cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
My fiancees old house is a former rental that was owned by her ex father in law and sold to her 13 years ago. The ex-fil was a major mickey mouser when it came to working on the house, nothing is done to code, and nothing was done with a permit.
The house is currently getting a full exterior remodeling: roof, siding, windows, and a new bathroom. She bought it from for 60k; somewhat updated similar homes in the area are selling for $150-175.
I hired a couple of guys starting up their own contracting outfit, both with plenty of experience.
They gave me a quote for roughly $20k, which I felt was a little light but I figured some overage and renegotiation would occur as we opened up walls and discovered just how big the mouse ears the ex-fil was wearing when he did the work. So we open up the walls, find a bunch of dry rot, and that due to some excessive slab pouring one corner of the house is below grade and the footers and studs are shot. This is the bathroom we were going to remodel anyway, but instead of a tub/toilet/vanity we're up to gut and replace.
Of the two guys I hired, one hurt his foot and couldnt work anymore, the other guy evaporated while he looked for more help. Showed up three days later with a kid who stayed on the job for 2 days. Two days later, both the original guys show up with another new carpenter who actually lives four houses up from this property (I dont know him). The next two days this new guy is working by himself, seems to be doing a good job, but he's been given keys to my house and unsupervised access and nobody told me anything about this.
Next the original two guys show up again, and give me a quote that effectively doubles the original quote. I do the math and it looks about 5-7k high.
In the meanwhile, I'm talking to their new carpenter guy. He tells me he's going to finish the job by himself, it'll take him about 3 weeks, and the contractor is paying him a bonus to finish that quickly. Says the original two guys are working another job about a half hour away - the same two guys who told me they'd be working this project as their sole and primary project, personally (yeah I know, lies, damned lies, and stuff contractors say).
So I go ballistic on the new pricing, and asked them to reprice it. I'll buy all the materials myself and will pay them weekly for labor expended, figuring thats good for me because they cant bury extra costs and its good for them as it improves cash flow. I get a new quote from them saying it'll take six weeks to do, or three weeks for two guys and a laborer. Still the same labor cost, just broken out differently.
So I think I'm getting 3 card monte here. Further, they called me yesterday and said the work on the windows was complete, which triggers another payment. Kept pushing me to get them a check. I went to the house to inspect and the windows are far from done. Add lying to the list of issues.
So heres the decision point. I'm sorely tempted to fire these guys and go look for someone else, but that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. Contractors arent easy to find, and this house with the code and permit problems is a touchy one at best. Its probable that most other contractors would insist on a full inspection and permit pulls (which the original contractor said was not needed, but it appears he was wrong in that regard and I told him so from the beginning). If it goes that way, I might end up having to double again the price of the work.
The contractor called last night and left me a message that it might be better for me to negotiate directly with the carpenter and leave them and their overhead out of the deal. Since I noticed the original two guys took all their tools with them the last time they were at the house, I suspect they were planning on bailing on me anyhow.
This guy probably has a license in order, I doubt he has any workmens comp or liability and he lives in a little piece of crap house.
So do you bite the bullet, pay the extortion and have it done, break it off with the contractor, hire the carpenter, raise the homeowners liability insurance, hope for the best and save about $15k, or dump the thing entirely, look for a new contractor, get everything above boards and probably add an additional 10-15k to the already doubled quote?
So far, this has been a perfect stereotype case of dealing with contractors: they disappear, send cheap workers, open up your house and then double the cost, disappear again, communicate poorly, pull out and leave me holding the bag.
Anyone also want to opine on the legal implications? I paid the down payment and for the materials. They've probably done about $4k more labor than I've paid. Finishing the windows is supposed to trigger another payment but I suppose interpretation of what constitutes "finished" is debatable. If it all goes to hell in a handbasket, what happens if I withhold payment? If they come back and say I owe them 6, 8 or 10 k for work done to date, I know we have arbitration, but I'm leery of liens and other sundry excitements. Since they failed to secure permits (as stated in the contract although ultimately from the counties perspective its my responsibility to make sure they did it), didnt complete the first phase, and want to bail, am I required to pay them at all?
