High School Best Friend Small Stroke - wife and legal recommendations?

[stephenson]

Hi All,

2023 has been a pretty awful year …

My high school best friend just had a mild stroke - wife found him on the ground early morning near where she had left him the night prior - he had decided to stay up later and (I think) smoke and drink. He has the not-unexpected health factors - significantly overweight, high BP previously treated by lisinopril (he had stopped taking some time back), no statins, CPAP for sleeping, but is active on his farm where he cares for a lot of cattle, and is building a barn. Smart, college educated guy with some (in my words) “dumb spots.”

So, compounding the bad, she takes him inside, and over the next FOUR DAYS (!) he is confused, unsteady on his feet, can’t stop saying the same word over and over - she sends me a text. I ask if he is capable of driving - she says, “no way.” I strongly recommend she take him immediately to ER. Says she tried, but he won’t go, so I recommend calling ambulance. She tells him I am coming to get him (3 hours) and he relents and lets her drive him to ER.

After two nights in hospital, determined stroke lower left brain via scans and MRI - he refuses follow-up echo for ischemia and discharges himself. She drives him home with scripts for Plavix generic and Lipitor generic (max dosage) and 81 mg coated aspirin - the right stuff (from my read). He is not at home, but continues to be confused and unsteady.

We’re past the initial medical intervention …. so now I’m considering HER position - they live (rural) on 40 acres, next to property owned by his brother - his father died two years ago and the family has just finished apportionment of the estate. One brother, two sisters, SHE is the second wife (first wife died six weeks ago). Three kids with first wife - all adults.

I know nothing about their decisions and whether they even have wills, trusts, medical directives, etc - but, I will offer to discuss with her. I do assess the brother and sisters could be a problem. His children are a bit of a mess - the usual family stuff.

My recommendations would include - assuming some/all don’t exist:
- Durable Power of Attorney (each to the other while they are reviewing)
- Wills (for both while they are reviewing) giving one another Personal Representative powers (primary) and others (children presumably) as secondary
- Trust would be good since there is property, and cattle and equipment?
- Medical Power of Attorney
- Co-owner of property (name on the deed)
- Her name on cars and anything else of value

What else? His wife has been open with us and asked for assistance, but she is both overwhelmed and not particularly worldly.

 

[OldShooter]

,,,
I know nothing about their decisions and whether they even have wills, trusts, medical directives, etc - but, I will offer to discuss with her. ... What else? ...

How about recommending that she hire a real attorney?

 

[stephenson]

Perhaps a bit early since she is caregiver mode now - but, in the next few days she should obviously meet with their attorney (more concern on my part since he apparently also has represented his siblings during their father's estate settlement).

I would, just as obviously, advise her to work with a different attorney to determine next steps ... but, it is pretty reasonable to "get her thinking" about the various documents - she may have limited knowledge about any of them ... would need to find them.

I would also add she should have on-line access to their financial accounts, should be the primary beneficiary on any IRA/401K, POD/TOD ... I am concerned he did all this and she, again, may have limited knowledge.

 

[SecondCor521]

How about recommending that she hire a real attorney?

+1. Your concern is admirable, OP, but some of what you wrote sounds like you're already making decisions for her, which is not appropriate IMHO.

But as far as what else, it would probably be smart to check to make sure she is listed as beneficiary on any life insurance policies and all major assets. It's not unheard of for the first spouse to be listed instead, which is usually not what the husband wants.

 

[stephenson]

I get your point, SecondCor521 ... except, they are rural (very) and not been much involved - we know them pretty well - in the business processes over the years (very unlike how my wife and I share information and all accesses).

Just reread my post and can't find anything about making decisions for her - I do find sort of recommended "to do" things - certainly no decisions, though.

As a BTW - some of you may have not read my threads on my experience with my late sister's horrific battle with pancreatic cancer - there were some lessons learned - like: simply because someone has said they have designated beneficiaries, it does not mean it is true. (that sort of stuff).

She sounds lost - and, given the nature of the immediate family, I assess there is some financial danger for her.

 

[stephenson]

Maybe others will benefit, as well, from reminders, lists, etc ... here is another partial quick list ...

1. Does he have a Will?
2. Are you named as his Durable Power of Attorney?
3. Are you named as his Medical Power of Attorney?
4. Do you have a Trust? (they have farm property, cattle, equipment, etc)
5. Are you on all the car/truck/equipment titles?
6. Are you on the easement to the property agreement?
7. Are you on all the financial accounts as co owner?
8. Are you named as beneficiary on any all IRA/401K accounts?
9. Are you named as beneficiary on non-IRA/401K accounts - are they POD/TOD?
10. Do you have user name and passwords for ALL financial accounts?
11. Do you have on-line access for ALL financial accounts?
12. Do you have a copy of your marriage certificate?
13. Do you have his Medicare card, his Social Security card, his drivers license, etc?

