Gold

Where will the price of gold by in 5 years?

  • Over the next 5 years gold will out perform the SP500 by 10% or more

    Votes: 18 32.7%
  • Over the next 5 years gold will be with plus or minus 10% of the SP500

    Votes: 16 29.1%
  • Over the next 5 years gold will under perform the SP500 by 10% or more

    Votes: 21 38.2%

  • Total voters
    55
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
cfb: I thought about what you said also. When I was presenting my non-argument I thought it would be more important to identify the problem (too much money in the system) rather than a spoon fed answer about gold.
Theres what went wrong. I'm sure plenty of things can go wrong. Historically, plenty of things did go wrong and some that could have, didnt. I cant guess, you cant guess, nobody can guess. Thats why you lay out your asset allocation in the buckets you do and in the bucket sizes you do. Its still not clear to me what the "gold" bucket does for me. It doesnt seem to ying or yang with anything with consistency...at least not anymore. So whether the problem is currency valuations or godzilla, I dont see the benefit. Except as I've already described, the blind run to gold when 'scary' things happen, and I think that bullet may have already left the chamber.

Scientists and engineers and others trying to solve a problem first try to see it, the problem, as clearly as possible. Oftentimes, if the problem is seen correctly, the answer almost spontaniously flows out of the real problem. As you know, businessmen try to work in the same way. I didn't do an excellent job about what has been going on with our money over the past 75-92 years (since the creation of the Fed). There is much history in books and on the internet about such stuff, and they can do a much better job than me. I thought if I presented a little bit about the degeneration of money, which I see as accelerating especially over the past five years, you automatically would see gold as a spontanious answer (fake money vs. real money). History is rich with what has happened to "representative" currencies.

I've read the material that follows what you were talking about and I understand it completely. Might be perfectly reasonable and the conclusions that are described might in fact be where we end up. But I usually failed to see any basis in a lot of the claims, a fair bit of the 'discussion' adopted data that supported the beliefs while ignoring equally good data that refuted them, and there was often a lot of leaping involved to get to those conclusions.

As far as seeing gold as the spontaneous answer...nope, that didnt happen. When it was a rare metal, hard to come by, a lot of currencies were pinned to it and paper currency represented an actual holding...sure. Not today. But thats where I thought I was maybe missing something, since it seems to clear to some other people. Thats why I asked.

It doesnt help that in some of the pro-gold sites, if they started talking about UFO's and bigfoot, it would fit in well enough. :-/

I will point if you ask the correct questions, not the ones where you appear to be baiting me.

Oh give me a break. My life doesnt consist of asking people questions to see if I can set them off. I asked a legitimate question. I dont think I got a legitimate answer. I definitely had a preconceived notion, but as I said, I have an open mind. Perhaps the problem is that you made a false presumption of my intentions and proceeded from there.
 
Dow/Gold ratio

Dow/Gold ratio was in the vicinity of 20 (1970), fell to about 1.3 in 1980, then rose to 40+ around 99/00 ... a somewhat unremarkable bowl shape... has since retraced to about 20.  If the Dow were to fall back to its prior cyclical low and gold simultaneously reached its prior cyclical high, the ratio will again approach 1.  (While even less meaningful, the ratio was also in the near 1 vicinity during the 30's).

So what? The ratio, in hindsight, simply confirms that one should have sold gold at its high, and bought at its low.
 
Cute Fuzzy Bunny said:
When it was a rare metal, hard to come by, a lot of currencies were pinned to it and paper currency represented an actual holding...sure.  Not today.  But thats where I thought I was maybe missing something, since it seems to clear to some other people.  Thats why I asked.

I guess what some of us are saying, is that gold still is a rare metal, and hard to come by. The fact that we went off the gold standard and currencies are no longer pinned to it isn't because gold ceased to be rare and valuable. Gold has always been the enemy of fiat money. When the gold standard, and convertibility, were abandoned, central banks/governments could happily inflate the money supply all they liked, which is what always happens when currencies cease to be tied to gold. In the last 20+ years central banks have done their best to depress the price of gold, mask inflation, and defend their own currencies. Gold has not yet fully priced in the flood of inflation created in the last couple decades, IMO.
 
Anyone who doesn't buy gold is a Hitler loving Nazi. It is the greatest investment in the world. You can make integrated circuits out of it. You can make wedding rings out of it. I bet you can even make kayaks out of it.

Can we stop now:confused: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
Its still not clear to me what the "gold" bucket does for me
QUOTE

well for me it gave me a 34% gain on average every year over the last 3 years...heck im happy......
 
Ah yes, someone with a good long term horizon. The same was said about internet stocks in 1999.

Thanks SG, I think that pretty much caps it.
 
Re: Dow/Gold ratio

d said:
Dow/Gold ratio was in the vicinity of 20 (1970), fell to about 1.3 in 1980, then rose to 40+ around 99/00 ... a somewhat unremarkable bowl shape... has since retraced to about 20.  If the Dow were to fall back to its prior cyclical low and gold simultaneously reached its prior cyclical high, the ratio will again approach 1.  (While even less meaningful, the ratio was also in the near 1 vicinity during the 30's).

