Irresponsible Son-In-Law With No Health Insurance

[ceciledian]

Very good advice in all of the above posts. Just a note about the medical-caused bankruptcies. It turns out that only 4% of bankruptcies are true medical bankruptcies. The other 96% of bankruptcies have medical bills that are included in the bankruptcy but are not the primary cause. What medical problems can cause is loss of income due to inability to work. The loss of income then causes an inability to pay any bill, including medical bills. A better solution to the "bankruptcy" problem might be mandatory disability insurance.

By your own definition it’s still a medical-caused bankruptcy. If you are unable to work or lost your job /cannot pay bills due to a health issue that’s a medical bankruptcy. Of course there will be other non-medical bills if you cannot work. Personal issue to me as my cousin’s son lost his job, his health insurance, and eventually his life after he was diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer.

 

[Texas Proud]

Tell them to set up an emergency fund!?
These are people who won't open their mail for 6 weeks because the bill collectors letters upset them.
Their idea of an emergency fund is $5 tacked to the wall to tip the pizza delivery guy.

And there is the answer in the form of a question... if you will not help yourself why should I help you?

 

[NYEXPAT]

Well, since you are going to insure them anyway, why don't you work out an affordable monthly premium for him to pay you?

 

[brett]

MYOB.

You cannot live someone’s life for them. You have voiced your opinion. Leave it at that.

 

[gretah]

I can't imagine not coughing up if one of them were to get sick without health insurance... though in retrospect I guess it would be best to let them go bankrupt and then help them out post bankruptcy.

I agree.

I also would not help them buy a house. With or without your help, they will get into a mortgage they can't afford thanks to the bankers and real estate agents only caring about their commissions and fees. They will depend on both salaries to be able to make the payments.

What happens when guy gets sick and can't work? If he doesn't have health insurance, he probably doesn't have disability or term life insurance either.

Perhaps you might pay for them to go to Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University? Let Ramsey be the bearer of bad news and let their peers educate them. I don't agree with Ramsey's investment advice but no one is better at "get out of debt, stay out of debt, and be a responsible parent and spouse."

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

MYOB.

You cannot live someone’s life for them. You have voiced your opinion. Leave it at that.

+1. You beat me too it.

OP, I was going to say (which is as gentle as I can put it):

Did anyone ASK you for your help or opinion? If not, stay out of it. As painful as that is given your daughter and grand kids.

I used to try to give my nieces and nephews financial advice. You know, from their pretty well to do Uncle who was an Econ major, has tons of investments, worked on Wall Street, etc. I've given up on that as they really didn't want to hear it. So, I've given up on that.

I will eventually face the same situation with my child (now 16), but it is difficult - because we are so close. It is better to get cold hard facts from a stranger than someone close to you. Maybe it is like learning to drive - best taught from a stranger.

 

[Pellice]

Offer to pay his monthly premium, or ever their whole family? That would be cheaper.

Exactly my thought. Make up the difference for the son-in-law in your daughter's premium, and take it out of whatever funds you were thinking of for helping them with their down payment. And let them know this is what you are doing. One accident and their family could be ruined - and it sounds as though it would be very hard for you to stand by.

If that is the case, and you were already planning to set aside some money for them, well, they can wait a bit longer for the house. Besides, if they can't afford health insurance for the whole family, they cannot afford a house, IMHO.

This would clear your anxiety and you'd still be helping them.

 

[Chuckanut]

Exactly my thought. Make up the difference for the son-in-law in your daughter's premium, and take it out of whatever funds you were thinking of for helping them with their down payment. And let them know this is what you are doing. One accident and their family could be ruined - and it sounds as though it would be very hard for you to stand by.

If that is the case, and you were already planning to set aside some money for them, well, they can wait a bit longer for the house. Besides, if they can't afford health insurance for the whole family, they cannot afford a house, IMHO.

This would clear your anxiety and you'd still be helping them.

Using the 'sleep well at night' criteria, I suspect this is the best choice.

Note: I am referring to your sleep, not the son-in-law.

 

[samcat]

Our son in law had a high tech and large car repair business. He lived like a king, with numerous new cars, big house with pool and two drag cars. Grandkids had every dream toy like ATV's and 4x4 trucks. He was a tax fraud--not reporting 10% of his income so he could get Food Stamps. And his family was uninsured.

When the SIL got sick, he self medicated on illegal substances. We figure he spent $200K+ cash on drugs prior to visiting a doctor who told him he had multiple myeloma--cancer of the red drug cells. Somehow he got on his wife's job health insurance and hit them up for a bone marrow transplant. Unfortunately, it was too late. He died of amyloidosis at age 50.

My point is that those without healthcare insurance do not take very good care of themselves, and they're much more apt to have cancers and other diseases that they cannot diagnosis themselves. And self medication does not work. They are also often without life insurance, disability insurance and other methods of taking care of their family in case something happens to them. That's very irresponsible.

