the excuses and insist on a fix. After a blunder on his part that cost him a full day of rework and lost materials, he made zero steps or decisions without me there for approval. Which was perfect, I basically stepped in as the PM, even though I was still working full time.

At this point I wonder why you'd even have considered him for a 2nd job, but at least now you won't. But do shop around a lot for his replacement for future work.

The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

 

[CO-guy]

Not making excuses, but from the GC's perspective, he's paying the crew of workers who showed up at your door for the day whether they demo your room or twiddle their thumbs. For a small project, that might be the difference between making money and losing money.

When the GC shows back up, I think it would go a long way to acknowledge that fact and apologize for wasting his money. It costs nothing to say, and might diffuse the situation whether you fully agree with the sentiment or not.

 

[rodi]

Regarding the second boldface - unfortunately, my wife and I were unaware of lien wavers prior to signing the contract and as a result did not have it included as a requirement in the contract. Please tell me how we can "get him to sign" a mechanical lien release that wasn't required in the contract - I'd love to know. If we withhold payment, he'll most definitely put a lien on my home, or cause some sort of legal trouble.

If the GC used sub contractors then chances are they can file a mechanics lien *if* they were not paid by the GC. But, depending on state law, there are limitations. Here in CA the sub contractor has 20 days from the start of work to file a preliminary notice. (letting you know who the sub is and that they have the right to slap a lien.) Then there is a 90 day time limit from completion of work to when they can file a mechanics lien (record against your property - has to be cleared to finance, sell, etc.)

We learned this the hard way when our GC walked off the job mid-way, leaving unpaid subs. One we had to pay because the paperwork was in order, another didn't try to hit us with a lien till more than 90 days after the GC had walked, and had never served us with the proper preliminary notice at the time. We requested the lien be removed, explained why, and they did.

But - the timelines and paperwork varies from state to state.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

Not making excuses, but from the GC's perspective, he's paying the crew of workers who showed up at your door for the day whether they demo your room or twiddle their thumbs. For a small project, that might be the difference between making money and losing money.

When the GC shows back up, I think it would go a long way to acknowledge that fact and apologize for wasting his money. It costs nothing to say, and might diffuse the situation whether you fully agree with the sentiment or not.

Let me make one thing clear. It was HE who wasted MY time, and any financial loss he incurred is his own fault. I will apologize for nothing. My wife and I had been asking for a contract for weeks. Who does this sort of thing without first having a signed contract? I certainly wouldn't. For all I know, without a signed contract, he could demolish the place and then leave for weeks on end threatening to not return until unreasonable amounts of money is paid, and the balance of power would be further in his favor at least until we scramble to find another contractor, which as you may know, is not that easy a task in this market. We'd be at his mercy. It would be foolish not to have a signed contract first.

 

[427Vette]

Being a contractor my whole career makes this almost painful to read.

Word of advice… Do the exact opposite of Skipro’s advice. Treating him like an employee will get you nowhere…

 

[ivinsfan]

Being a contractor my whole career makes this almost painful to read.

Word of advice… Do the exact opposite of Skipro’s advice. Treating him like an employee will get you nowhere…

I think we would get along fine...

 

[misanman]

Who does this sort of thing without first having a signed contract?

Not sure we've ever had a "signed contract". Guess we've been living dangerously but all the projects have turned out okay so far.

 

[427Vette]

Not sure we've ever had a "signed contract". Guess we've been living dangerously but all the projects have turned out okay so far.

I was in business for almost 25 years and did millions and millions of dollars worth of work and never once had a signed contract with a client. None of my contractor friends ever had contracts signed. I wonder if it’s not regional thing? It sure seems like people on this forum think it’s the norm. It’s certainly not in my neck of the woods.

In fact if a customer brought up a contract or asked if I was licensed, bonded and insured I would usually avoid the project. Of course I was but it seemed like they were looking to sue me for something. There were always plenty of low maintenance customers to work with instead.

 

[Badger]

Once the job is complete make sure the bill includes "Paid in Full". I would also pay with a check with the same "Paid in Full".
I would make sure when he returns to finish the job there is someone with you as a witness and also because I wouldn't trust anyone with an attitude these days.

Cheers!

 

[Aerides]

It’s certainly not in my neck of the woods.

In fact if a customer brought up a contract or asked if I was licensed, bonded and insured I would usually avoid the project. Of course I was but it seemed like they were looking to sue me for something. There were always plenty of low maintenance customers to work with instead.

Perhaps it's regional? In S. Fla, there is so much "fly by night" business, so many stories of folks starting work, and the crew disappears after demo, that I'd be nuts to proceed without all of the above.

 

[ivinsfan]

I was in business for almost 25 years and did millions and millions of dollars worth of work and never once had a signed contract with a client. None of my contractor friends ever had contracts signed. I wonder if it’s not regional thing? It sure seems like people on this forum think it’s the norm. It’s certainly not in my neck of the woods.

