Curious about umbrella liability policy experience

[aleabo]

State Farm MN: 2M $389

Metlife, $200 (or so) 1M

 

[Chicken-carbonara]

I'm paying over $700 with Geico for $3 million. Interested in hearing what companies are charging more reasonable rates as I don't think mine is a good deal. I understand the number of cars and homes you have can influence the premium.

 

[MichaelB]

Is there some guidance or rule of thumb on the amount of insurance to purchase? is it something close to net worth?

Not really. Most insurers have a limit of $2M - $3M or so, but coverage should be what you can afford and enough to cover a typical lawsuit in your area, if there is such a thing.

I'm paying over $700 with Geico for $3 million. Interested in hearing what companies are charging more reasonable rates as I don't think mine is a good deal. I understand the number of cars and homes you have can influence the premium.

Homes, cars, licensed drivers, pets, pool.

 

[2B]

Not meaning to hijack, but as a general consideration would like to know from those who have umbrella coverage, is it standalone or is it provided by your homeowner's and/or auto insurer?

Reason for asking is that I am transitioning away from Geico, starting with auto, working on homeowner's and next step will be umbrella coverage which I do not currently have.

I have my insurance with State Farm. To get an umbrella policy with them, you need to have home owners or renters insurance and auto insurance with them. After I sold my house and rented for a while, I was told I needed renters insurance (real cheap) to keep the umbrella.

 

[pb4uski]

You can in Texas also... I think what the poster meant was that if you declined to carry that insurance, then the umbrella would also not cover it... I have read that somewhere... the umbrella is supposed to be the second line of defense, not the first...

I can see where they do not want to try and cover everything when the premiums are so low...

I guess I wasn't clear. I have UM/UIM coverage on my auto policy so I could have UM/UIM coverage on my umbrella or I could decline it on the umbrella.

 

[MichaelB]

I guess I wasn't clear. I have UM/UIM coverage on my auto policy so I could have UM/UIM coverage on my umbrella or I could decline it on the umbrella.

UM/UIM on an umbrella is a lot of coverage. If you have health care insurance the additional coverage in the umbrella would be for lost wages & pain and suffering. How does the premium compare to disability?

 

[Finance Dave]

I've carried an umbrella liability for many years. I've looked at past threads and assume most who've accumulated substantial assets do as well. Anyone care to relate how it protected them in an unfortunate incident? I'm not considering abonadoning it by any means, just curious. Figured if anyone doesn't have it such stories might motivate them to learn more and get it.

I'd guess the most frequent use would be vehicle accident that involves serious long term disability. Then again, I have two Basset hounds, doubt they seriously disfigure anyone .

I have a $1M policy, I think the cost is about $180/year, but I'm not at home so cannot check.

My biggest concern is being sued. Say you have a painter in your house, and she's on a ladder and falls because you waxed the floor the day before and forgot to tell her it was slippery. She has a severe injury, and sues you for medical bills, pain and suffering. I've worked too hard all my life to have someone take all my assets because of something like that...so I bought the policy.

One watch-out. When I bought mine, it was required that I increase the coverages on my auto for "per occurrence" from the state minimums to a much higher number. Again, I don't have the exact numbers, but let's say liability coverage in Indiana is $150k minimum...they required that I have $300k. This caused my car insurance to go up...so the cost is not really the $180/year...but $180 plus the increase in the auto coverage...which I think was another $200/year.

I may increase mine to $2M soon...as our assets keep growing.

 

[East Texas]

None of us have the crystal ball that lets us know when the circumstances come together and puts us at the wrong place at the wrong time. You just don't know. That's why insurance is all about the risk.

That's also why I have the policies I have as well as the coverages and limits I am comfortable with so I can step behind that veil of protection and let my insurance company take care of everything. They will also provide me legal representation at no additional cost.

If the accident is my fault, I want the other party I injured to have all the reasonable resources available to get them back to the pre-accident state. If the accident is someone else's fault, then I want all the reasonable resources available to get me and people in my car back to the pre-accident state with the least amount of friction as possible. That means I want enough first party coverages on my policy to take care of me - and passengers in my car - immediately without regard to fault.

One other point that needs to be made - not all your passenges have health insurance so having the right kind of insurance is also a social responsibility.

I don't have to worry about losing my financial security. I know I can fast-track to rehab without wondering if the other company will pay.

