Coronavirus - Health and preparedness aspects - II

[tulak]

It is very easy for a totalitarian police state to cover up deaths. The pollution indicators did not drop around Wuhan even during the depths of the quarantine. Crematoriums pump out a lot.

It’s not that easy for them to prevent news from leaking. I think if they were doing this on a mass scale, we would know about it.

 

[brewer12345]

It’s not that easy for them to prevent news from leaking. I think if they were doing this on a mass scale, we would know about it.

So you missed all those leaked tweets showing vans full of bodies and cause of death listed as pneumonia or simply left blank? I did not.

 

[Rianne]

breaking habits

Paper face masks do not prevent breathing in virus particles, BUT they prevent you from touching your nose and mouth. Just as many of us have to break habits (nail biting, wiping nose with fingers etc) I'm focusing on training myself not to touch my face. I saw an informative piece of news, viruses do not have wings. They can be in the air, but if you move quickly away from a cough or sneeze from another person and STOP touching your face your chances of catching (any) virus lessons a lot.

Viruses, per science article, do not replicate on their own. They have to attach to a living organism. My biggest fear is the mutation to something much worse. IMHO, if we as individuals work to protect ourselves, we protect others as well.

This article is from 2014, but Dr. Fauci points to how humans help viruses adapt and mutate.


https://www.vox.com/2014/6/27/5846900/how-viruses-stay-one-step-ahead-of-our-efforts-to-kill-them


"Other fast mutators include coronaviruses like MERS and SARS. Influenza viruses are fairly fast mutators, although that varies from strain to strain. That's one reason why flu vaccines are often only effective for a short while."
What good is a vaccine for this virus if it mutates quickly and the vaccine is outdated?

 

[ivinsfan]

Paper face masks do not prevent breathing in virus particles, BUT they prevent you from touching your nose and mouth. Just as many of us have to break habits (nail biting, wiping nose with fingers etc) I'm focusing on training myself not to touch my face. I saw an informative piece of news, viruses do not have wings. They can be in the air, but if you move quickly away from a cough or sneeze from another person and STOP touching your face your chances of catching (any) virus lessons a lot.

Viruses, per science article, do not replicate on their own. They have to attach to a living organism. My biggest fear is the mutation to something much worse. IMHO, if we as individuals work to protect ourselves, we protect others as well.

This article is from 2014, but Dr. Fauci points to how humans help viruses adapt and mutate.


https://www.vox.com/2014/6/27/5846900/how-viruses-stay-one-step-ahead-of-our-efforts-to-kill-them


"Other fast mutators include coronaviruses like MERS and SARS. Influenza viruses are fairly fast mutators, although that varies from strain to strain. That's one reason why flu vaccines are often only effective for a short while."
What good is a vaccine for this virus if it mutates quickly and the vaccine is outdated?

The experts disagree and say if you are not used to wearing a mask, you are way more likely to be touching it and adjusting it and increasing your possible exposure to virus.

 

[Fermion]

Paper face masks do not prevent breathing in virus particles

I am not 100% certain this is true.

Say you are walking outside on a sunny day in March (ok, not in Seattle then). You are wearing a N95 mask. Someone sneezes and the droplets spray across your mask and glasses.

Will the sunlight kill the virus droplets before they manage to penetrate the mask? Maybe? I know that if you did not have the mask on and someone sneezed, you would directly breath in the droplets without any chance of a barrier allowing the UV to kill them.

 

[ziggy29]

China can do things that freer societies can not. So on one hand I don't trust their numbers. On the other hand, if any country can crack down with draconian mandates to slow the transmission, it's China.

That said, none of us have any idea what is really happening.

 

[Fermion]

The experts disagree and say if you are not used to wearing a mask, you are way more likely to be touching it and adjusting it and increasing your possible exposure to virus.

So you have a mask and some hand sanitizer, and you avoid handshakes and touching doorknobs and things.

Are you saying that the mask becomes coated in virus and if you touch it you will likely spread the virus?

Do you realize that if the mask is coated in virus that the virus would already be inside you without the layer of mask protection anyway?

 

[ivinsfan]

So you have a mask and some hand sanitizer, and you avoid handshakes and touching doorknobs and things.

Are you saying that the mask becomes coated in virus and if you touch it you will likely spread the virus?

Do you realize that if the mask is coated in virus that the virus would already be inside you without the layer of mask protection anyway?

No they are saying that the hand to face contact is more then usual.

 

[Fermion]

No they are saying that the hand to face contact is more then usual.

So essentially experts are saying the problem is largely with our hands. If you carried a bunch of those nitrile gloves (200 packs at Costco) and just kept constantly disposing of them, you could largely eliminate the virus risk?

 

[MRG]

When are you going to curtail your activities? I’m asking as I’m having a hard time thinking it’d be premature where we live in the middle of the country to do so now...I was going to wait until a few more Seattles happened.

Yet this article https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/06/health/coronavirus-older-people-social-distancing/index.html points to experts saying those over 60 and people with underlying conditions should start social distancing now.

