How do you feel now? (4 Months later)

Your thesis is that growth stocks will grow relative to the total market. You also observe that they seem overpriced. Of course. That is almost the definition of a growth stock.

Just for grins, I ran Portfoliovisualizer with a 100% Vanguard Growth Fund (VWUSX) portfolio and a 100% VG Total US Market portfolio (VTSAX). Over 20 years the total market fund crisply outperformed the growth fund, also with less volatility. Different funds and different time periods will produce different results, of course, but it would seem that your heavy exposure to growth may be unnecessary, maybe even unwise.

Jeremy Siegel's "Stocks for the Long Run" is a pretty good read. In it he talks about "the growth trap." I have only the original edition and the book has been revised several times, but I assume the message is substantially the same.

Thanks for the book suggestion. I've been running Firecalc, and there's basically no scenario where any portion fixed income investments shows a good idea, since I'm not 55 yet and I'm running scenarios for 40 years. But, there are many different types of stocks, many aren't "growth" oriented.
 
Thanks for the book suggestion. I've been running Firecalc, and there's basically no scenario where any portion fixed income investments shows a good idea, since I'm not 55 yet and I'm running scenarios for 40 years. But, there are many different types of stocks, many aren't "growth" oriented.
You might also enjoy reading one of these:



The punch line on stocks over the long haul is to own what Eugene Fama refers to as "the market portfolio." Everything. This video is a bit long at 37 minutes but it's a great way to get Fama's thinking. I've viewed it repeatedly and get something new every time. https://www.top1000funds.com/2015/12/investors-from-the-moon-fama/
 
Stayed at 50/50 allocation, many folks underestimate their emotional reactions when the market takes a dive and I think 50/50 helps me avoid that (especially with 4 years left to go until retirement).



I know investment time periods can always be construed to fit an investment advisor's narrative but Blackrock makes an interesting point here:



https://www.blackrock.com/us/indivi...r-education/win-more-by-losing-less-va-us.pdf

Retired this June and 4 - 5 years ago I was 100% equities. If I were to do it all over again I'd be 150% equities if it were possible.
 
Retired this June and 4 - 5 years ago I was 100% equities. If I were to do it all over again I'd be 150% equities if it were possible.


You could buy one of those 3X leverage funds from ProShares.
 
The punch line on stocks over the long haul is to own what Eugene Fama refers to as "the market portfolio." Everything. This video is a bit long at 37 minutes but it's a great way to get Fama's thinking. I've viewed it repeatedly and get something new every time. https://www.top1000funds.com/2015/12/investors-from-the-moon-fama/

+1 This really hit home. Watched the entire thing. Fascinating.

At 35.45

"What chance do people in this room have of choosing a good manager?"

"You haven't got a hope of doing it."
 
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Bottom line: Don't try.
It is extremely un-intuitive, thus extremely difficult, to believe that prices are very close to being totally random. But once you get over that high hurdle, it is easy to understand why there is no discernible manager skill, only luck.

In Misbehaving, Richard Thaler tells a story about a consulting gig where he and a couple of grad students were brought in to look at the trader bonus system at a big Wall Street firm. The study conclusion was that the traders were simply being paid for being lucky. The client totally ignored it.
 
I interviewed a bunch of managers. The smartest one leveled with me; he said, if you could make $50k a year somehow, you’d be fine, but you need that to make your portfolio work. Since that was equivalent to what I’d have to pay him, I decided to not hire him, or any other financial manager. And it’s worked out fine.

I did panic a little and sold $100k of investments back in early March, but whatever, that’s only 2% of what I have in the market. We are back to where we were financially last October and have a lot of upside to go.
 
... it is easy to understand why there is no discernible manager skill, only luck.... The study conclusion was that the traders were simply being paid for being lucky.


It is really remarkable how, in just about every other field besides investing imaginable, skill, education, accomplishment and hard work are required at the elite levels. But in investing, picking index funds and then leaving them the heck alone for decades, with the possible exception of rebalancing, is a proven and repeatable method for an average person to absolutely crush the pros over the long run. Of course, the Dalios of the world leverage other people’s money and take huge fees, so I’m not talking about that kind of investing, but even at their levels, it’s possible they succeeded only because SOMEONE has to reside in the tails of a random distribution and they were the lucky ones to find themselves there.
 
Go to any casino in the world and you'll see thousands of active managers. Two of my DB play the market as though they were at a casino. Both love to gamble and frequent casinos. I'd say they've been lucky for the most part, but they rarely talk about it. And there's always someone whispering in your ear, that table, that slot machine...it's that addictive emotional release. You can insert a specific stock into the term "table" or "slot machine."
 
Yes, agree there is an emotional or hormonal high some people get from trading, and intellectual stimulation. A family friend died yesterday at 80+ y.o. and I don’t think he’d have known what to do with himself in retirement without studying stocks and day trading. But those are different kinds of returns than financial ones.
 
It is really remarkable how, in just about every other field besides investing imaginable, skill, education, accomplishment and hard work are required at the elite levels. But in investing, picking index funds and then leaving them the heck alone for decades, with the possible exception of rebalancing, is a proven and repeatable method for an average person to absolutely crush the pros over the long run ...
Yes. It certainly seems that way. But try this:

Imagine a flowing trout stream. Ripples, eddies, waves lapping gently on the shore. Relax for a moment and enjoy this thing of beauty. Now suppose that you would like a prediction of the exact state of the stream an hour from now; all the ripples, eddies, and waves. Would you expect to find an expert rippleologist with skill, education, and accomplishments who could give you that information? I don't think so. Why? Because the stream behavior is random. No one can predict the results of a random process.