One important part of UM/UIM/UMPD/UIMPD. We all understand UM/UMPD - the other party caused the accident and is uninsured. There's a little tricky thing about UIM/UIMPD that is so far in the back of my memory bank I can't retrieve it. The other party has insurance; but, it's not enough to cover your losses. <someone needs to check on this> your UIM/UIMPD must be higher than their BI/PD for this coverage to kick in and THEN your Umbrella will provide excess coverage should you need it. This normally happens when the UIM/UIMPD limits are lower than the limits you have on BI/PD. <this really needs to be confirmed or hopefully one of you has the answer>

 

[SJ1_]

Not meaning to hijack, but as a general consideration would like to know from those who have umbrella coverage, is it standalone or is it provided by your homeowner's and/or auto insurer?

Reason for asking is that I am transitioning away from Geico, starting with auto, working on homeowner's and next step will be umbrella coverage which I do not currently have.

we have everything with one company.

 

[Finance Dave]

One other point that needs to be made - not all your passenges have health insurance so having the right kind of insurance is also a social responsibility.

Wow, I can't agree with that. To me, the social responsibility is for those who are able to get insurance do so.

Maybe not everyone has health "insurance", but everyone has accessibility to health "care". Even the indigent have a safety net. I don't see it as my responsibility to carry health insurance for those who for some reason unwilling to get it. If they are unable to get insurance...they would be covered by the safety net. The poor and indigent are covered by Medicaid.

I have some relatives with no health insurance. I've seen them have children, get injured, have car accidents...and every time they are treated at a medical facility...not turned away.

 

[Finance Dave]

Is there some guidance or rule of thumb on the amount of insurance to purchase? is it something close to net worth?

That's how I based mine...but there's nothing that says you have to cover all your NW. Some people are comfortable covering 80% of it for example. You can do that via a higher deductible, or a lower coverage amount.

 

[Finance Dave]

Not meaning to hijack, but as a general consideration would like to know from those who have umbrella coverage, is it standalone or is it provided by your homeowner's and/or auto insurer?

Reason for asking is that I am transitioning away from Geico, starting with auto, working on homeowner's and next step will be umbrella coverage which I do not currently have.

Ours is through the same company as our auto coverage and HO. I don't think it has to be this way, but you get the "multiple policy" discount...so it often works best that way.

 

[ziggy29]

One watch-out. When I bought mine, it was required that I increase the coverages on my auto for "per occurrence" from the state minimums to a much higher number.

Same here. We had to go to a base 500K liability on homeowners and 300/500 on auto. But the good news is that the umbrella limits are, as I understand it, *above and beyond* the base coverage. So in my case, a $1M umbrella policy on top of a $500K homeowners policy provides $1.5M of protection as far as I can tell.

 

[Buckeye]

One watch-out. When I bought mine, it was required that I increase the coverages on my auto for "per occurrence" from the state minimums to a much higher number. Again, I don't have the exact numbers, but let's say liability coverage in Indiana is $150k minimum...they required that I have $300k. This caused my car insurance to go up...so the cost is not really the $180/year...but $180 plus the increase in the auto coverage...which I think was another $200/year.

$340 for $1MM.

Like Finance Dave, the additional cost of the increased liability limits (increased to $300k/$500k costing a total of $900 annually) was an additional $240 per year for 3 cars and 2 insured drivers (mom borrows car #3 once in awhile).

Our auto insurance is with USAA but our renter's insurance (with required $300k liability limit) is with another company (Universal?) through a local broker. Because all our polices are not with USAA (they won't write renter's insurance in FL), we were sub-contracted out to a USAA preferred provider, USLI, for our Umbrella policy. USAA is our "agent" for our umbrella policy.

I had been procrastinating about getting an Umbrella policy until I served as a juror for a mock jury. When you hurt a relatively young person permanently, lifetime medical costs can roll up to a very large number very quickly. I started the process of purchasing an Umbrella policy very soon after my mock jury experience.

 

[DoingHomework]

Is there some guidance or rule of thumb on the amount of insurance to purchase? is it something close to net worth?

Advice from our attorney was insure up to the level of assets not net worth. No one will sue you for your debts. I have heard the net worth recommendation given frequently though.

I'm not sure I agree with his advice but he explained his rationale: if he were going to sue us he'd be able to look up what our assets were fairly easily and that's probably what he would ask for. What he could get though would depend on our actual liability. So, if you put fear and paranoia aside and ask yourself what your realistic risks and liability might be then that could give you some guidance for your own situation.

We have carried umbrella liability for years (State Farm, AZ, $1M costs $275/yr). I agree it is cheap piece of mind.

