Employability after felony

[ChrisC]

ratface, had no idea expunging was a possibility. I will let him know and suggest he contact a lawyer.

Well, I'm not a Texas lawyer, but if Texas law on expungements is anything like Virginia, DC or New York law on expungement, it would be an extremely tough road to hoe. In general, expungement is available to those who were "youthful offenders" under certain circumstances or who have demonstrated they were innocent of the charges brought against them.

I suspect you just can't go to a Judge and ask for your records to be expunged simply because you don't want the records to be used against you for future employment! Likewise, you probably can't go to the Governor of Texas and ask for a pardon, which would purge the taint of the conviction, simply because someone wants to remove a "disabling" feature of a felony conviction.

Let me get this straight -- and I don't mean to be harsh here -- this guy did the crime and he did the time, and now finds employment difficult as a convicted felon -- what else is new? He also probably can't vote or carry a firearm legally; there might be a process to get most of his civil rights restored in Texas, but decisions to hire him are left to employers, who may or may not cut him some slack.

 

[Westernskies]

I don't disagree, but we're not talking about rape or armed robbery here. We're talking about a relatively victimless crime, and I think a society that will shun someone for for life because of one victimless mistake and one tough life lesson is a society that has its undergarments on way too tight.

I could go on and on about the stupid way society treats drug use as a horrible crime and not as a medical issue, but that would be a hijack. So I'll stop here.

Have you actually ever seen anyone who is addicted to meth? It is horrible, nasty stuff, it ruins the life of the users and everyone around them. Anyone convicted of making or distributing this stuff should be taken out behind the courthouse and shot, IMO. Meth is not a" victimless crime" (not sure how you even quantify such inane terminology, but maybe we need a new thread for that subject...) If this guy was involved in meth (since he served time, it was probably for making or selling it?) he deserves every second of the time he served. Rant over.

As for his career prospects after serving his time, I wish him the best, but he created his own resume when he elected to get involved in meth. The job market is tough enough for honest, law-abiding citizens and illegal immigrants right now, anyone with a felony monkey on their back is going to find it almost impossible. I believe we have a long-time poster on this forum who may have some positive insight to share on the situation.

 

[FinallyRetired]

If this guy was involved in meth (since he served time, it was probably for making or selling it?) he deserves every second of the time he served. Rant over.

I understand the emotions behind your rant, and don't expect you to know details of the case. Suffice it to say, he was just a user. He was caught in a police bust in which the seller was a member of the police dept. They probably decided to make this a model case against police involvement by locking everyone up. Even his parole officer thought he got an overly harsh sentence.

But it doesn't matter, this is immaterial to my question, which was about how to help someone like this become, once again, a responsible tax-paying member of society, now that he's clean. Sadly, it's a very tough situation, but I think the best suggestion is for him to start his own business.

 

[Martha]

It will always be there to an extent but there is a way to minimize it. He has to hire an attorney and get it expunged. A judge will then issue an order that it be removed from his records and that order will be served to local authorities. The expungement has to be done on local, state, and federal levels to be effective and price goes up accordingly. Once expunged he can legally answer the arrest question in the negative. If done correctly the actual records will not show up but the expungement will. The expungement order will be signed by a judge and read something to the extent that on such and such a date the arrest for possesion was expunged under order number 123456 and is effective on 29 april 2009. It's complicated and not all records are eligible. When doing a background most local employers might only search locally and will never find it. The state and federal level will show the expungement which raises the question of what it was for, although it is not legal to ask that question. Working for the government is probably out but I would think he could get by a local employer. IMO it is most effective on the local level and might be worth a few hundred bucks to get it done.

States differ on whether you can do this and what grounds are required.

 

[Martha]

Everyone should be able to work if they are able. To exclude someone because of a prior conviction just leads to an underground economy and further crime. He paid his debt, now he needs a chance. I wish that people did not have to disclose crimes except for specific jobs and specific crimes where the risk is high (sex offenders dealing with kids, fraud criminal dealing as bank tellers, that kind of stuff).

My rant over.