So what? The ratio, in hindsight, simply confirms that one should have sold gold at its high, and bought at its low.

Or, heaven forbid, we could view it the other way. If the ratio travels from 1 at one extreme, to 40 at the other, and makes it's way periodically over that course like a pendulum, then the lesson is as much about where to sell and buy the DOW as it is about where to buy and sell gold.
 
Post godwin, here's a good source of fairly neutral information. It provides some succinct characterizations of Greg's concerns, some good charts and data, decent basic reporting on the benefits of gold as an investment and some jumping off points to dig deeper into various subtopics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_as_an_investment

If you've never read a wiki article and dont know what it is, see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

Its basically an encyclopedia written by anyone and everyone. Anyone can edit, add to and alter elements of the information, with collective agreement by others. It is as imperfect as any source of information, but Wiki's that have "settled" tend to be good unbiased sources of relatively balanced information.
 
Ahem, there's a technical exception to Godwin if the comparison is intentionally invoked to end a thread. But as I pointed out before, the whole thing is retarded and should die.

Yes, wikipedia is pretty useful for a lot of stuff. I don't know why some people spend so much effort trying to "debunk" it on various theoretical grounds -- it really exists, and for a huge class of uses it's far better than most other resources. I was trying to be funny before when I said there should be a Wikipedia article that covers the whole thing in a few paragraphs, but I guess I failed. Anyway, there was also meant to be truth behind the joke, and I'm not disappointed!
 
Cool Dood said:
...I don't know why some people spend so much effort trying to "debunk" it on various theoretical grounds -- it really exists, and for a huge class of uses it's far better than most other resources...

Are you referring to Wikipedia or to gold?
 
Buy low, sell high.

Indeed!   Which brings me back to the question: so what?
 
d'oh.. I figured I might have been missing a joke, but thought I'd be safe by just putting one word ;)
 
HERES THE REAL TRUTH BEHIND GOLD": you would think everyone would realize that gold like other investments is worth buying when its worth buying andnot worth buying when its not in favor..id call gold an investment with a personality proble....lets see it goes up when the dollar goes up,well that is until it dosnt...it tracks oil,,,weell until it dosnt ,,,it tracks the cpi ,,,well until it dosnt,,,its a heavily used jewelry and industrial metal,,,well until its not.......
so what makes gold valuable?..the fact is now its been golds turn to go up for all the above reasons and none of the above reasons...as an investor who cares the reason....im enjoying my almost 90% gains in a little under 4 years........
hope that clears it up for all of you
 
mathjak107 said:
...as an investor who cares the reason....im enjoying my almost 90% gains in a little under 4 years........
hope that clears it up for all of you

So you're saying that all of us should invest in gold because you made money from it over the past 3+ years? :confused:
 
now you got the idea......when assets are moving and going up buy em....if they arent going up dont buy em.....
see how simple!
 
mathjak107 said:
hope that clears it up for all of you

I wish it did, but I cant make heads or tails of your posts without spending 10 minutes with the special decoder ring.
 
mathjak107 said:
now you got the idea......when assets are moving and going up buy em....if they arent going up dont buy em.....
see how simple!
sound advice from Will Rogers: "Don't gamble; take all your savings and buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it."

I see.
 
Goldfinger...
He's the man, the man with the midas touch
A spiders touch, such a cold finger
Beckons you to enter his web of sin
But don't go in!

Golden words he will pour in your ear
But his lies can't disguise what you fear
For a golden girl knows when he's kissed her
It's the kiss of death from Mister

Goldfinger!
Pretty girl beware of this heart of gold
This heart is cold! He loves only gold,
Only gold. He loves gold.
He loves only gold. Only gold...
He loves gold!
 
"Theres what went wrong. I'm sure plenty of things can go wrong. Historically, plenty of things did go wrong and some that could have, didnt. I cant guess, you cant guess, nobody can guess. Thats why you lay out your asset allocation in the buckets you do and in the bucket sizes you do. Its still not clear to me what the "gold" bucket does for me. It doesnt seem to ying or yang with anything with consistency...at least not anymore. So whether the problem is currency valuations or godzilla, I dont see the benefit. Except as I've already described, the blind run to gold when 'scary' things happen, and I think that bullet may have already left the chamber."

CFB: I guess, I guess. The ardent/strident goldbugs have spent a goodly portion of time not studying gold but the fundamentals under it, the paper currency expansion and the flows of it throughout the system, in a sense, the unseen fingers of money. (My guess, you have quickly jumped to your conclusions—although I may be wrong—but I see no evidence pointing toward my being wrong.) There is no down and dirty easy answer. I can't sprinkle fairy dust on you or click my heels together three times and say "There's no place like gold."