But is the behavior truly random? Well, we understand the physics of incompressible fluid flows very well, so why can't the rippleologist just calculate the future state? Here's why: To calculate a future state the rippleologist would have to know the sream's current state very exactly -- probably millions of parameter values. The problem is too complex by many orders of magnitude. The stream is effectively random.

As I said a couple of posts ago, if one accepts the almost-unacceptable fact that market's behavior is effectively random, then it is not remarkable at all that no one can predict it. Or turn the coin over: The fact that no one can predict the market's behavior is solid evidence that it is effectively random.

But that's not quite the end of the story. We have to look at the distribution of values in the random process. Fat tails, particularly the left tail, lead to lots of excitement but are not of much interest to a long-term investor. The thing that is of interest is the fact that the distribution is not centered on zero like a classic bell curve. If it were, there would be no sense in investing because prices would never go anywhere. It isn't, though. It drifts to the right (higher prices) at something like 7% +/- per year. That's why long term investing works.

So, ... why does it drift to the right? It drifts because this is not some mathematical game. Underneath all the furor of the market is the fact that we are talking about owning shares in enterprises with employees who are working diligently to make the profits that move the share prices rightwards. Not all the enterprises make profits, of course, and many of them don't even survive. But the net effect of all of them is that 7% rightwards movement.

This is how I have come to understand the apparently-remarkable situation you describe.
 
Yes. It certainly seems that way. But try this:

But is the behavior truly random? Well, we understand the physics of incompressible fluid flows very well, so why can't the rippleologist just calculate the future state? Here's why: To calculate a future state the rippleologist would have to know the sream's current state very exactly -- probably millions of parameter values. The problem is too complex by many orders of magnitude. The stream is effectively random.

Good example but knowing the current state even with 100% precision in the stock market won't get us anywhere. In your example of fluid dynamics, which is essentially a deterministic process, you can predict the future state knowing with precision the initial conditions and all the governing equations.

With the stock market, which I agree is entirely unpredictable and for the most part pure random noise, knowing the initial conditions does not help and there are certainly no equations that govern it.
 
Good example but knowing the current state even with 100% precision in the stock market won't get us anywhere. In your example of fluid dynamics, which is essentially a deterministic process, you can predict the future state knowing with precision the initial conditions and all the governing equations.

With the stock market, which I agree is entirely unpredictable and for the most part pure random noise, knowing the initial conditions does not help and there are certainly no equations that govern it.
Agree completely. My point was slightly different: Even something that is theoretically deterministic can be effectively random as far as how we interact with it. Taleb pounds on this point in "Antifragile." I think he was defending against those who say that the market behavior is the result of a collection of individual decisions which, if known, would make the market knowable.

It's a very fine point, though. The tough one, and it took me a long time, is to finally abandon the idea that the market is predictable if we can just find the right expert(s).
 
I think he was defending against those who say that the market behavior is the result of a collection of individual decisions which, if known, would make the market knowable.

I have to ponder that one for a while. I guess if you did have insight into that collection of individual decisions, you might have something. Certainly the aggregate of these is the market itself.
 
Yes. It certainly seems that way. But try this:

Imagine a flowing trout stream. Ripples, eddies, waves lapping gently on the shore. Relax for a moment and enjoy this thing of beauty. Now suppose that you would like a prediction of the exact state of the stream an hour from now; all the ripples, eddies, and waves. Would you expect to find an expert rippleologist with skill, education, and accomplishments who could give you that information? I don't think so. Why? Because the stream behavior is random. No one can predict the results of a random process.

But is the behavior truly random? Well, we understand the physics of incompressible fluid flows very well, so why can't the rippleologist just calculate the future state? Here's why: To calculate a future state the rippleologist would have to know the sream's current state very exactly -- probably millions of parameter values. The problem is too complex by many orders of magnitude. The stream is effectively random.

As I said a couple of posts ago, if one accepts the almost-unacceptable fact that market's behavior is effectively random, then it is not remarkable at all that no one can predict it. Or turn the coin over: The fact that no one can predict the market's behavior is solid evidence that it is effectively random.

But that's not quite the end of the story. We have to look at the distribution of values in the random process. Fat tails, particularly the left tail, lead to lots of excitement but are not of much interest to a long-term investor. The thing that is of interest is the fact that the distribution is not centered on zero like a classic bell curve. If it were, there would be no sense in investing because prices would never go anywhere. It isn't, though. It drifts to the right (higher prices) at something like 7% +/- per year. That's why long term investing works.

So, ... why does it drift to the right? It drifts because this is not some mathematical game. Underneath all the furor of the market is the fact that we are talking about owning shares in enterprises with employees who are working diligently to make the profits that move the share prices rightwards. Not all the enterprises make profits, of course, and many of them don't even survive. But the net effect of all of them is that 7% rightwards movement.

This is how I have come to understand the apparently-remarkable situation you describe.



Very nice, elegant analogy, Old Shooter, and one I can heartily appreciate as a fly fisherman myself. Thank you. Personally, I trust that the global population and its consumption will keep growing during my life and, one way or another, that growth will be translated into the securities markets long term, of which I own a participatory slice. Your metaphor is far more poetic and, I think, edges into chaos theory and its beautiful, whirling and mysterious fractals. To me, watching and participating in the whole giant, undulating, growing swirl of the global economy is the exciting beauty and power of it, versus the hubris of assuming I can possibly know the true state of such a complex system so well that I can crudely bet on the future of this tiny part or against that tiny part.
 
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