He probably has the skills for his own business which likely is the way to go. The Fed has being putting his heart into his ventures and making a go of it.

 

[FUEGO]

Isn't there some new tax provisions to give a couple thousand bucks in tax credits if you hire someone from a "disadvantaged background" or something like that. I'm referring to a federal program here.

From a quick google search of "hire felon tax credit" it looks like Washington State, Philly, and a few other cities/states provide a few thousand in tax credits for hiring ex felons.

 

[FUEGO]

One other idea: The unemployment office (where you go to file unemployment claims). They usually have job placement assistance and maintain job banks. Talk to a jobs counselor and find places that don't place high important on a clean criminal background check.

 

[ziggy29]

From a quick google search of "hire felon tax credit" it looks like Washington State, Philly, and a few other cities/states provide a few thousand in tax credits for hiring ex felons.

That, IMO, is just silly. From a social standpoint it almost makes sense in some ways -- it's in everyone's best interest that they become productive and have a disincentive to reoffend -- but as much as I don't think we should stamp someone "permanently unemployable," I think giving them an advantage over people who've played it straight all their life is a bad idea.

Perhaps shielding employers from some liability related to hiring known felons when it makes sense to do so (like Martha said, no sex offenders around kids, no embezzlers handling money). I think that would remove at least some of the fear that HR and legal departments have about hiring people with a record.

 

[FUEGO]

That, IMO, is just silly. From a social standpoint it almost makes sense in some ways -- it's in everyone's best interest that they become productive and have a disincentive to reoffend -- but as much as I don't think we should stamp someone "permanently unemployable," I think giving them an advantage over people who've played it straight all their life is a bad idea.

I think further study is required. As much as I despise ill thought out government programs with perverse incentives, this one may make sense. Recidivism runs high. Two things that drives people back to the life of crime are (1) nothing better to do/boredom, and (2) need for money/stuff. Jobs, if they could get them, would partially solve 1, and mostly solve 2.

Running criminals through the CJ system and then housing them on the government dime isn't cheap. It is very expensive actually. It would probably be a lot cheaper to just give people a welfare check, a quarter bag of weed and a shopping cart full of 40 oz's every week than it is to house them in medium or max security prison. Although those darn perverse incentives and unintended consequences might taint this program.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

When I was a pre-teen and teen, my family, friends, and school made it very clear to me that committing a felony led to jail time and never being able to get a conventional job again. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would grow up in this day of TV and the internet NOT know that this was the consequence of committing a felony, prior to doing it.

So, I am sure your friend has considered what his plans would be in the event that he was caught. He made a decision, and I don't mean to be overly harsh, but in my opinion he is responsible for the (very predictable) outcome.

I suppose that if I were absolutely determined to become a felon, I would resign myself before the fact to the possibility that I might have to be a maid or some such thing for the rest of my life, likely paid off the record as is done for illegals. Perhaps your friend could do the same as a janitor or gardener. He could mow lawns or be a handyman.

So we make him permanently unemployable after his sentence, then watch him sink into abject poverty, possibly go back to drugs, and live off welfare, Medicaid, charity, back to jail, whatever. Not sure that accomplishes much for him or for society.

It seems to me to be a little more complex than branding every felon as a leper who deserves whatever jobless misfortunes society has to inflict for the next 40 years, especially if he is skilled, has not been violent, has not repeated his offense, etc. I'm not soft on crime and punishment as a rule, but there's got to be someone who gets a second chance, no? And aren't there all different kinds of felony? Would you ban all of them from employment, or just the ones our "leaders" feel are especially egregious?

I understand the reaction but am not sure it is well thought out.

 

[ratface]

Martha is right about different states having different conditions. I'm in Illinois a very liberal state and have not seen to many denied.Texas may be a lot more difficult. Expungements have many variables and on occasion can work. I have been in LE for nearly 27 yrs. and had the pleasure of conducting background investigations for many years. You can not get personal on these investigations nor take anything on face value. The investigator being one of the aforementioned variables. Expungements are a legal remedy that may or may not work. The reason not to get personal is best illustrated by an example: It was policy to deny employment based on a single admission of cocaine use on an application. Candidate told the truth. Candidate was denied. I went to testify to the standard. Candidate presented credible evidence that the single incident occured while she was being raped by three men in an abandoned building who threatened to kill her if she refused the coke. She won!