And sure enough, the CDC website says to stay at home as much as possible now for those groups: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...gh-risk-complications.html#who-is-higher-risk

Trying to wrap my head around doing that now, but I guess most of what we do out is elective...restaurants 5 or so times a week, gym 3x a week, and my wife’s fun job at a candy store.

So what metric will you use to determine when you stay home most of the time?

We have been staying in more. Haven't been to the gym since last year and not going anytime soon. We are staying away from tourist areas and hanging out in the national forest. We've cut eating out down to 1x weekly and don't go to the areas tourists frequent. While neither of us has any health issues we do live without 20% of the oxygen many people have so I don't want to get a respiratory disease.

 

[Aerides]

If your hands are gloved, and somehow that makes you stop touching your face, then in theory, sure you'd reduce some risk.

But if you still touch your face with the same frequency, then, gloved or not, you'd have the same results.

Most of us are unaware how often we really touch our faces.

 

[REWahoo]

Masks are useless. Here's the perfect device to keep you from touching your face:

 

[ivinsfan]

So essentially experts are saying the problem is largely with our hands. If you carried a bunch of those nitrile gloves (200 packs at Costco) and just kept constantly disposing of them, you could largely eliminate the virus risk?

LOL yes I thought of the gloves too I just bought a couple boxes at Sam's because they had them on special...can't answer about the virus risk since I'm not an expert.

 

[atmsmshr]

Mixed messaging from a health care professional

My car needed a wash and wax. It’s my birthday, so its free. While counting for the first time the number of people getting in and out of my car to move it in the process (four) a fit looking woman my age sitting next to me strikes up a conversation.

Asked what she thought of the coronavirus news coverage. She said I don’t read that stuff. And everyone just needs to take normal precautions.

I said that my concern was that at the peak of community infection medical staff would be overwhelmed and we would see inadequate fever wards pop up in some locations.

She said medical staff are taking all the necessary precautions they need. Said that her husband is a physician, and that she is a retired orthodontist. Just the normal precautions you take every day with suffice.

Like what normal precautions, I asked? Here’s what she says she does.

Washes her hands all the time, don’t touch eyes, nose and mouth. She held up her car keys, cell phone and wallet which were in a clear Ziploc bag. Said that she just got back from the gym, but there’s no way she would put anything on an unprotected surface at a gym. She said she and her husband clean their cell phones every time they walk in the door to the house.

Mentioned that DW and I enjoyed touring the northern Medeterrain with a 2 week Princess cruise and 2 weeks in Italy last fall but regretfully postponed a cruise to the Baltic and 2 weeks in the UK. Cancelled a trip to Hawaii in April for airline travel concerns. We also elected to travel to AZ and PA in February to visit family before any widespread USA outbreak.

This retired health care workers said that there’s no way she would go on a cruise now, and thinking of not doing any plane travel in the near future. And she always wears a face mask on flying on a plane. But she’s quick to tell other people that she’s not sick she’s just taking precautions. I ask her what kind of face mask and was an N95 more efficient? She said no, just a regular surgical mask.

She said the virus would probably affect most people but they would just have flu like symptoms and they would have to stay home for a few weeks. Then she goes on to say that last fall she caught the flu and it was just awful. She had to have a rescue inhaler, and a nebulizer, and it took months to recover. And look at China, the 80,000 cases are stabilizing. (Me thinking – right, a one party totalitarian state has never lied before).

We parted, and I there seemed to be a disconnect in messaging. Saying ‘don’t worry – I’m a health care professional,’ but taking every precaution just short of wearing a full body condom.

 

[Fermion]

If your hands are gloved, and somehow that makes you stop touching your face, then in theory, sure you'd reduce some risk.

But if you still touch your face with the same frequency, then, gloved or not, you'd have the same results.

Most of us are unaware how often we really touch our faces.

See, I am not following your logic.

Say I need to go to the store for a few essentials. I wash my hands for 1 minute before leaving the house. I put on a N95 mask. I put on a pair of nitrile gloves. I drive to the store, get out of the car (it is sunny so the car door handles are probably OK). I walk into the automatic door opening thing without touching anything.

I scratch my nose. Should be ok, the gloves have not touched anything contaminated. I proceed to the milk isle, open the glass door (CONTAMINATION WARNING!) and get a gallon of milk. I carefully take off the gloves and toss them, putting on a new pair (this is tricky as I have to hold the milk between my knees because I didn't want to touch a shopping cart or basket). I decide this is ridiculous and just use the instant checkout thing for the milk. I carry the milk to the car, set it on the roof and dispose of the 2nd pair of gloves, putting on a 3rd pair. I scratch my nose again (damn itchy nose), grab the milk, and get in the car. I drive home, talk off the mask (stick it out in the sun? or throw it away?) and dispose of the gloves before opening the front door.

See? Simple.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

I washed and cut up some cucumbers just a little while ago, and now I'm thinking about grocery shopping. Someone (I think IRL, not here) said they were going to use the pickup service to avoid going out in public, but to me that isn't much help, because you still have the products that a bunch of other people touched. At best, the grocery stockers and the Instacart/Peapod/store picker, but probably at least a few customers, too.

Now I'm thinking I should pay extra and get the shrink-wrapped cucumbers, even though they're twice as much. But then, I'd still be handling the wrappers.