In fact if a customer brought up a contract or asked if I was licensed, bonded and insured I would usually avoid the project. Of course I was but it seemed like they were looking to sue me for something. There were always plenty of low maintenance customers to work with instead.

Regional yes in your case it's probably the rocks and cows part... OTOH what if a contractor said on a big home improvement job, I need to see your bank and investment accounts or a note from your banker proving you have the means to pay me, does this ever happen?

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

Regional yes in your case it's probably the rocks and cows part... OTOH what if a contractor said on a big home improvement job, I need to see your bank and investment accounts or a note from your banker proving you have the means to pay me, does this ever happen?

Hence the need for a contract. The fear of legal action is on both sides of the transaction. A contract protects both parties.

 

[ivinsfan]

Hence the need for a contract. The fear of legal action is on both sides of the transaction. A contract protects both parties.

Did you have to provide proof of funds to the contractor, was my question.


A neighbor is tiling contractor and a good one. Lots of expensive machinery. He happened to mention that he did a LARGE pattern tilting project for some farmer and when it was virtually done the farmer mentioned he didn't actually have the money to pay him but he was "working" on it. The tiling plant charges out the tile itself to the contractor so my friend was caught flat footed and actually out of pocket. I don't know what actually ended up happening but I do know it was a 6 figure bill.

 

[skipro33]

Regarding the first boldfaced line above - I do that and he gets all passive-aggressive, defensive, and he could potentially screw up some part of the work such that it remains undiscovered until he's long-gone. I'm not sure where you're from, but in my part of the world, being too much of a hardass doesn't usually end up good for anyone. You know the expression, "It's easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar". I've seen the jobs the contractor gets. The money he's getting from me is insignificant in comparison. He doesn't need me. If a contractor has been in the business long enough, he knows all the tricks to tilt the balance of power in his favor.

Regarding the second boldface - unfortunately, my wife and I were unaware of lien wavers prior to signing the contract and as a result did not have it included as a requirement in the contract. Please tell me how we can "get him to sign" a mechanical lien release that wasn't required in the contract - I'd love to know. If we withhold payment, he'll most definitely put a lien on my home, or cause some sort of legal trouble.

I'm sorry to hear that about your contractor. You think your contractor would get vindictive and sabotage the job if you confronted him on his job performance? Wow. I enjoy working with a contractor, but I won't put up with unprofessional behavior like that for even a minute. Give an inch, they'll take a mile, as the saying goes. Normally, there needs to be discussion about how a project can proceed; what the owner wants and what the contractor, through his experience, recommends to keep the client both happy with the end product and the cost. They whiny, complainy passive/aggressive, defensive contractor you ended up with is simply not acting professionally, and when it happens to me, I simply won't put up with it. I understand contractors think they have the upper hand right now, but not for long. When the next recession hits, and it will soon, these same contractors will be soliciting for work of any kind to keep their business from going under. The good ones, who run their operation as a business and not take advantage of the current times with their clients will survive. If simply stating that I'm the one writing the checks, so we'll do it my way is hardass, then I guess I am and that's something the contractor will have to make adjustments for, not the other way around. Would you buy a car that way? Allow the salesman to talk you out of the car you desire into something you didn't really want in the first place, then pay him for the privilege? Or a meal in a restaurant with a waiter? How is that different than a remodel or new construction? Suggestions, recommendations, etc are all fine, but the customer makes the final decision, not the contractor.

As to the lien release, that probably wasn't the exact term to use. It should be a notice of completion and include that all subcontractors and material providers have been paid. A notice of completion is also used to determine when taxes can start to be levied towards the improvement and may be required where you live. There is a deadline from the date of notice for anyone to file a lien for nonpayment, also depending on where you live. You can google a search for certificate of final completion template.

 

[CO-guy]

Let me make one thing clear. It was HE who wasted MY time, and any financial loss he incurred is his own fault. I will apologize for nothing. My wife and I had been asking for a contract for weeks. Who does this sort of thing without first having a signed contract? I certainly wouldn't. For all I know, without a signed contract, he could demolish the place and then leave for weeks on end threatening to not return until unreasonable amounts of money is paid, and the balance of power would be further in his favor at least until we scramble to find another contractor, which as you may know, is not that easy a task in this market. We'd be at his mercy. It would be foolish not to have a signed contract first.

Yes, you've made your perspective quite clear, and I don't disagree. However, it's you who has a half-finished project and is here soliciting opinions. I simply offered a different perspective to consider, and one I can imagine the contractor having.

It sounded like you wanted the path of least resistance to get the project to completion, and I, personally, have definitely "acknowledged" a contractors perspective to 'reconcile' an irreconcilable disagreement and bring a project to a close. As a project consultant, I find it can be an effective tool to get the job done when things are heading south, but YMMV.

 

[OldShooter]

Did you have to provide proof of funds to the contractor, was my question. ...

I'll comment on that thought: First, this is not a symmetric situation. The customer owns real property that would be at risk if he does not pay his bills. Further, the customer lives in the property and hence the contractor knows where to find him. The customer knows nothing about the financial resources of the contractor -- hence the concern about lien waivers.