The house is currently getting a full exterior remodeling: roof, siding, windows, and a new bathroom. She bought it from for 60k; somewhat updated similar homes in the area are selling for $150-175.
I hired a couple of guys starting up their own contracting outfit, both with plenty of experience.
They gave me a quote for roughly $20k, which I felt was a little light but I figured some overage and renegotiation would occur as we opened up walls and discovered just how big the mouse ears the ex-fil was wearing when he did the work. So we open up the walls, find a bunch of dry rot, and that due to some excessive slab pouring one corner of the house is below grade and the footers and studs are shot. This is the bathroom we were going to remodel anyway, but instead of a tub/toilet/vanity we're up to gut and replace.
Of the two guys I hired, one hurt his foot and couldnt work anymore, the other guy evaporated while he looked for more help. Showed up three days later with a kid who stayed on the job for 2 days. Two days later, both the original guys show up with another new carpenter who actually lives four houses up from this property (I dont know him). The next two days this new guy is working by himself, seems to be doing a good job, but he's been given keys to my house and unsupervised access and nobody told me anything about this.
Next the original two guys show up again, and give me a quote that effectively doubles the original quote. I do the math and it looks about 5-7k high.
In the meanwhile, I'm talking to their new carpenter guy. He tells me he's going to finish the job by himself, it'll take him about 3 weeks, and the contractor is paying him a bonus to finish that quickly. Says the original two guys are working another job about a half hour away - the same two guys who told me they'd be working this project as their sole and primary project, personally (yeah I know, lies, damned lies, and stuff contractors say).
So I go ballistic on the new pricing, and asked them to reprice it. I'll buy all the materials myself and will pay them weekly for labor expended, figuring thats good for me because they cant bury extra costs and its good for them as it improves cash flow. I get a new quote from them saying it'll take six weeks to do, or three weeks for two guys and a laborer. Still the same labor cost, just broken out differently.
So I think I'm getting 3 card monte here. Further, they called me yesterday and said the work on the windows was complete, which triggers another payment. Kept pushing me to get them a check. I went to the house to inspect and the windows are far from done. Add lying to the list of issues.
So heres the decision point. I'm sorely tempted to fire these guys and go look for someone else, but that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. Contractors arent easy to find, and this house with the code and permit problems is a touchy one at best. Its probable that most other contractors would insist on a full inspection and permit pulls (which the original contractor said was not needed, but it appears he was wrong in that regard and I told him so from the beginning). If it goes that way, I might end up having to double again the price of the work.
The contractor called last night and left me a message that it might be better for me to negotiate directly with the carpenter and leave them and their overhead out of the deal. Since I noticed the original two guys took all their tools with them the last time they were at the house, I suspect they were planning on bailing on me anyhow.
This guy probably has a license in order, I doubt he has any workmens comp or liability and he lives in a little piece of crap house.
So do you bite the bullet, pay the extortion and have it done, break it off with the contractor, hire the carpenter, raise the homeowners liability insurance, hope for the best and save about $15k, or dump the thing entirely, look for a new contractor, get everything above boards and probably add an additional 10-15k to the already doubled quote?
So far, this has been a perfect stereotype case of dealing with contractors: they disappear, send cheap workers, open up your house and then double the cost, disappear again, communicate poorly, pull out and leave me holding the bag.
Anyone also want to opine on the legal implications? I paid the down payment and for the materials. They've probably done about $4k more labor than I've paid. Finishing the windows is supposed to trigger another payment but I suppose interpretation of what constitutes "finished" is debatable. If it all goes to hell in a handbasket, what happens if I withhold payment? If they come back and say I owe them 6, 8 or 10 k for work done to date, I know we have arbitration, but I'm leery of liens and other sundry excitements. Since they failed to secure permits (as stated in the contract although ultimately from the counties perspective its my responsibility to make sure they did it), didnt complete the first phase, and want to bail, am I required to pay them at all?