How the top 5% do it?

[NW-Bound]

The report is here, at Yale University: https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/cities-grow-so-do-numbers-homeless.

 

[ejman]

Now, New Zealand takes the infamous top spot, and that is shocking. I have been there, and it was some years ago, but did not see anything bad. It was a nice country.

Just now, I found the explanation. It was because of the way NZ compiled its own statistics. They made themselves look bad compared to other countries.

The US is estimated to have 1 million people living in RV, and many by choice. They do not consider themselves homeless. That would have added another 0.3% to the US number, bringing it closer to the top.

Good point. If each country defines "homeless" differently kind of hard to do meaningful country to country comparisons.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am sure there are some living in a camper under the bridge, but the vast majority of folks I have seen in 24/7/365 campers are living quite well, and always by choice.

Yes. Many of the RV'ers are retirees with nice income. It's a lifestyle of their choice.

Until I studied RV'ing for travel, I did not know there were so many choosing the RV for full-time living.

 

[NW-Bound]

Good point. If each country defines "homeless" differently kind of hard to do meaningful country to country comparisons.

That's always the hard part of compiling any statistics. Without numbers, we are only arm-waving. And then when we have numbers, we have to ask what they mean.

New Zealand counts people who couch-surf at their friends or relatives as homeless. Some other countries may not do the same.

Now, we have to do it fairly and go count only people sleeping in back alleys, on sewer grates, in front of closed stores, under bridges and freeway overpasses.

PS. And then, the couchsurfing as a permanent housing situation brings up another point. Yes, these couchsurfers are not exactly homeless, but their situation is less than desirable. How do we measure the adequacy of housing? So many square feet per person? And then, if your home is small, but it has AC for the summer, should it not get a better rating than a place that gets hot like heck in the summer?

It is never that simple.

PPS. It is quite common for Italian single men and women under 30 to live with their parents because they cannot afford housing. And I doubt that Hong Kong counts as homeless its residents who live in cages the size of a twinbed. Quality of housing is not so easy to define and measure.

So back on income inequality, its effect is not simple to measure either. So, not everyone is a millionaire, but if everyone has a full stomach and a roof above head, that should count for something. Oui?

 

[travelover]

I am sure there are some living in a camper under the bridge, but the vast majority of folks I have seen in 24/7/365 campers are living quite well, and always by choice.

Lots and lots of homeless living in RVs here in PNW. You see them parked in big box parking lots, along side the road in industrial areas or dead end streets. Portland even has a program to take junk RVs for free to keep them from ending up on the streets. https://www.kptv.com/news/city-of-p...cle_beb90ce7-bd12-57d4-8ad6-2412e6b04e4e.html

 

[6miths]

The report is here, at Yale University: https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/cities-grow-so-do-numbers-homeless.

Thanks.

 

[Senator]

Lots and lots of homeless living in RVs here in PNW. You see them parked in big box parking lots, along side the road in industrial areas or dead end streets. Portland even has a program to take junk RVs for free to keep them from ending up on the streets. https://www.kptv.com/news/city-of-p...cle_beb90ce7-bd12-57d4-8ad6-2412e6b04e4e.html

I believe the homeless issue in the USA is more of a drug abuse issue, not an actual homeless issue.

 

[RobLJ]

The topic is of interest, although I confess I'm full of conflicted ideas about it.
1. If Robbie's stat's are correct, I'm surprised to learn that we (DW and I) apparently barely qualify to be 5%ers (I'm assuming the 2.5 million is household net worth rather than individual. If not, then I'm more where I thought I was.)

2. I see where I (apparently) am as an inextricable mix of luck, hard work, and opportunity. It was never my goal, ever to be a 5%er, even a 20%er. My father was a Church of Christ minister who frankly just wanted to keep us fed, send us to college (if we wanted to go), and study the Word. I was supposed to be a missionary doctor, since I was good at math, science, and reading/humanities. I loved literature and economics/poly sci, and was fascinated by Chemistry. My fraternal twin loved animals and wanted to be a vet or a vet tech--he didn't care.

3. Luck--I think many here (I haven't read all the posts) acknowledge at least some degree of luck. I'm sure we have some immigrants, but the most important is to have the right parents, i.e., being born in the US. On Mom's side, I'm 3rd generation (Swede-Finn), so my being here is the luck of having a great-grandfather willing to leave Sweden with almost nothing, but with some connections in Worcester, Mass. Mom "converted" to Church of Christ when she happened to go to a revival in Worcester, of all places, then met my father (from Southern OK) at Harding College in Arkansas. What are the chances of that?

