Getting my daughter off the RayinPenn Dole...

Yeah!

Get those needy kids back in the mills where they belong and work 'em 12 hours a day - :)
 
Ray, you should put all your post (of this kind) in a book.. a title suggestion .. "Chicken soup for the ER Soul".
 
Our daughter is bipolar with a very disagreeable personality. We are working hard not to be enablers--going to therapy, etc.
Last year, she didn't protect her car keys and someone ran my car off in a ditch 20 miles away. When we returned from April in Europe, we found our car in police lockup where some felon attempted to allude police--$550 to get the car back. I kept the car and our daughter is on Ankle Express.
Our daughter tested positive a year ago for drugs, and Family Court ordered no contact with her two kids. She failed to do what was required to have parential rights and we have permanent custody of a 6 year old. DHR is running is crazy while we are great grandparents.
Our daughter was living in a nice home I provided--bought at a great price. She never got a job to provide insurance or property taxes. My house was turned into a hangout for drug dealers, ex-convicts and undesirable people whom had no cars or places to be. I had to evict her to avoid the state from taking the property as a drug nuisance house.
Our daughter is sleeping on park benches and her old "friends" have turned their backs on her. She refuses to accept that her recreational drugs are toxic and fry users'minds. And she thinks we are going to eventually provide transportation.
It breaks our hearts to see a 29 year old going downhill, but her life is to this point a product of her bad life decisions. Our consciences are clear, and we are sticking to our guns.
Last Saturday, a real estate agent and her plumber brothers offered to buy our extra house for what we paid for it. We considered their offer a God thing--after some hard negotiations. Hopefully it is a start of better days.
Now we spend half our nights praying some good person will come into our daughter's path and lead her in a different direction in life.
 
Danmar said:
This is a relevant current topic to me. Every family is different and I don’t need anyone telling me “I’m doing it all wrong”. Suffice to say we have been extremely generous to my 33 year old DD. You name it, and we have done it. Result has been wonderful. She is a hard working, intelligent, street smart young woman. Biggest issue remaining is her need to buy a house in Toronto’s very expensive market. But the “Bank of Dad” will be there. She never asks for anything(doesnt have to) and never acts “entitled”. I am very happy that we are in a position to help. Couldn’t have worked out any better.
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pd the downpayments of both kids homes. SF Bay Area is expensive and I like having them both within 2 miles of me. Son is doing awesome, daughter is struggling. But at least they're both on their own now. Her eldest son will graduate college owing approximately 15,000. Her next kid hasn't a clue. He's a little upset that he can't apply to a regular school because his GPA is barely 2.0. Guess it's community college or work for him
 
+1 Awful what you are going through.

DW frequently laments that DS is not living up to his potential... while I agree I try to tell her to look at the good things... he is living on his own, working regularly (albeit in a low wage job) and providing for himself, he is not into alcohol or drugs, he is paying his own expenses and saving money. True, he lives in a dump, but that is his choice (and it is really cheap). A friend buried his son earlier this summer from a drug overdose so while I had higher hopes for DS, I count my blessings too.
 
We are working with this on 2 of our kids now. We have 3.

The oldest is off our payroll entirely. This is not going well for the oldest because of poor choices on the part of the oldest. But, we did help to the point we could but the last couple of years no more.

The two right now are very different situations. DS recently graduated college and decided to go to grad school. That is fine, actually great. But, we had always made it clear that grad school was on him financially. We are giving him some money to help him move out and get establishes (we planned this years ago and would have done at when he graduated college even if he had gotten a job instead of grad school). But, he has gotten himself a student loan (this is a state school so not a crushing expense and his field is a high income field so not worried about it) and found a part-time job that doesn't conflict with school to cover ancillary expenses.

We are currently getting us unentangled with him financially. He is staying on our phone plan but will be paying us for his part.

The most difficult part to decide is health insurance. DH's retiree insurance provides an HRA for me and the kids. It is helpful but doesn't cover all of the premiums. I am on a great plan, but it is super expensive. And, if I cover my 2 younger kids on the plan it costs us a lot out of pocket for the extra premium. On the other hand, if I dropped them from my plan they could use the HRA to buy an ACA policy at far less cost. It would be an HMO but the network looks OK. I am inclined to tell our son that he can stay on the plan I'm on but he has to pay for the share of the extra cost that it costs us to have him on the plan. Or he can take the HRA money and get a much cheaper ACA plan. I'll decide once I see the ACA offerings.