The other thing is that asking a client such a question would not contribute to a harmonious relationship. What I have done instead is to have an attorney (who has access to the databases) do a credit check and a liens and judgements search on the potential client. The client never has to know about this and it is a pretty good snake detector.

 

[skipro33]

Well Skip I'm guessing in today's world using language like that with an independent businessman with more work then they can handle will get you put on the "never mind I don't need your business" list.

And that's fine. I'd rather not proceed with that sort of 'businessman' and open a can of worms than to proceed and end up with the contractor's idea of what I am paying for.

We've had countless dealings with independent businessmen for wide variety of jobs and never once did we think we were the "boss". We pay the bill but it's a mutual endeavor with respect on both sides.

Me too. But that's not what OP is up against; respect on both sides. He's got a contractor that is behaving very unprofessionally and his obligation is to bring the contractor back into the relm of professional responsibility or fire him. Whether you think your were the boss or not, if you can fire him, you are the boss.

I've also heard that same guy refuse to take a call from a certain farmer saying I'm not talking to him today I don't need that abuse.

Good for him. No one needs to take abuse. And that is what I'm telling the OP here; don't take this abuse from your contractor. Standing up to that contractor's bully intimidation attitude is not abuse.

 

[CO-guy]

Being a contractor my whole career makes this almost painful to read.

Word of advice… Do the exact opposite of Skipro’s advice. Treating him like an employee will get you nowhere…

Agreed. Maybe that approach worked 50 years ago, but these days people will just leave.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

Yes, you've made your perspective quite clear, and I don't disagree. However, it's you who has a half-finished project and is here soliciting opinions. I simply offered a different perspective to consider, and one I can imagine the contractor having.

It sounded like you wanted the path of least resistance to get the project to completion, and I, personally, have definitely "acknowledged" a contractors perspective to 'reconcile' an irreconcilable disagreement and bring a project to a close. As a project consultant, I find it can be an effective tool to get the job done when things are heading south, but YMMV.

I understand and appreciate your input. And I'm sorry if my tone was inappropriate. The thought of having to apologize for simply wanting a signed contract grates on my nerves.

 

[OldShooter]

I've signed a lot of contracts in my day and have never been to court. Even where there is a dispute, it may not be cost-effective for either side to litigate.

The reason I like contracts is that they make explicit what were often unstated assumptions. What is included, what is not included, schedule dates, etc. Often during the development of a statement of work, mismatching assumptions are discovered. ("Oh, you wanted a toilet in that bathroom?")

Good fences make good neighbors.

 

[skipro33]

Being a contractor my whole career makes this almost painful to read.

Word of advice… Do the exact opposite of Skipro’s advice. Treating him like an employee will get you nowhere…

...if a customer brought up a contract or asked if I was licensed, bonded and insured I would usually avoid the project. Of course I was but it seemed like they were looking to sue me for something. There were always plenty of low maintenance customers to work with instead.

Wow! I've never run across a contractor with this perspective.

 

[jollystomper]

Note: during the reno of the full bath, I had expressed, diplomatically, some dissatisfaction with some of the work, and he always had an excuse ready, to which I responded - being the passive type - by just nodding and letting the matter go.

This is the only part that puzzles me. I agree that nothing should proceed without a signed contract, and that he was wrong in sending folks over for demo work before the contract was signed. I have also watched enough of "The People's Court" and "Judge Judy" to know too not to rush to quickly to judgement when hearing one side of the issue. I guess, being more of a "root cause" type of person, I wonder if there seemed to be "warning signals" based on, in your words, him "having an excuse" for your dissatisfaction (and perhaps why he stated later that you cause trouble) , why there was even discussion of doing further work, *especially* before the current project was done.

The lesson here is that it is best to avoid "overlapping" projects, particularly if one feels uneasy with the prior project that is not yet completed.

 

[ivinsfan]

Wow! I've never run across a contractor with this perspective.

Are you sure you haven't, how would you know if they told they were busy or didn't have time? Our dairy milking system supplier (national brand, local company, great honest man) didn't even bid on a huge project a couple miles south of us. He said, I didn't even bid it out because I need to keep my employees happy and I would never ask them to work with those people.



I guess after reading here I feel lucky we have very few choices for a lot of the business things we need done and so far 49 years in we haven't had any kind of contractor/business problems. I don't ever recall signing a paper contract either. In fact we have become personal friends with a few of these people.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

Are you sure you haven't, how would you know if they told they were busy or didn't have time? Our dairy milking system supplier (national brand, local company, great honest man) didn't even bid on a huge project a couple miles south of us. He said, I didn't even bid it out because I need to keep my employees happy and I would never ask them to work with those people.



I guess after reading here I feel lucky we have very few choices for a lot of the business things we need done and so far 49 years in we haven't had any kind of contractor/business problems. I don't ever recall signing a paper contract either. In fact we have become personal friends with a few of these people.

Mayberry, USA. Not knocking it, it sounds rather nice. But not representative of the entire nation.