Here is a recent article by John Mauldin that I think proves my point. If you understand it clearly after one read, then I am wrong, and you are right. (Please be fair and honest, not with me but, rather, yourself.) I think those who have studied this subject even semi-intensively will get it immediately (if you can’t find it immediately, go to Fingers of Instability):

http://www.2000wave.com/article.asp?id=mwo040706

For me, understanding gold is relatively unimportant, having help understanding how unreal currencies have shaped our minds and behaviors is. Plus, I like to make money by attempting to understand where people will go—but before them.

Your cheese argument: Again, you’re right but in a wrong way according to my thinking. The goldbugs/bears have explained numerous times that the Fed has been pumping money into the system for numerous years. Some say that even the 80s stock boom/bubble was at least partially blown by the expansion of paper money. (See Creature from Jeckle (sp) Island) We don’t know where this created money will flow for sure, except primarily in hindsight. I can guess that as in the past during long periods of what appears to be moderate inflation it will rotate around: from a booming stock market to a booming housing market. On a smaller cycle, from oil to um uranium or silver or gold or lead. Or cheese. It, the money, will rotate in and rotate out. For basically conservative old farts that is a good reason to maintain a diversified, balanced portfolio, with perhaps a mildly heavier bucket of commodities in portions that please you. But don’t forget to rebalance. Personally, I think inflation always returns to gold and in difficult times bubbles it up with a vengeance. So my bucket has a little more than 10%, and I’ll trust my timing skills. If you buy cheese or any single commodity, you’re trusting your timing skills. As with all rebalancing schemes in a diversified portfolio, you won’t do as well as someone who chooses just one bucket and completely fills it—and then hits. I moderately rotate; that’s my choice. That’s the positive side of the cheese.

Mauldin’s article talks in the abstract about coming possible cascades. Studying gold and money creation and flows has sensitized me to this possibility—I think. I believe gold will hold up far better than other commodities in such an event. Or it will hold up better than other commodities in a series of smaller cascades over time. (If you have questions as to why, please feel free to ask.) Long bonds will be hit and fall in price at some point in the future. Maybe derivatives. Housing prices are in slow cascade mode right now. We currently have a gov’t that thinks it is invincible; they think they can manage it ALL successfully. I think not, not any more. I suspect you agree with this last comment because if you didn’t you wouldn’t be interested in the least bit in gold, would you? Enough today. DW has chores for me. But here's another fun one:

http://www.safehaven.com/article-4965.htm

Off topic: We got home from our trip to Texas the other day. We pulled into the back of the house and started to unload stuff. On the last load for me I had my arms full and a few loose items in my pockets such as three cans of beer and a couple of hand tools. As I waddled to the door, my pants started to drop. As I crossed the threshold, they fell to my ankles. I dropped everything on the kitchen counter that I could and just stood there for a moment thinking “Home at last, home at last, thank God, home at last. (I am not making this up). :D

--Greg
 
Again, the problem isnt in detemining economic concerns, its the leap to "gold is the answer". I didnt "leap" to any conclusions about the investment, I looked at the chart below, saw that gold has failed to react to any stimuli (war, peace, inflation, low rates, high rates, bull market, bear market) for about 30 years. And anyone who was invested in it during those 30 years lost money or gained nothing.

Until recently when it ran up for no apparently good reason, in the presence of factors that it didnt respond to previously, and without the presence of factors that made it respond previously.

So I bought about 3.5% because everybody said it was what you did when you ran out of other stuff to diversify, and i'm aware that in short time periods, people "run to gold" when something scares them. I lucked out by picking the only time in three decades that gold ran up, for no apparently good or identifiable reason, and I sold it and took my profit.

This is the south park gnomes stealing underwear.

1. Steal underwear
2. :confused:
3. Profit!

You've explained the underwear stealing quite well. I understand it. I understood it. You say Gold is the profit. It looks to me like gold WAS the profit maybe, depending on which underwear you were looking to steal. I still havent heard what step 2 is.
 

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Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
We got home from our trip to Texas the other day.  We pulled into the back of the house and started to unload stuff....  As I waddled to the door, my pants started to drop.  As I crossed the threshold, they fell to my ankles.  I... just stood there for a moment thinking “Home at last, home at last, thank God, home at last.  (I am not making this up). :D

Greg,

When I read this I first thought we were about to be treated to the latest adventures of Rothbard & Gweneth, but that's not the case (unless your are just 'leaving it hanging' as we await the next chapter).  This paragraph is a bit cryptic, but what I've decided is you are just trying to warn everyone they better hang on to their pants if they visit TX.  :)
 
Wahoo: I've been thinking about the next episode, mostly while listening to Rush Limbaugh while passing thru east Texas. I'm thinking about going in a different direction involving the the Rice Crispies boys, Snap, Crackle, & Pop and, of course, Gweneth. Have I mentioned their evil half-brother Tumescent. ::)

--Greg
 
CFB: I give up. You win. But I truly believe that a fair portion of the thirty year rise of the indexes, of the stock market, and fall of gold are related as money swirled all over the place, virtually all of it logical and explainable by commonly agreed upon economic rationalizations theories. But I'm not going to take you there and clog up this board with my words, guesses, theories, and data of others. Good Luck and prosper.
 
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