My daughter is a different situation. Actually, somewhat similar to Bamaman but younger and no kids and not at the stage of his daughter. She is bipolar also. We've done a lot to try to help her. Currently we've been helping her with living expenses while she is trying to be stable in employment and get work experience. This is very much a 2 steps forward, 1.5 steps back sort of thing. That is, she does make progress then something happens. But, the bottom line is that we can't afford to continue to support her. We've basically supported her for the last 2 years and we really just can't keep doing it and I don't really think at this point it is in her interest for us to do it. Early on, we did it because she was getting help and the idea was for us to help her while she was getting help and becoming more functional. She did eventually get a job but she has had a lot of spotty work history (not all of that was her fault. For example, she lost one job because of missing work due to a physical illness. The good news is that after having surgery she went back to them and they have re-hired her.)

But when we agreed to help her with expenses this year we told her very clearly that we would not be able to continue it for more than a year. It is difficult in that she really does have an illness. But, she often doesn't do the things that would help her. And, she doesn't seem to really seriously accept that she has to support herself. So she has spent money frivolously when she didn't have money for expenses. Of course, I recognize that is partly the bipolar. At the same time she has decided not to take her medication.

Regardless, she is an adult and we have made clear that we have spent as much on her as we can afford to spend without jeopardizing our own financial well being. I'm hoping she will learn and will use the help she has available.
 
DD fled the family home and an abusive boyfriend at age 19. Wasn’t ready for college and had been unemployed. Lived for 10 months with a relative in a very LCOL area and found but couldn’t hold jobs. Ultimately moved to her own apartment, which we loaned her $to get. Quitting with no notice and not having a job lined up wasn’t smart. Bailed her out for a few more months until she ultimately decided to move home at age 20 to get a job with a friend and pay off her debts. But was wooed by a new boyfriend and moved out after staying 3 days. We said that’s fine, you are making an adult decision but don’t expect any more money. She is now off the dole. If she was making progress toward life goals we would probably feel differently. But she’s not, so we’re not. And I am not working one more year because she can’t hold a job.

DS is in his fourth out of five years of college. Changed his major to computer science so he will take an extra year, which is fine. He stayed at home for two years going to the local community college. So, we are paying for in state public school out of a 529 account. No car yet. We will help him with one over winter break, but he will pay his insurance out of a fair amount of $ he has saved up. He’s making progress.
 
GoBears said:
DS is in his fourth out of five years of college. Changed his major to computer science so he will take an extra year, which is fine. He stayed at home for two years going to the local community college.
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Wow! This sounds like DS. He switched his major to CS and ending up taking extra time for that. He lived at home also while going to CC. And, then after he graduated he looked for a job for a little while and then realized that everything he really wanted to do he needed to know more so he went back to grad school (where he is now paying for that himself).
 
Bamaman said:
Our daughter is bipolar with a very disagreeable personality... It breaks our hearts to see a 29 year old going downhill.
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Bamaman

Although I tell my tales often with 'tongue in cheek' your daughters story is a hard reality check. I don't forget for a moment that I am blessed with two well adapted kids...

I too hope the magic gong sounds and your daughter changes direction. It happens all the time ...

Oh it sounds like you've done all you can do; None of us are perfect parents...
 
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My step-son, who I love, made a lot of bad decisions growing up, including moving out of our house, at age 13, so he could live with his "real" dad who was an alcoholic, living off a "disability" (which didn't preclude him from deer hunting, or doing carpentry "on the side"), and had no rules. Fast Forward 10 years and guess who wants to move back in. Mom just assumed he would because seemingly he had no where else to go.
I said, OK, but we are going to have a conversation and an exit strategy, and the conversation is going to go something like this:
"well you are here because you recognize you've mismanaged the last 10 years and you need us to help you get back on your feet. So, throw away the skateboard, you won't have time to use it. Unless you are at work, you will be home by 10PM. You will take on two jobs, and turn over every cent to your mom. When you have accumulated enough to get an apartment, you will do so".....Guess what? He found another place to live. FF another ten years and he's still out there on his own, making it work, not living under my roof.
 
rayinpenn said:
A few weeks ago I told my gainfully employed Daughter (after she received her second paycheck) that I expected her to get her own Credit Card and pay for her own gas. She applied online and was immediately approved by Citibank - card to follow in a week or so. About 3 weeks later I am sitting having breakfast and see a credit card and some paperwork on the table. I ask the wife what is this credit card doing here? "It's your daughters". I am on to them- The Mrs is a softie and will allow the daughter to bleed me as long as possible. When I finally catch up with my daughter I make it clear no more gas on my card. She's got no student debt (Thanks mom and Dad), no rent, a 2 year old car that we bought for her and a nice salary. She is getting off the RayiPenn Dole! And when I tell her she says "you are mean". Yep thats me, Mean. I think she just doesn't like hearing it. Your off "the gravy train".