 

[aja8888]

OP, he sounds like a pretty tough guy, but strokes will take out the best of them. I've seen it in spades with a 46 year old, very healthy son-in-law.

As OldShooter recommends, an elder care attorney should be the first step.

 

[stephenson]

aja8888,

Agree - given they are so rural, even finding a local attorney that is not shared by the other relatives might be difficult. I have made that a recommendation, though, top of list.

 

[SecondCor521]

Just reread my post and can't find anything about making decisions for her - I do find sort of recommended "to do" things - certainly no decisions, though.

I was trained on KTDA (Kepner Tregoe Decision Analysis) back in my last job. Part of that was phrasing the decision as a question, and they made the point that often the decision question often implied decisions that had already been made.

For example, "Which new car should I buy?" presumes (a) I'm buying, not leasing, not borrowing, (b) I'm buying a car, not a bicycle, truck, or rocket, and (c) I'm buying new, not used.

Similarly "What kind of trust should the lawyer write up for the farm property?" presumes (a) A trust is needed, (b) we're using a lawyer, (c) the farm property is the only property that needs a trust.

In most of your bulleted (dashed?) list in the OP, there is this sort of thing going on. In general, the presumptions are reasonable and probably appropriate. In some cases, there's barely a decision to be made - I can't imagine anyone doing a DIY trust without a lawyer. But there could be stuff you don't know about their situation or their preferences or their goals or their plans that would make them not so. Starting with the presumptions may foreclose those paths of discussion and lead them into suboptimal results.

In general, I would shift from specific advice: "You both need wills with each other as the personal representative" to general education: "If you don't have a will, then state intestacy laws would decide what happens to your stuff. If you want a will, you might have the options to write a holographic one, use a software package, or have an attorney draw one up. A personal representative is the person who is responsible for executing whatever your will says."

 

[HarveyS]

All good suggestions. Is the friend who suffered the stroke of sound mind? If not, changes now can be challenged.
Best advice, I think, would be to have spouse engage a lawyer.

 

[stephenson]

Sure - I would phrase that way if I knew how - or, had been trained as a KTDA.

And, sure - I would learn more about how to phrase if the time was available to do so, and was more important than all the other realities of life. Would be a great idea!

Look - SecondCor521, I appreciate your help, but what you offer is a rabbit hole I can't get fall into right now.

 

[badatmath]

Is there life insurance?

 

[stephenson]

badatmath,

One of my questions to his wife - my sense, based on what he/she told me was they were very happy to have turned 65 so they would be covered by Medicare - this was while he was still working, so it seemed they were paying more for company coverage and happily stopped participating in it.

 

[SecondCor521]

Sure - I would phrase that way if I knew how - or, had been trained as a KTDA.

And, sure - I would learn more about how to phrase if the time was available to do so, and was more important than all the other realities of life. Would be a great idea!

Look - SecondCor521, I appreciate your help, but what you offer is a rabbit hole I can't get fall into right now.

I'm just sharing my opinion. You certainly have no obligations to agree with me or follow it, and I certainly will have no heartburn either way.

I do sincerely wish you and your friends well.

 

[badatmath]

No long term care policy? They do have a medicare supplement and drug plan I hope?

Are you sure the kids are not named as either beneficiaries or POA?

 

[pb4uski]

....But as far as what else, it would probably be smart to check to make sure she is listed as beneficiary on any life insurance policies and all major assets. It's not unheard of for the first spouse to be listed instead, which is usually not what the husband wants.

+1. DWs gold digger cousin got married for the third time after two divorces. It was her new husband's second marriage. He died shortly thereafter. Turns out that he never changed the beneficiary on his life insurance policy and his ex/first wife got the death benefit. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when gold digger realized all that.

 

[stephenson]

badatmath,

No idea re who is beneficiary on anything. She should be, but, as I said, it is sometimes surprising.

And, I would not be surprised if they had only basic Medicare. I would be exceptionally surprised if they had long term care policies.

 

[badatmath]

Is there an accountant?
Who files the taxes?
Is there a mortgage on the farm?
Your questions are focused on the assets so far, but the debts might be equally important.

 

[NeverBored]

It sounds like you are on top of the financial/legal considerations for your friend and his wife. There may be a hundred other things that his wife will need help/advice with.

At first, it's about survival, but most survive the stroke. Then it's about how do you live in a different body with a different brain? Can he drive? Should he drive? Is his speech/hearing/vision affected? How about his reading? Personality? Anger issues are very common; personality changes are almost inevitable. Executive function may be damaged. Social skills often change or disappear. Being able to navigate crowds or noises might become difficult.

