Guardianship liablity but no control over the ward

[Spock]

I have not read the 3 pages of replies. I barely scanned them but I can comment from the aspect of being a registered professional guardian. From what is written it seems your dad is not able to independently handle the ADL's or Activities of Daily Living. Those activities involve everything from medication management, money management, food preparation, hygiene and so on.

...

None of my research on ADLs nor Dad's LTC policy definition of ADLs mentions money management or finances.

I did just now stumble onto "Instrumental Activities of Daily Living" or IADLs that supplement the formal ADLs.
1. Basic communication skills - such as using a regular phone, mobile phone, email, or the Internet
>Dad can't work his phone, can no longer handle email, and never could "internet".
2. Transportation - either by driving oneself, arranging rides, or the ability to use public transportation
>I've taken Dad's keys. He won't arrange rides or gets into cars with strangers when they offer him a ride when he's walking somewhere.

3. Meal preparation - meal planning, cooking, clean up, storage, and the ability to safely use kitchen equipment and utensils
> safely use=no, clean up=no, he has left his freezer door open multiple times resulting in all of the meet turning grayish brown... "thats just freezer burn".

4. Shopping - the ability to make appropriate food and clothing purchase decisions
> This he does OK.

5. Housework - doing laundry, washing dishes, dusting, vacuuming, and maintaining a hygienic place of residence
>We always have to re-wash any dishes/utensils before using them.
>He rinses stuff off in a pan of dirty gray water he keeps in the sink to save water...
>last time he was there a wound on his hand started bleeding (dermatologist had recently burned off something) and he "cleaned it" using that same pan of grayish looking water.
>He's been known to mix up batches of weed killer from concentrate on his counter top... and is offended when I decline his offer of a sandwich..

6. Managing medications - taking accurate dosages at the appropriate times, managing re-fills, and avoiding conflicts
>nope. When the neuropsych interviewed him at 3PM he hadn't taken his morning meds yet.
>He is always running out or getting refill notifications when he "has plenty left yet"... suggesting he's not taking them regularly.

7. Managing personal finances - operating within a budget, writing checks, paying bills, and avoiding scams
>avoiding scams is a major no. Budget is a no... he just goes by if he has any $ in his account before making a donation... forgetting they he already donated to the same "charity" the week before.

The more examples I give the more I wonder why Drs refused to say anything other than "he's still making decisions, they're just bad decisions" a lot earlier than now. And yet even now I'm being warned since Dad "presents well" guardianship might not be a slam dunk. How bad does it have to get?!?!?

 

[firemediceric]

The court form that is used here in Florida. This is a case that is currently being litigated. There will be reports from three examining committee members who are all using the same form.

 

[ncbill]

What happens if you move them and they are so fricking abusive they get kicked out? Have an extended family member dealing with this now. It's not dementia issue it's an fyou I'll take care of myself. It's ripping the family to pieces.

Mom ended up cycling between her original locked ALF, the geriatric ward of our state mental hospital, and various nursing homes over the course of several involuntary psych commitments.

She was a petit slip of a thing so I was never able to convince the staff at the state mental hospital to keep her there full-time, though I knew a family where their loved one was a big, powerful dude with dementia who regularly "acted out" so the hospital agreed to keep him until he essentially was bed-ridden from the progress of his dementia.

Things would have been much easier for us had mom the same option as above...in retrospect maybe I should have begged harder...or bribed the administrator.

 

[Splash]

Spock, I am sorry to hear that things are escalating so quickly.

The guardian ad litem was very valuable in my situation. My lawyer contacted a lawyer he knew at another firm and requested she perform this role if approved by the court, which it was. She was an understanding and compassionate individual. When she interviewed me, I believe she saw my genuine concern for my mom’s well being and my lack of concern for “what’s in it for me”. Not only did she recommend the court approve my petitions for guardianship and protective placement, she also waived the requirement to have my mom attend the court proceedings. I understand that is not typically waived but it was a great benefit to me and to my mom. My mom went ballistic when I took her for her competency physical. She yelled at her PCP, his staff, and me. She disowned me and refused to leave the office with me. It was the most difficult part of the entire guardianship journey for me. I can’t imagine what would have happened if I had to take her to court to hear she was being declared incompetent and was being stripped of her rights. My mom had a lot of pride and was a very intelligent, independent woman before dementia.

Perhaps your lawyer can help ensure that the guardian ad litem legally representing your dad is someone as capable and compassionate as the one I experienced.