Yesterday I walked Dusty early and noticed the windows on my daughter car were frosted. I thought I hope she warms that car up and defrost those windows before she leaves at 6:45AM. I heard the Mrs talking to her about her Car's state inspection which was due. Well to make a long story short -she doesn't know it but a remote starter is getting installed as we speak.

Yeah, like I said the wife is a softie- Me I am hard as nails... hard as nails i tell you!

Care to share your "off the dole' experience -id love to hear it.
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When both kids were old enough (think 16), they received debit cards that had limits. Not sure if that is still possible. These were tied into one of our accounts. I did not manage that.

Cell phones were just becoming a necessity, in the 00's, and I do recall that being a problem with both kids in middle and high school. We were not in the best position financially, so I had to be really cheap about things. I recall giving my HS son a quarter so he could call me if he needed a ride home after school. I'm sure he thought I was the cheapest SOB ever.

Daughter had it better, but always thought brother got more. Funny, we are still on the same phone plan. Now, she pays the bill each month with my CC. In her first job she nailed down a 20% discount on the plan, and became the primary account holder. Each month she sends $$$ to my checking acct, to pay her share. Actually, she is paying more than her share. LOL.

College for both cost about the same. There were loans of course, but each knew the true cost of education. He paid off college loans with his own earnings. She had some college savings to use for that, and also worked full time during the last couple of years of college.

Daughter is more susceptible to "the sell" and it has cost her a few dollars. Now that she is on her own, the full cost of life's learning is upon her.

Son is a few years ahead of her, and knows more about the world. He has paid us back for the tuition and other things.

Some parents have it much worse, others have it much better. Most of us are stuck in the middle, which is not so bad after all.
 
Interesting thread and every child is different even if raised the same way by their parents.

I had only one son and he was easy to raise and was independent at the age of 17. He went to collage and pretty much paid his way. We helped with gas Ins. while in school but he did really did the rest on his own. Started working at age 15 and at 18 had a full time job and has worked his way up in 5 years to a 100K plus year job.

We were lucky to have a child that was so easy. I also will say he never NOT ONCE asked for money or anything. I'm very proud of him.
 
street said:
Interesting thread and every child is different even if raised the same way by their parents.

I had only one son and he was easy to raise and was independent at the age of 17. He went to collage and pretty much paid his way. We helped with gas Ins. while in school but he did really did the rest on his own. Started working at age 15 and at 18 had a full time job and has worked his way up in 5 years to a 100K plus year job.

We were lucky to have a child that was so easy. I also will say he never NOT ONCE asked for money or anything. I'm very proud of him.
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Impressive kid. Points out the wide variation in young people’s behaviour. We have friends that have had terrible experiences and we have read about some of those here. Every kid is different and how and the extent you help them (or not) will depend on how they react.
 
Reading these stories makes me think (once again) that today's youngsters have a misplaced feeling of entitlement because they received so much.

There was never a chance of that for me, since my family was lucky to have food on the table. I remember times when we subsisted on potatoes and onion sandwiches. Not quite Yorkshire, but close at times. A different world.
 
I've got two 10-month-olds at home and reading this thread is terrifying me... I don't know how to balance this all with my kids in the future. I pretty much had everything I needed handed to me, I don't know how I turned out alright but I did. I just started working and saving on my own accord, or at least I thought I did. My parents must have been playing some mind games that I'm still not aware of, I need to ask my dad what his tricks were. I remember my dad had fairly standard "gotta be home by XX:00, need to tell me where you're going" etc. rules that started to drive me nuts at the end of high school and early college (totally reasonable rules, just not what I wanted to do), so I definitely wanted to be independent. After that first taste of total freedom that first week of college I was never going back . That certainly helped. Maybe I have to just make life at home just annoying enough that they'll be motivated to get out on their own. But how to get them to leave, and also be responsible with money on their own when they do, yikes tall order indeed.

I also have no idea how I got the idea ingrained to save money and not spend every cent. I decided on my own that I wanted to start working when I was 15. And I really just saved up naturally, maybe I just didn't have anything I wanted to buy, as all basic needs were taken care of (and I was too dense to know I could have been dressing far better), but I don't know why I wanted to work in the first place then. Working at a restaurant is a social affair too, but I didn't know that going in.