 

[HFWR]

It would probably be a lot cheaper to just give people a welfare check, a quarter bag of weed and a shopping cart full of 40 oz's every week than it is to house them in medium or max security prison. Although those darn perverse incentives and unintended consequences might taint this program.

Where do I apply?

 

[ziggy29]

The reason not to get personal is best illustrated by an example: It was policy to deny employment based on a single admission of cocaine use on an application. Candidate told the truth. Candidate was denied. I went to testify to the standard. Candidate presented credible evidence that the single incident occured while she was being raped by three men in an abandoned building who threatened to kill her if she refused the coke. She won!

This is a perfect example of why "zero tolerance" sucks as a policy. Heck, even if it were a voluntary, short-term youthful indiscretion it's a stupid policy, especially if the person in question had been otherwise completely clean and productive for many years since.

 

[FUEGO]

Where do I apply?

This is so funny. I almost decided to mention you by name along with the welfare check, bag o dope and 40 oz's, but thought discretion was the right way. But yes, this program would be right up your alley. You can have the place right in front of me in that line! Prolly be a long waiting list though...

 

[Sam]

It will always be there to an extent but there is a way to minimize it. He has to hire an attorney and get it expunged.
...
It's complicated and not all records are eligible.

I never knew this. So, is there a list of what can and cannot be expunged? Or is it at the judge's discretion?

A son of a friend committed a robbery when he was 18. Caught, convicted and spent the last 3 years in jail in northern Cali. He will be out soon on probation. Is this expungement something my friend should look into for his son?

Sam

 

[aaronc879]

I didn't realize it was THAT hard to get a job with a felony. I thought that after being released they were actually givin help finding jobs. I work 12 hours a night with a guy who spent 25 years in prison. He hasn't said what for but i'm assuming murder. He's still on probabtion and has to check in with his PO. I think your friend should keep looking. Someone will hire him.

 

[FinallyRetired]

Martha is right about different states having different conditions. I'm in Illinois a very liberal state and have not seen to many denied.Texas may be a lot more difficult.

From searching around, looks like it's pretty much impossible in Texas, except for Class C misdemeanors (ie traffic tickets), or a pardon from the governor. Here's the pertinent part of the Texas law.

Art. 55.01. RIGHT TO EXPUNCTION. (a) A person who has been placed under a custodial or noncustodial arrest for commission of either a felony or misdemeanor is entitled to have all records and files relating to the arrest expunged if:
(1) the person is tried for the offense for which the person was arrested and is:
(A) acquitted by the trial court, except as provided by Subsection (c) of this section; or
(B) convicted and subsequently pardoned; or
(2) each of the following conditions exist:
---------------------------------------------
I can pretty much summarize the list of conditions as "if pigs fly."

 

[FinallyRetired]

I didn't realize it was THAT hard to get a job with a felony. I thought that after being released they were actually givin help finding jobs. I work 12 hours a night with a guy who spent 25 years in prison. He hasn't said what for but i'm assuming murder. He's still on probabtion and has to check in with his PO. I think your friend should keep looking. Someone will hire him.

Don't know what state you are in, but in his case in Texas, the state-run rehab facility had a program that taught the inmates how to find jobs after release. They even had a contract with a local firm that hired the prisoners, at minimum wage, doing basic jobs while they were finishing their rehab program. What they didn't tell them is that, after they got released, their felony record would make it nearly impossible for them to be hired without that special contract.

I'm glad your friend was able to get a job, if he was in for murder maybe there's hope for my friend who has no violence in his record. I suspect the poor economy is a big factor. If there's two people applying for the same job, one has a felony on his record, the other one does not, guess who will get the job. And, as mentioned before, if the job requires bonding, forget it with a felony.