 

[pb4uski]

At least in my experiences the proposed wards each had court appointed counsel to repreent thier interests. They were both excellent... it clearly wasn't their first rodeo. But our was not at all an adversarial situation... a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[Sunset]

The problem with this idea is the guardian. There have been cases of appointed guardians being in cahoots with the care providers. Often they take the expedient action, which may not be in the ward's best interest. The Public Guardian here is limited by choices dictated from outside the office and cannot choose independently. Having a family member be the guardian is generally the better choice.

Normally the family member actually cares.
My mother told me all sorts of stories of how the appointed gov't guardian did/didn't do the "right" thing, because as a worker, the guardian always did what was easy, convenient, for themselves and they worked M-F, 9-5 and had a large caseload.

 

[firemediceric]

At least in my experiences the proposed wards each had court appointed counsel to repreent thier interests. They were both excellent... it clearly wasn't their first rodeo. But our was not at all an adversarial situation... a whole different kettle of fish.

In the judicial circuits I work in there is a list of attorneys as well as examining committee members that are on what’s called “the wheel.” These professionals are chosen at random or in sequential order to represent or examine, as the case may be, the AIP.

 

[ivinsfan]

Normally the family member actually cares.
My mother told me all sorts of stories of how the appointed gov't guardian did/didn't do the "right" thing, because as a worker, the guardian always did what was easy, convenient, for themselves and they worked M-F, 9-5 and had a large caseload.

I know you mean well but these are the kind of comments that put pressure on family members.

The OP has clearly said they have tried and tried again and cannot take on guardianship. And using the word always pretty much negates your entire comment.

 

[Spock]

Normally the family member actually cares.
My mother told me all sorts of stories of how the appointed gov't guardian did/didn't do the "right" thing, because as a worker, the guardian always did what was easy, convenient, for themselves and they worked M-F, 9-5 and had a large caseload.

We were advised not to use a 3rd party guardian for pretty much the opposite reason.

3rd party guardians are ultra-conservative when it comes to things like health care... the example given was Dr for a 90 yo terminally ill patient presents 2 options: painful invasive surgical option with a very long recovery time and something like hospice. The 3rd party guardian is going to chose the surgery to demonstrate "they did everything they could".

 

[firemediceric]

3rd party guardians are ultra-conservative when it comes to things like health care... the example given was Dr for a 90 yo terminally ill patient presents 2 options: painful invasive surgical option with a very long recovery time and something like hospice. The 3rd party guardian is going to chose the surgery to demonstrate "they did everything they could".

I disagree. When presented with a scenario such as this I will present a petition to the court with the recommendations of the treating physicians if they feel the ward should be placed in hospice. I try to present at least 2 medical opinions. Upon approval from the judge the ward will be placed in hospice.

I will never place a ward in hospice without court approval. Recently a local guardian got into very hot water for doing such. From that standpoint perhaps my actions can be labeled as “ultra conservative“ as I always seek the judges approval, but that does not mean commonsense is thrown out the window. Admittedly it does add time to the process even when the petition is filed as an emergency matter.

 

[Spock]

I disagree. When presented with a scenario such as this I will present a petition to the court with the recommendations of the treating physicians if they feel the ward should be placed in hospice. I try to present at least 2 medical opinions. Upon approval from the judge the ward will be placed in hospice.

I will never place a ward in hospice without court approval. Recently a local guardian got into very hot water for doing such. From that standpoint perhaps my actions can be labeled as “ultra conservative“ as I always seek the judges approval, but that does not mean commonsense is thrown out the window. Admittedly it does add time to the process even when the petition is filed as an emergency matter.

You are disagreeing.
But then stating you would do exactly what the consultant warned us 3rd party guardians would do.

 

[firemediceric]

Perhaps I am not understanding clearly what was stated. I read that you were saying a third-party guardian would not choose a hospice route but would rather continue grasping at straws with every possible medical procedure. That would not be the case although the guardian should have the blessing of the court before choosing the course that will ultimately result in the ward expiring

 

[Teacher Terry]

This is the reason I became guardian for a good friend of mine when her husband was dying and she had Alzheimer’s. Paid guardians don’t care as you are just a number on their caseload. It took a lot of my time. I was a social worker so familiar with what actually happens to people.

 

[Hermit]

We just placed a very good friend of mine in an alzheimer's unit last week. His wife had both a medical and financial power of of attorney. His doctor signed the form saying he could not take care of himself and that was all that was needed here in Colorado. He was not capable of arguing about it, but he was not happy about it either. After a couple of days he settled down and is now doing ok in his current surroundings. I'm glad the wife got those POAs signed while he still had the where-with-all to sign them. My daughter has those documents for me and I have told her to use them if I start giving away money in an irresponsible manner. Same for moving me to a retirement community. In my case living on the edge of civilization is not the best place for someone in poor health.