But on that luck thing--my fraternal twin inherited a fatal progressive myclonic disease; he was supposed to die before 18 but because he was one of 50 to test a new European anti-seizure drug, he actually "lived" to his early 40s, although bedridden and unable to move for the last 5 years. It's not my fault, but I think about this all the time, and more so when the topic of "luck" comes up. I realize my experience is quite unusual, but frankly, luck matters a lot. Just ask my twin, if he were alive. (He never envied me, and loved my wife and sons, just wished he had the same opportunity to be "normal".)

So, yea, luck doesn't explain much, but it also explains a lot.

4. Out of the 70 of my high school class, I think I was one of two to go out of state for undergrad, and one of two to get a graduate degree. Ambition--maybe; also had no interest in staying in Western Oklahoma all my life.

I was hired in academia in humanities, in which only about 10% of PhDs did so, and I knew quite a few who didn't get hired who were as well-qualified and as smart or smarter than I. A friend of mine told me to apply (the job description didn't match me, so I wasn't going to apply, but they were a lot more flexible in their needs than what the job description implied.) Luck? Skill? Both? Yep.

5. I hung out with some of the older grad students on the weekends playing softball and met my wife there. Luck? Skill? Chance? Yep.

Best decision of my life, although it wasn't really a decision (she chose me, not the other way around).

6. We invested steadily 10-15% and I avoided most of the 2001 and 2008 crashes (went down about 50-60% of the S&P). I also lagged the S&P on the upside, but stuck to my allocations, other than shifting to way overweight small/mid value in 1998-9 and shifting from 90-10 allocation in 2006 to 60-40 in 2007.

Luck? Skill? I don't know.

7. So without intentions, I apparently find us now, barely, in the 5%. I saw this eventuality in 2015 and semi-retired; DW (5 year younger) was originally supposed to keep working, but I told her to retire instead last year since I was happy working on-line parttime.

Life is a strange journey, full of strange forks in the road. I, with much chances, happened to take largely the right forks, sometimes well-informed and sometimes not. (Why go to Cali for grad school? I don't know.) Yes, I worked hard. And I was white and fairly intelligent. And I had parents who supported my going to college. And I invested steadily. My grandfathers were both intelligent and I dare say they both were willing to work as hard, if not harder (that was definitely true of Oklahoma grandfather), and they were close, maybe smarter than me, but they didn't have the opportunities I had. They did send their son and daughter to college, though.

Sorry for the length and somewhat off-topic nature of the above; I guess I don't have anything to apologize for (probably, but I can't think of it) but I did win the gene lottery. If I didn't acknowledge that, I would betray my twin who didn't win at all, but it wasn't his fault.

Also, I think most on the board are quite smart, hard-working, and goal-focused, so I'm not demeaning your accomplishments or attributing them to just luck; I'm not sure about good-looking, though. That certainly wasn't the key to my "success." I suspect there is an astounding % of INTJs here, at least compared to the general population--maybe that is random or maybe we choose our personalities; that's "too many for me, Tom Sawyer," as Huck tells him at one point.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

There are many working poor in our area who simply can't afford housing. Research shows homelessness is largely linked to rent prices. Some live in RVs here but it is a big issue on where they can park them. Some of the cities are trying to set up designated parking lots for all the RVs.

 

[atmsmshr]

Reading these posts of your experiences is amazing for the backgrounds described and how lives have been lived. Thank you for sharing different perspective that make all of us unique.

By the original premise of monetary wealth measurement, personally have gone from the 0 quartile to cracking the 5% club over the course of my career.

However, that was a byproduct of my life goals at age 35: Solid marriage (failed at the first one when 24 years old but just celebrated 31 years with DW), intellectually challenging job with good pay and benefits by sticking (33 years) with one mega (and little travel), raising morally responsible and independent children, improving my faith, retire early (58 with original goal of 55) and have good health (DW's health is fair). Before 35 thought I wanted a shot at the top and did all of the professional hoop jumps. But during the ladder climb realized it was in conflict with and at the expense of the other goals that were more important to me and shut down that ambition to level out.

In contrast, some of the 1% cited have not achieved these 5 life goals. (Think Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk). I would not trade my life story for a shot at the 1% and risk a (another) failed marriage, estranged children, or stress related early death.

Side note - I'm a male Caucasian 6'2" with good hair. My DW even says handsome - but others might disagree. Personality flaws in abundance. IQ is up for debate. Could have been a contender in this Dilbert world.

 

[JoeWras]

Some blue-collar jobs pay very well, but are looked down upon.
.

This so true, and it is a shame. I was an engineer/project manager for a megacorp. My two best friends both worked as tradesmen. One union, one non-union. Their wives worked and also took time off with the kids when they were small, as did mine. ...