This is off topic but my friend has cardiac amyloidosis. Had a stem cell transplant 6.5 years ago and is better than ever. It was a horrible experience as he had two young kids at the time and he and his wife had to be gone from them for seven weeks to the Mayo Clinic for the transplant.

 

[zippy2020]

Speaking as someone who DID file for bankruptcy at the ripe old age of 42, I can assure you it is most certainly not the worst thing in the world to happen. And you absolutely should not be bailing out your daughter!

Bankruptcy is merely a restructuring of indebtedness. Society has changed; nobody is going to pointing fingers and sniggering at them behind their backs (or to their faces).

Bad things happen to good people sometimes, no matter what. People realize this, nowadays.

If your daughter and her spouse do not talk about important matters, that is their mistake, not yours; nor is it your responsibility to pick up the mess they may make.

It is not like your grandchildren are going to suddenly be going without dinner. Bankruptcy doesn't work like that.

If your SIL doesn't have health insurance and is hospitalized, they should negotiate with the hospital for a payment plan. It is not uncommon to negotiate a lower amount due, payable over a period of years.

Yes, retirement assets are protected (no specified legal amount, but the IRS has been part of court judgments that set $1M as the unofficial cut-off point) but it doesn't sound like your daughter and SIL have more than that stashed away regardless.

Save your money for your own retirement. You may well be offering your daughter help in finding a good divorce lawyer somewhere down the line, LOL - a much better use of funds.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

If you have more than enough for your own retirement and plan on leaving money to your daughter anyway, why not use it for health insurance now for the SIL and you can put the money to good use by using it to sleep better at night.

 

[oscar1]

1st thought, like many above, is you have to let them learn at their expense. We all did. Next thought is along these lines. These kids grew up with helicopter parents due to child abductors (Enter car pool lanes), terrorism threats, school shootings, video games, etc. We defaulted to protectionism and overshot it in my opinion. So, their risky world is hard for us to comprehend hence we think it is our responsibility to jump on them every time our standard is not met. Now that the individual mandate is gone, you can find catastrophic policies again. Have the SIL price out one of those to mitigate the risk of family financial ruin due to healthcare issues. I am not a fan of paying insurance companies thousands of dollars in premium followed by thousands of dollars of deductibles before they pay a dime. But maybe a catastrophic policy will help for now. Or encourage him to set up an HSA account that will have some tax advantages should they have to pay out of pocket which they will. One thing I did not understand is if the DD and kids are on her policy, that usually means family coverage so the incremental cost of adding SIL should be peanuts. Something not right there.

 

[mystang52]

I got to beginning of page 3 of replies but I have to leave so excuse if this was suggested: why not speak to DD and offer to pay the extra cost to add SIL to her policy, but only for a limited (maybe 1 or 2 years)?

 

[indiajust]

I can see why a cheap term life insurance policy would be necessary in the event of death. But health insurance is more of political scam than payment system these days. Medical services cost 2X-10X more with insurance so you can be better off going bare. I got ACL surgery quoted at 60% off just for openers, before haggling. Obamacare drove millions of healthy folks, like me, away from the insurance market entirely. I like using direct primary care to cover preventive maintenance.

 

[skipro33]

If you can't convince your daughter that her children's futures are at risk with their father unprotected from catastrophic debt, then she's as much the problem as he is. If me, I'd put my grand children's well being first and do what I thought was necessary to protect them. Probably some sort of trust fund to cover their expenses that is protected from their parents and their irresponsible actions. Then I would drop the whole matter so I wouldn't risk even having a relationship with the grand kids. After all, you piss them off enough and mom or dad can call that shot on you.
And I'd drop the crazy-talk about helping fund a house.

 

[brett]

Really, what will be next after paying their medical insurance costs? Subsidizing their mortgage, making car payments for them?

I have no doubt that you daughter understands the risks. Let her deal with this situation. It is not your business so why interfere?

Don’t be an enabler. Let them live their own lives and be responsible for their own decisions. The decisions they make on how to spend their money is theirs alone to make.

 

[brett]

Duplicate

 

[travelover]

.......... Medical services cost 2X-10X more with insurance so you can be better off going bare. .....

Brilliant. Talk to a cancer survivor about costs.

 

[2229]

Your Son-in-law and wife seem better suited to be RENTERS unless/until they get farther down the road with basic financial blocking and tackling. Personally, I'd invest in their financial education before any talk of helping with a down payment..... If they show no interest in Financial Peace or other program, put all financial help on hold. As for paying for insurance for this nut - Possibly a big fat cheap term life policy to protect daughter.