A few years ago I was involved in a minor incident in a rental car. There was no damage to the rental car and only cosmetic damage to the other. But we reported it because it was a rental and I thought I might have been at fault (though it turns out I was not). I was amazed at how aggressive SF was at dealing with it on my behalf. I'm not sure if it was because we were so well insured with them but they definitely went out of their way to squash the claim within less than a week.

 

[Grandlakeokie]

Have had an umbrella with USAA for many years. Very cheap insurance.

A number of years back we use to RV with two other couples. The DW of one couple was a little inebriated, and fell while entering the other couples RV. Long story short, friendship ended with $175K lawsuit. It maxed out the homeowner's policy so other couple had to pay some out of pocket.

It's a tough world out there, especially when it comes to money.

 

[haha]

Excellent! Get drunk, fall down, sue your erstwhile friend, collect $175K. Where is Tony Soprano when you need him?

Ha

 

[urn2bfree]

How do assets held in trust affect the calculation of assets at risk? I understood the trust cannot be sued, so not sure how to calculate size of umbrella to insure since essentially all my assets are in trust.

 

[KingB]

How do assets held in trust affect the calculation of assets at risk? I understood the trust cannot be sued, so not sure how to calculate size of umbrella to insure since essentially all my assets are in trust.

Should assets on a 401K be excluded too?

 

[DoingHomework]

How do assets held in trust affect the calculation of assets at risk? I understood the trust cannot be sued, so not sure how to calculate size of umbrella to insure since essentially all my assets are in trust.

If you are talking about a revocable living trust then it won't do you much good if you are sued. That's something you should definitely talk with you attorney about. revocable trusts used for estate planning are for convenience and estate tax management, NOT for asset protection or taxes.

 

[Sarah in SC]

I use personalumbrella.com for the umbrella coverage. We have normal liability coverage with different companies for auto, RV, home, and boat, as it was cheaper that way. I get new quotes every other year on liability coverage and change if I find equiv coverage for less. Use a broker.

 

[ERD50]

Here's a comment/question I had on umbrella policies, from (!) 5 years ago.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/yet-another-umbrella-policy-topic-25886.html#post482351

an excerpt:

Related to increasing your coverage, please check my logic on umbrella policies. I am unable to make the connection between 'how much assets I have' and 'how much coverage I should have'. Example:

Say you have $1M 'protected' assets, $1M 'other' assets. I keep hearing that the 'conventional wisdom' says you should have a $1M umbrella policy.

But, if you get sued for $2M or more, the insurance covers $1M, and they take your unprotected $1M. So it seems to me, the amount of coverage you want is dictated more by how much you think you might get sued for, rather than how much you have to protect - right? In the above case, a $2M lawsuit with a $1M umbrella; your unprotected assets are wiped out, whether they were $1.00 or $1M. So what good was the insurance?

So if you need an umbrella equal to the amount you might get sued for to protect yourself (how can you predict that?) - it seems to be unrelated to how much assets you have. In fact, it almost seems more important to have a lot of coverage if you have smaller assets. Don't you risk an increased chance of losing it all in a suit? In the above example, if I had $3M unprotected assets, and got sued for the $2M, I'd still have $2M left (ins covered $1M I paid $1M), but if I have $500K in unprotected assets - I lose it all.

-ERD50

 

[Buckeye]

I use personalumbrella.com for the umbrella coverage. We have normal liability coverage with different companies for auto, RV, home, and boat, as it was cheaper that way. I get new quotes every other year on liability coverage and change if I find equiv coverage for less. Use a broker.

Checked their quote against the cost of my policy through USAA and I'm below by about 10%. I assumed USAA was competitive but it's good to have data.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Good for you, Buckeye. No access to USAA for us, unfortunately.

 

[Da Nag]

And it may be obvious to many, but it's worth repeating anyway -- if you are potentially liable for something, NEVER make it known that you have an umbrella or the sharks will smell blood in the water knowing there's a chance you're good for $1 million or more.

About 10 years back, my wife was in an relatively minor auto accident - her fault. We were sued, and part of the process required us to answer a deposition - by mail, not in person. There were several questions about disclosing any and all insurance, including policy liability limits.

I ignored those questions, simply replying they had no relevance. I've no idea if this would have held up if the opposing attorney pushed things - as a settlement was reached with our insurance company before things went to trial.

Certainly good advice on not offering up policy specifics...but I've always wondered if push came to shove, if one can be forced to disclose via a deposition.