I grew up in a household supported by a blue collar job. My dad was a union plumber. I'm grateful for this!

So, on the subject of "looking down" on the job... There was a whole thread on this site looking down on plumbers and complaining, primarily in the title using the word "hate". Just based on the title, I didn't want to get involved, so I haven't participated.

 

[NW-Bound]

I believe the homeless issue in the USA is more of a drug abuse issue, not an actual homeless issue.

It is clear that a lot of people who sleep in the street are drug addicts or mental patients. I read that the US used to have many asylums for the mentally ills, but they have been shut down.

When people cannot take care of themselves, do we incarcerate them? There is no easy solution.

Hawaii has paid psychiatrists to go talk to mental patients in the streets: https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/08/27/states-only-psychiatric-street-medicine-team-gets-city/.

See this for drug addiction problem among the homeless: https://www.city-journal.org/opiods-homelessness-west-coast.

There are many working poor in our area who simply can't afford housing. Research shows homelessness is largely linked to rent prices. Some live in RVs here but it is a big issue on where they can park them. Some of the cities are trying to set up designated parking lots for all the RVs.

Yes, there are people who work for a living, but do not make enough to pay rent. They are not drug addicts or mentally disabled.

Why do people flock to a place? I know it is so because it has some desirable attributes, but when it becomes crowded and expensive, at what point does the negativity offset the pluses?

The US is a big place. There are other cities with jobs, and housing not as ridiculously priced. How do we get people to spread out? It should be noted that the West coast leads the nation in having more homeless people. The drug addicts and mentally disabled concentrate where it is easy to get drug and to panhandle, but the able bodied should go where their quality of life will be better.

 

[pj.mask]

...
We all have / had the same opportunity, being born in the greatest country in history. What we all CHOOSE to do with that opportunity is up to US, and "luck" has ZIP to do with the outcome.

I’m glad you agree zip code has a lot to do with your projected outcome. Personally, I chose to be born in a good zip code.

 

[pj.mask]

...
So, yea, luck doesn't explain much, but it also explains a lot.
...
Sorry for the length and somewhat off-topic nature of the above; I guess I don't have anything to apologize for (probably, but I can't think of it) but I did win the gene lottery. If I didn't acknowledge that, I would betray my twin who didn't win at all, but it wasn't his fault.
...

I think this is what many of us think.

Nobody is saying the people who succeeded didn’t work hard for their success or shouldn’t be proud of what they accomplished.

But to say luck played no part in their success and others could have simply put in the hard work, but didn’t...

Could your brother have just put in hard work?
Could that schizophrenic homeless guy?
Could that kid with dyslexia and ADHD?
Could that kid with PTSD?
The one with social anxiety?

Some can and some can’t. I agree with most everyone here in saying ‘I wish they could overcome their issues and become a successful/productive member of society’ but I fall out of agreement when it gets to ‘they are capable of doing so but were just lazy’

 

[LOL!]

I grew up in a household supported by a blue collar job. My dad was a union plumber. I'm grateful for this!

So, on the subject of "looking down" on the job... There was a whole thread on this site looking down on plumbers and complaining, primarily in the title using the word "hate". Just based on the title, I didn't want to get involved, so I haven't participated.

That thread did not look down on competent plumbers.

 

[JoeWras]

That thread did not look down on competent plumbers.

Probably should have used a different title then.

 

[NW-Bound]

Some can and some can’t. I agree with most everyone here in saying ‘I wish they could overcome their issues and become a successful/productive member of society’ but I fall out of agreement when it gets to ‘they are capable of doing so but were just lazy’

If we make it too easy, many will claim that they are not capable and will not bother to make the effort. It's just human nature. People who have raised kids know this very well.

I think the question is how much reward should be given to people to try harder, and how much to allow for people who still fail.

 

[Kwirk]

I was very lucky to be born with a capacity for hard work. It's in society's interest to reward me for my work but I'd rather not p*ss off those who were not so born.

 

[24601NoMore]

I’m glad you agree zip code has a lot to do with your projected outcome. Personally, I chose to be born in a good zip code.

You must have missed my earlier post - I was born in a HORRIBLE zip code with murders happening right outside my front door. We moved when the latest murderer threw his gun into our trash can.

Again..ANYONE born into this great country of ours has the SAME opportunity. All the rest is just politics and or/whining.

 

[MichaelB]

Why don't y'all let it be and move on. You've both made your points.