 

[ChrisC]

Here's my advice; have him look for jobs with the Federal Government as a wage-graded employee; many agencies or military bases employ skilled trade workers; for most Federal agencies, a felony conviction won't disqualify you from employment (and many routine background investigations for federal employment only require reporting of felony convictions occuring within the last seven years). However, the conviction may be a factor in determining his "suitability" for employment, which may not be a factor for a wage-graded employee working, for example, in the carpentry shop at a regional GSA building in Austin TX or a shop in the Federal Courthouse in El Paso TX. If he got a job there, this would also improve his marketability if he tries to get employment later.

My advice to the young man who is being released from the big house is that military service has a "sanitizing" effect on the "prior bad acts" of youthful offenders. If he can join the military and serve his country well, then many employers will just read past the felony conviction when he starts looking for a job after military service.

 

[ziggy29]

My advice to the young man who is being released from the big house is that military service has a "sanitizing" effect on the "prior bad acts" of youthful offenders. If he can join the military and serve his country well, then many employers will just read past the felony conviction when he starts looking for a job after military service.

That's a good point. I think a lot of employers would see several years in the military with an honorable discharge as representing a "growing up" and responsibility-building experience for someone who offended at such a young age.

 

[dex]

That's a good point. I think a lot of employers would see several years in the military with an honorable discharge as representing a "growing up" and responsibility-building experience for someone who offended at such a young age.

Not so fast.
Army.com - Can I Join the Army with a Felony?

But I like the idea of "working off" some felonies in the military.

 

[FinallyRetired]

Here's my advice; have him look for jobs with the Federal Government as a wage-graded employee; many agencies or military bases employ skilled trade workers; for most Federal agencies, a felony conviction won't disqualify you from employment (and many routine background investigations for federal employment only require reporting of felony convictions occuring within the last seven years). However, the conviction may be a factor in determining his "suitability" for employment, which may not be a factor for a wage-graded employee working, for example, in the carpentry shop at a regional GSA building in Austin TX or a shop in the Federal Courthouse in El Paso TX. If he got a job there, this would also improve his marketability if he tries to get employment later.

What a great suggestion, so far he has only applied for civilian jobs through newspaper ads and referrals. Did I mention he is a 30% disabled Vietnam vet? He would also qualify for a 10 point preference with a federal job. Just hope this wouldn't be another wild goose chase for him, he's gotten his hopes up so many times, but if he doesn't keep trying he will never get hired.

 

[FinallyRetired]

Not so fast.
Army.com - Can I Join the Army with a Felony?

But I like the idea of "working off" some felonies in the military.

I love this part:

There's no such thing as a "sealed" or "expunged" record, as far as the military is concerned. The military requires (under federal law) that such records be revealed on enlistment and security clearance paperwork. Failure to do so is a felony.

So let me get this straight. You have a felony, and in your state you are able to get it expunged. You apply for the Army and you don't state your felony because it's expunged. But the Army tells you there ain't no such thing in the Army and since you didn't write down that you had a felony, you now have .... another felony!!

I love the Army way of thinking

 

[ziggy29]

he's gotten his hopes up so many times, but if he doesn't keep trying he will never get hired.

And don't assume it's only because he's a felon. What I quoted above currently applies to my wife as well, and she has a college degree and never so much as a parking ticket.

 

[Texas Proud]

The reason not to get personal is best illustrated by an example: It was policy to deny employment based on a single admission of cocaine use on an application. Candidate told the truth. Candidate was denied. I went to testify to the standard. Candidate presented credible evidence that the single incident occured while she was being raped by three men in an abandoned building who threatened to kill her if she refused the coke. She won!

To me this is a bad example... I would never had said I took cocaine... to me I did not 'take' it, but it was forced into my body with the threat of great harm or death...


Edit to add... I remember a boss a LONG time ago who had an operation... she had allergies etc... and she felt a bit strange after the operation... she asked the doctor and he said it might have been the cocaine they gave her to open her sinuses... so, did she use cocaine? (maybe this was a made up story... but she swears that is what the doctor told her)...