 

[Sunset]

Speaking as someone who DID file for bankruptcy at the ripe old age of 42, I can assure you it is most certainly not the worst thing in the world to happen. And you absolutely should not be bailing out your daughter!

Bankruptcy is merely a restructuring of indebtedness. Society has changed; nobody is going to pointing fingers and sniggering at them behind their backs (or to their faces).

Bad things happen to good people sometimes, no matter what. People realize this, nowadays.

If your daughter and her spouse do not talk about important matters, that is their mistake, not yours; nor is it your responsibility to pick up the mess they may make.

It is not like your grandchildren are going to suddenly be going without dinner. Bankruptcy doesn't work like that.

If your SIL doesn't have health insurance and is hospitalized, they should negotiate with the hospital for a payment plan. It is not uncommon to negotiate a lower amount due, payable over a period of years.

Yes, retirement assets are protected (no specified legal amount, but the IRS has been part of court judgments that set $1M as the unofficial cut-off point) but it doesn't sound like your daughter and SIL have more than that stashed away regardless.

Save your money for your own retirement. You may well be offering your daughter help in finding a good divorce lawyer somewhere down the line, LOL - a much better use of funds.

Thanks for your input, it takes a little bit of guts to put it out there, and you make the conversation much more interesting to hear from that perspective of bankruptcy.

 

[VungTau]

I watched my parents bail out my lil sister for decades! She never learned the lesson and they just kept coming to the rescue. My parents felt exactly like you do - they couldn't let her go without insurance so they paid her premiums. They paid for her deductible, etc. To this day she still relies on them, she never learned and why should she? Dad and mom always galloped in to save her... It doesn't work.

 

[Calico]

Brilliant. Talk to a cancer survivor about costs.

+1000

 

[Sunset]

I watched my parents bail out my lil sister for decades! She never learned the lesson and they just kept coming to the rescue. My parents felt exactly like you do - they couldn't let her go without insurance so they paid her premiums. They paid for her deductible, etc. To this day she still relies on them, she never learned and why should she? Dad and mom always galloped in to save her... It doesn't work.

Same with my cousin, parents took over his mortgage, bought him 2 cars, bought him a chip truck business, gave him money, it just went on and on and on.

Finally it stopped. ... when they died. Except for the TRUST fund his daddy has set up.

 

[brett]

A good friend of ours who retired early for medical reasons has now essentially run out of any spare funds over and above basic living costs.

It was not supposed to be this way. She had a nest egg.

How did this happen? Simple..by bailing out her ner do well, lazy son time and time again. By trying to live his life for him according to her standards and beliefs . She put up with the lies, even the theft.

She really did not help him. She was an enabler. Every handout and bailout made it worse. And now she is broke. Not a word of thanks because the bank of mum is bust.

Bankruptcy can be an excellent wake up call for some people. And for some. Nothing short of that will work.

Keep your hands in your pockets and your check book closed!

 

[Kroeran]

The challenge here is how to solve the puzzle of maintaining family harmony where we have a promise of the house down payment help, the risk of medical bankruptcy, the risk of divorce.

My dad liked down payment LOANS to family due to the reality that a mortgage is a hungry beast that forces the young to save and is an investment in an appreciating tax sheltered asset.

A stable couple with strong cash flow is decent raw material to work with.

We just have this small wrinkle that the SIL is an idiot with risk.

It’s like when my neice with very strong cash flow and an appetite for exotic travel floats trip ideas to dangerous countries, I remind her that she puts the entire clan at financial risk, and I dead cold tell her we are not bailing her out of a kidnapping situation, which she is totally capable of getting herself into.

When my computer rental side hustle that dad financed went tits up and I was otherwise showing signs of maturity, dad wrote off the loan, BUT, on condition that I maxed out my RRSP (Canadian version of IRA?), for the remaining years of my life. I was like 28 at the time. I thought that was a great deal and honoured it. The concept here is coupled assistance. This on condition of that.

Presuming the down payment promise was made with different facts in the ground, the change in facts opens up a discussion about the down payment promise, alone with the daughter.

The question is how to support this healthy dream and mitigate the risk of bankruptcy or divorce, all of which may take place with mom as a vulnerable widow dealing with the drama if you do not wake up one morning.

All interactions with them should be loving in tone and not angry or judgemental.

The general direction I am thinking is backing a house under an LLC or Trust that is insulated from his medical bankruptcy or divorce. Blame your lawyer or accountant for the idea.

Make medical and life insurance a condition of the scheme? Or maybe have him put his savings in bankruptcy proof instruments and she owns the house?

Ensure that the money you put into it is protected from calamity and that her money is protected from his bankruptcy or divorce.

Another direction to go is to pay his health insurance but tell them it is an advance inheritance that will be deducted from their share.

Then there is the story of Buffett’s adult daughter asking Warren for a LOAN to renovate her kitchen. He said no.