 

[Aerides]

- I wasn't born into this country. I suppose I could consider myself lucky that my parents were able to move here when I was young (i certainly had nothing to do with it) I'm sure I'd have done OK where I was, but of course it would be different, and can't know how things would have turned out. Better? Worse? Different

- I was lucky to have an above the line IQ. Can't fix that with hard work. Sure, those will lower basic intelligence can do well, but life must be easier when you start on the right hand side of the bell curve

- I made some stupid decisions early on. I got out of them and moved on, but they could have sunk me a good bit if I hadn't had a little good karma on my side. I also had a couple of medical mishaps that could have put me in the grave, but today have no impact on my life - both totally out of my control

- I picked a good company, (literally from an ad in the paper) worked hard and smart and climbed up, took the right opportunities, and got on the right projects at the right time

As with any of these threads, I do wonder why some choose to dig in and not see that a sliver of the other side might be worth considering? It's either "it was me, all ME ME ME" or, "it's all random I got born lucky". Like most things there's probably a bit of everything thrown in there.

Whether it was all me (it wasn't) or not, I do think it's now my responsibility to be kind to those less fortunate, help where it's appropriate, and not pass judgment or assume that someone with less is any less worthy.

 

[pj.mask]

You must have missed my earlier post - I was born in a HORRIBLE zip code with murders happening right outside my front door. We moved when the latest murderer threw his gun into our trash can.

Again..ANYONE born into this great country of ours has the SAME opportunity. All the rest is just politics and or/whining.

You must have missed my earlier posts where the entire topic was: some people can overcome their challenges, others can’t.
Your expectations for others in slightly different situations to have an outcome exactly like yours is unrealistic.

Just because someone was born with the capability to be successful in a situation doesn’t mean that others have the ability to succeed in that situation.

That is why your zip code predicts your outcome with a pretty high correlation. Glad your parents were able to move you out of that bad neighborhood - unfortunately many kids in that neighborhood weren’t as *LUCKY* (unless you’re implying that the kids can somehow control where their parents raise them).

Again, congrats on beating statistics but it is kind of silly to say as a whole society should focus on one off special cases.

 

[24601NoMore]

You must have missed my earlier posts where the entire topic was: some people can overcome their challenges, others can’t.
Your expectations for others in slightly different situations to have an outcome exactly like yours is unrealistic.

Just because someone was born with the capability to be successful in a situation doesn’t mean that others have the ability to succeed in that situation.

That is why your zip code predicts your outcome with a pretty high correlation. Glad your parents were able to move you out of that bad neighborhood - unfortunately many kids in that neighborhood weren’t as *LUCKY* (unless you’re implying that the kids can somehow control where their parents raise them).

Again, congrats on beating statistics but it is kind of silly to say as a whole society should focus on one off special cases.

Since Michael politely suggested "moving on", I'm going to bow out and do exactly that. You guys know my perspective (basically, that there is no scenario that cannot be overcome, barring actual, severe mental or physical limitations like kids with Fragile-X, leukemia, etc might have - and that all the talk about "luck" and "privilege" is basically politicians pitting us against each other for their own gain).

Regarding OP's original topic - in my experience, getting into the "upper 5%" (whatever that means) can be done by determining what the free market system wants, working to develop the skills to provide that, and working your tail off to do so. And LBYM. That's how the "5%" do it. But then again, I'm not big on dividing people into groups - 5% vs 95%, etc. and believe we all have the same basic opportunity, regardless of our lot in life - unless we're born with some horribly debilitating limitation which unfortunately many are, including some in my own family. For example - I have a wonderful nephew with Fragile-X. Safe to say he's going to need lifetime care and will most likely never hold down a "normal" job. Those are the outliers. But for the bulk of us..the way to FI (5%, 10%, whatever if anyone insists on bucketizing and categorizing people) is not that complicated IMHO. Develop a skill (that's in demand). Work your tail off. Save everything you can, and then some.

 

[aja8888]

I was very lucky to be born with a capacity for hard work.

The above rang a bell inside me.

Rather than waste time detailing how I got here (and we are not in the 5%), let me say that 95% of everything along the way in my life went wrong, was the wrong decision, or was a poor choice, except for the capacity to work hard, keep my head down and keep thinning the cabbage.

 

[saydiver]

The US is estimated to have 1 million people living in RV, and many by choice. They do not consider themselves homeless. That would have added another 0.3% to the US number, bringing it closer to the top.

Most of these RVers have a legal address, although they don't actually live at the address. I know because we were full-time RVers for almost eight years.

Living in a RV is a great way to see the country and still sleep in your own bed at night and many days we had million dollar views. My RV had all the amenities of a house, except lots of square footage.

When you live in a RV even by choice, you're correct that people consider you homeless. I had more than one person tell me they felt sorry for me, yet my RV was worth more than their house.