What do you all think in general about how we can better handle grocery shopping, which is hard to avoid, and in particular produce purchasing?

We're not quite ready to break into our dehydrated food buckets yet!

 

[ivinsfan]

See, I am not following your logic.

Say I need to go to the store for a few essentials. I wash my hands for 1 minute before leaving the house. I put on a N95 mask. I put on a pair of nitrile gloves. I drive to the store, get out of the car (it is sunny so the car door handles are probably OK). I walk into the automatic door opening thing without touching anything.

I scratch my nose. Should be ok, the gloves have not touched anything contaminated. I proceed to the milk isle, open the glass door (CONTAMINATION WARNING!) and get a gallon of milk. I carefully take off the gloves and toss them, putting on a new pair (this is tricky as I have to hold the milk between my knees because I didn't want to touch a shopping cart or basket). I decide this is ridiculous and just use the instant checkout thing for the milk. I carry the milk to the car, set it on the roof and dispose of the 2nd pair of gloves, putting on a 3rd pair. I scratch my nose again (damn itchy nose), grab the milk, and get in the car. I drive home, talk off the mask (stick it out in the sun? or throw it away?) and dispose of the gloves before opening the front door.

See? Simple.

Hold on why do you need to keep changing gloves, do not touch your face while wearing the gloves and it's all good.

 

[Fermion]

I bet we could come up with some engineered shock collar device which detects if someone is about to touch their face and gives them a small shock. Maybe you would need to wear a RFID ring on each hand or something? Or better, the collar has a tiny camera with image recognition that can identify hands?

 

[Teacher Terry]

We went to our favorite happy hour place yesterday and they said they have been dead all week. We are going to a big dinner tonight with 200 people for 5 hours. I thought about staying home but DH will go anyway so it doesn’t matter. Probably last big event I will attend.

 

[REWahoo]

Someone (I think IRL, not here) said they were going to use the pickup service to avoid going out in public, but to me that isn't much help, because you still have the products that a bunch of other people touched. At best, the grocery stockers and the Instacart/Peapod/store picker, but probably at least a few customers, too.

And if you go into the store you eliminate what from the shopping process, the order picker and whoever places your order in your car? Then you add the risk of direct exposure from whatever check out process you use (self or live clerk) plus coming in contact with the other shoppers in the store, something I really want to avoid.

 

[Fermion]

We went to our favorite happy hour place yesterday and they said they have been dead all week. We are going to a big dinner tonight with 200 people for 5 hours. I thought about staying home but DH will go anyway so it doesn’t matter. Probably last big event I will attend.

I have this problem too. I want to stay and home but DW just goes to stuff so it makes no real difference what I do to protect myself.

 

[Ronstar]

I have this problem too. I want to stay and home but DW just goes to stuff so it makes no real difference what I do to protect myself.

I have the same problem. I could go days ( and have) without seeing any people other than DW. But the problem is that she saw on the internet that social interaction offsets dementia, so she interacts with a lot of people a day.

 

[W2R]

I usually visit my 82 year old mother about two hours away every week or so, but I'm holding off for a bit.

Good idea, and she'll probably appreciate the fact that you are being so considerate. Maybe you can call her on the phone instead. Our hearts are with everyone in your area, which seems to be the worst hit with this in the country so far.

My elderly neighbor, over 80 and with longstanding respiratory problems, will decide by noon today whether she and I go to an event tonight. I've advised her not to, and advised her to speak with her doctor. But ... she loves to be out in social situations. Right now, I think she won't go.

Good! Just imagine how awful you would feel if she came down with COVID-19 after going to that event.

 

[tmm99]

I washed and cut up some cucumbers just a little while ago, and now I'm thinking about grocery shopping. Someone (I think IRL, not here) said they were going to use the pickup service to avoid going out in public, but to me that isn't much help, because you still have the products that a bunch of other people touched. At best, the grocery stockers and the Instacart/Peapod/store picker, but probably at least a few customers, too.

Now I'm thinking I should pay extra and get the shrink-wrapped cucumbers, even though they're twice as much. But then, I'd still be handling the wrappers.

What do you all think in general about how we can better handle grocery shopping, which is hard to avoid, and in particular produce purchasing?

We're not quite ready to break into our dehydrated food buckets yet!

By not going grocery shopping yourself, you're avoiding all the interactions you would have with other people and things (your credit card/wallet you touch, your shopping cart, sneezing people) in the store, or a hassle of worrying about touching your face. That's the main benefit. You will still need to disinfect the products delivered, like using alcohol spray on the cucumber wrapper, and disinfect all other packaging materials. I wouldn't buy fresh veggies that are not in packaging unless I'm planning to cook them. (Eg. A head of lettuce with no wrapper is a bad idea (unless I'm planning to saute the lettuce), but a packaged salad is OK.)

Not that I do this, but theoretically speaking, I could and I might in the future...

 

[ziggy29]

I have this problem too. I want to stay and home but DW just goes to stuff so it makes no real difference what I do to protect myself.

Same here. I am becoming more and more of a homebody as I get older, but my better half starts getting cabin fever, so to speak, after being home for a day or two.