I also had money left to me by my grandmothers that my parents were keeping until I turned 18. I remember once before I knew about the money, I guess around age 17, I said to my mom and sister, "Man if I had 15k, I'd but a new silver toyota celica and get a big red dragon decal down the side!" :facepalm: My mom just made a Marge Simpson noise, maybe commented that that might not be the best use of the money. Meanwhile she knows that in a few months the plan is to hand me like 20k or so. Haha, come to think of it I think they waited until I was 18 and a half or so, maybe they needed to wait until I hadn't made any dumb comments like that for a while before they handed the cash over.

As it turned out I ended up working here and there during high school, and during summer and winter breaks through college. Saved most of everything I made. What I made plus Grandma's gift became my first car, used, bought cash, no dragon decals, and a then later a down payment on my first house.

My mom was in a wheelchair while I was in high school and college, so I was forced early on a little about having to TCOB, chores around the house, making dinner, running errands etc. Basically not having everything done for me. That's not really a teaching strategy I'm hoping to implement with my children however.
 
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Danmar said:
Impressive kid. Points out the wide variation in young people’s behaviour. We have friends that have had terrible experiences and we have read about some of those here. Every kid is different and how and the extent you help them (or not) will depend on how they react.
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I agree with this- my Ex has a sister who, with her husband, founded a hugely successful business. They're retired now and I'm pretty sure their grandchildren won't have to work. (Their son, BTW, got a Masters and is forging his own way despite the fact that as a teenager he was driving his parents' Mercedes Benzes and owned a tux.) The Ex was a brilliant inorganic chemist but a combination of bipolar disorder and self-medication with alcohol led to a downhill spiral. I divorced him (his family, bless them, has always been supportive of me) and he died 13 years later, pretty much from the ravages of alcohol abuse. His sister paid for his outpatient rehab-twice. She could have taken him in without making a dent in the budget but she never would have gotten him out again. He was a master manipulator and liked turning people against each other. She was my role model- I didn't feel guilty about not enabling him because she, who was in a far better financial position, didn't, either.

Same family, same upbringing. Some of it is just luck. I would have liked to have had a second child and it never happened. I count my blessings that the one I had didn't have his father's problems.
 
braumeister said:
Reading these stories makes me think (once again) that today's youngsters have a misplaced feeling of entitlement because they received so much.

There was never a chance of that for me, since my family was lucky to have food on the table. I remember times when we subsisted on potatoes and onion sandwiches. Not quite Yorkshire, but close at times. A different world.
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I agree that the “prevailing wisdom” has today’s kids a pampered, entitled lot. Clearly our society is much wealthier than it was say 50 years ago and this has meant our kids often have more financial support than we did. But we have to be careful not to generalize too much. My daughter’s friends are mostly impressive. well educated, hard working people. We have heard some pretty impressive stories in this thread, although many appear to fit the “prevailing wisdom”.

I am of the opinion that the future is in pretty good hands, but I’m generally an optimistic guy and I can certainly understand the alternative view.
 
I'll be sharing some of this with my mom. In our family, dad was the enabler to my brother. Mom eventually drew the line with him after she took the reigns when dad was no longer able to manage things due to health problems and dementia. A little late, unfortunately. Bro is 59 now, and would be homeless were in not for his daughter who set him up with housing near her in another state. Dad is gone now, and bro is pretty much estranged from me and mom, which has also put our relationship with his daughter at risk. She thinks her dad's behavior came about because of a recent health crisis. Really though, it started back in the 1970s.

I suspect that mom feel a little guilty about cutting him off. Hearing others' stories may ease her mind a bit.
 
Danmar said:
But we have to be careful not to generalize too much. My daughter’s friends are mostly impressive. well educated, hard working people. We have heard some pretty impressive stories in this thread, although many appear to fit the “prevailing wisdom”.
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Oh, you're absolutely right and I should have made it clear that I was only referring to the ones who serve as bad examples.

I know plenty of wonderful, responsible, enterprising young people.
 
Every family is different and each child is unique. There is no right or wrong way(excluding abusive issues) to raise your kids, you do what works for you.

As long as our kids were always moving forward towards independence, we have helped when we could. They never had their own car, but could use ours on weekends, and we provided phones in HS and college. They knew two years of collage were paid for, rest we would assist with loan payback. They were always (and still are, if needed) welcome to live at home, as long as they followed the family rules--(assist with bills and always let us know where you are going for safety sake). We've experienced some heartache through the years, but they are doing well.
Both have grown into lovely adults, and we have 2 beautiful Grandkids. We are willing to help financially if they ask, because we have the means and they are good kids. They rarely ask.
 
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