You said he was confused and was repeating the same word. That sounds like more than a "mild" stroke. Also, with his physical condition, there is a chance for another, more serious stroke.

My husband had a moderately severe ischemic stroke in 2016. Almost seven years of living with it have taught me some things. NO ONE told me about personality changes to expect. I would try to talk to doctors about odd things, and they would say "oh, he's doing great! I wish all my patients were that good!" Well that doesn't help much when he's screaming at me in the car for driving in the wrong lane. While he can read letters and words, he cannot always understand them and over the years, he has stopped trying. I have to read every piece of mail, check financial transactions, keep track of EVERYTHING because he doesn't know or remember where things are, and keep a calendar for him and for me. DH did all the investing, and we own apartment units. He's a car guy with the GTO he bought as a teenager. I now manage investments, deal with our management company and just bought tires for my own car. I've always been competent financially, but he loved doing it. Me, not so much.

Your friend's wife needs trusted people she can talk to for advice. I found a psychologist who has helped me more than anyone and I still talk to him twice a month. I found a new internist who changed some medication and takes the time to listen to both of us. (Private-pay physician and absolutely worth every penny.)

So yes please help her with legal and financial advice. But she (and he) might need other help too.

(There are online support groups for family and caregivers. They can be so much help.)

Wishing your friends well.

 

[aja8888]

+1. DWs gold digger cousin got married for the third time after two divorces. It was her new husband's second marriage. He died shortly thereafter. Turns out that he never changed the beneficiary on his life insurance policy and his ex/first wife got the death benefit. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when gold digger realized all that.

Usually, after a few divorces, "gold diggers" are up to speed on things like that and get it covered quickly. Seems like the cousin totally missed the boat here! Shame on her!

 

[Sanstar]

I may have missed it but where do his three adult kids fit into any of this?

 

[ivinsfan]

Why would you even want to tangle with this? And what do you expect to come of it?


It's not your job to save everyone. If and when the wife asks you a specific question, answer the question. There are children from another marriage involved which makes it a minefield. High school was a long time ago and people go in different directions. And yet you tell SecondCor you don't want a minefield!


And one more very hard question to ask yourself is this a reaction to your sister dying.You did all you could to help her and it was hard, very hard. I'm not sure you want to enter a do over of such a stressful situation.



If you feel compelled to help tell spouse call me if you have a question or research what state offices might be in line to help her figure things out.

 

[Philliefan33]

Why would you even want to tangle with this? And what do you expect to come of it?


It's not your job to save everyone. If and when the wife asks you a specific question, answer the question. There are children from another marriage involved which makes it a minefield. High school was a long time ago and people go in different directions. And yet you tell SecondCor you don't want a minefield!

+1

MYOB. Visit your friend, let him and his spouse know you are willing to help them and they should ask for specific things they want/need.

I don’t think you should ask the wife about personal financial/legal matters. Maybe you could ask your friend a very generic “This is a scary reminder that anything can happen. Have you got your affairs in order?”

 

[DrRoy]

Maybe others will benefit, as well, from reminders, lists, etc ... here is another partial quick list ...

1. Does he have a Will?
2. Are you named as his Durable Power of Attorney?
3. Are you named as his Medical Power of Attorney?
4. Do you have a Trust? (they have farm property, cattle, equipment, etc)
5. Are you on all the car/truck/equipment titles?
6. Are you on the easement to the property agreement?
7. Are you on all the financial accounts as co owner?
8. Are you named as beneficiary on any all IRA/401K accounts?
9. Are you named as beneficiary on non-IRA/401K accounts - are they POD/TOD?
10. Do you have user name and passwords for ALL financial accounts?
11. Do you have on-line access for ALL financial accounts?
12. Do you have a copy of your marriage certificate?
13. Do you have his Medicare card, his Social Security card, his drivers license, etc?

14. Have you legally funded the trust by titling or placing ownership of the assets within the trust?

Our lawyer said he knew countless examples of people who had a trust created, but never put their assets into it. It's not automatic.

 

[stephenson]

Hmmm ... friend and husband wife have been and are still close friends - maybe this wasn't clear. We see them quite often. She is very rural and not very good at thinking of questions to ask - he had always handled everything. His kids are a mixed bag, with their own lives, but none are concerned about her, and not much about him - my opinion, of course. I was pretty aware of how she was treated during the settlement of the father's estate - and, am concerned.

Reaction to my sister's death - not so much a reaction, as the lessons learned - and, how they might benefit my friends.

In my world of close friends we are aware of boundaries, but almost always try to help - this violates MYOB, but is usually appreciated and understood well-intentioned.