Is the Automobile Bubble Bursting?

[brett]

We made the decision not to buy in a sellers market.

Put new tires on our 2006 Accord. It only has 145K miles and still runs like a new car. We will probably keep it for another four year.

We drive the 2007 Solara ragtop in the summer. Only 70K miles on it so we will use it for longer trips.

 

[REWahoo]

Even when they claim to be selling at MSRP or below, there are new tricks being added. The dealer where we bought our VW last year has changed hands and has now imposed a $949 documentation fee instead of $350!

I'm sure that every dealer in town will be adding that to their prices within weeks. Easier to simply stay away than to negotiate based on that sort of legalized thievery.

I was hoping the FTC would pull the trigger on stopping this back in the fall of last year but it doesn't appear that it has. Long overdue IMO.

FTC issues advance notice of proposed rulemaking on “junk fees”

 

[Chuckanut]

Even when they claim to be selling at MSRP or below, there are new tricks being added. The dealer where we bought our VW last year has changed hands and has now imposed a $949 documentation fee instead of $350!

I'm sure that every dealer in town will be adding that to their prices within weeks. Easier to simply stay away than to negotiate based on that sort of legalized thievery.

I shop for the best out-the-door cost on an equivalent vehicle.

How they juggle the prices for this and that is not my concern.

 

[Car-Guy]

how easy is access in and out? I have visions of this: Getting out of a sports car

That's not funny at all!




Actually I laughed my a%% off. Change the car and the guy and it could have been me in that video.

 

[pb4uski]

This is what one local dealer does. "We never sell above MSRP." But they don't talk about their documentation fee.

Meanwhile, the sheeple are happy to pay $700 to $900 for a few standard forms and pieces of paper and a salesperson pressing a few keys.

Yeah, I hear you. I only negotiate to an out-the-door cash price.

I was negotiating for one car purchase and told the salesman that I wasn't willing to pay their $350 doc fee because it was just for them processing the paperwork which is a cost of doing buisness and it is now done by computer anyway. At first he said that it was required by law and I told him emphatically that it wasn't. Then he said that he couldn't do anything about it because it was preprinted on their forms and I responded that I saw that it was preprinted on their form, but if they would reduce the price by $350 to offset it then we had a deal, otherwise I was walking out the door.

They decided to give me an additional $350 discount. Surprised?

 

[JoeWras]

Yeah, I hear you. I only negotiate to an out-the-door cash price.

I was negotiating for one car purchase and told the salesman that I wasn't willing to pay their $350 doc fee because it was just for them processing the paperwork which is a cost of doing buisness and it is now done by computer anyway. At first he said that it was required by law and I told him emphatically that it wasn't. Then he said that he couldn't do anything about it because it was preprinted on their forms and I responded that I saw that it was preprinted on their form, but if they would reduce the price by $350 to offset it then we had a deal, otherwise I was walking out the door.

They decided to give me an additional $350 discount. Surprised?

My exact experience too. The old preprinted trick.

I negotiate this with front of house sales, not the back of house finance. Not sure which is best. Feels like finance is too late, but it isn't too late for them to try to sell you more crap.

 

[aja8888]

Yeah, I hear you. I only negotiate to an out-the-door cash price.

I was negotiating for one car purchase and told the salesman that I wasn't willing to pay their $350 doc fee because it was just for them processing the paperwork which is a cost of doing buisness and it is now done by computer anyway. At first he said that it was required by law and I told him emphatically that it wasn't. Then he said that he couldn't do anything about it because it was preprinted on their forms and I responded that I saw that it was preprinted on their form, but if they would reduce the price by $350 to offset it then we had a deal, otherwise I was walking out the door.

They decided to give me an additional $350 discount. Surprised?

I'm pretty sure the Doc fee is set by law in Texas at $199 max. I know dealers in Florida charge around $900. That's crazy.

 

[REWahoo]

I'm pretty sure the Doc fee is set by law in Texas at $199 max. I know dealers in Florida charge around $900. That's crazy.

This link shows the average doc fee, title fee, and registration fee by state:

Car Dealer Doc Fee by State 2023

The maximum doc fee in TX is $150, which is exactly what I was charged on the two cars I purchased in 2022. Florida has no maximum and dealers there are having a field day, charging an average of $995.

 

[explanade]

I don't like Teslas but they have the right idea trying to get around dealers.

 

[Christine]

And they (Tesla) have just lowered the prices of their cars with upto 20% reasoning that costs have come down again after the pandemic inflation and after opening two more factories.


So with their prices more or less back to what they were before the pandemic inflation I wonder what effect they can have on the car market? They don't make that many cars - just over 1.3 million last year - but they have more than 60% of the EV market in the US.

 

[Venturer]

I'm 6'-4". I thought I wanted a Corvette back in the 1990's. I went to test drive a used one. The test drive went well, until we returned to the car lot. I went to pull my feet out and pivot 90 degrees to the ground. My knees hit the bottom of the dash. The sill under the door was high enough, my feet wouldn't clear it to get them out of the car. I was stuck. I finally had to grab the roof and pull enough of my body out of the car to finally get a leg outside of the door. That ended, once and for all, my desire for a Corvette.

Lol I can relate,I am 6'6" & my DW started talking about getting a Miata like one of her friends had. One day we were coming home from a grocery run and there was a slightly used one sitting front row on a lot with the top down. We turned around and went back to see it. She sat in it and looked it over while I stood there and talked to the salesman. Then I sat in it and was looking nearly over the winshield. I ask the salesman to put up the roof. That is when her Miata dream was crushed. No way we could have one of those when I would have to cut a hole in the roof to see out of.

 

[Masquernom]

Lol I can relate,I am 6'6" & my DW started talking about getting a Miata like one of her friends had. One day we were coming home from a grocery run and there was a slightly used one sitting front row on a lot with the top down. We turned around and went back to see it. She sat in it and looked it over while I stood there and talked to the salesman. Then I sat in it and was looking nearly over the winshield. I ask the salesman to put up the roof. That is when her Miata dream was crushed. No way we could have one of those when I would have to cut a hole in the roof to see out of.

I had the same experience with a Miata. A friend had one. I could drive it with the top down, but put the top up and I had to scrunch down as low as possible and sit with my head sideways.

 

[Fermion]

Lol I can relate,I am 6'6" & my DW started talking about getting a Miata like one of her friends had. One day we were coming home from a grocery run and there was a slightly used one sitting front row on a lot with the top down. We turned around and went back to see it. She sat in it and looked it over while I stood there and talked to the salesman. Then I sat in it and was looking nearly over the winshield. I ask the salesman to put up the roof. That is when her Miata dream was crushed. No way we could have one of those when I would have to cut a hole in the roof to see out of.

Hah, same thing for me at 6'7". Back a number of years and I tried to cram myself into a RX8 and my head was sticking out the top.

Sucks being tall sometimes...other times I snicker when people can't even reach 9 feet up to grab something off the shelf at Home Depot.

 

[REWahoo]

Sucks being tall sometimes...other times I snicker when people can't even reach 9 feet up to grab something off the shelf at Home Depot.

I was expecting you to end that post with this:

 

[CaptTom]

And they (Tesla) have just lowered the prices of their cars with upto 20% reasoning that costs have come down again after the pandemic inflation and after opening two more factories.

So with their prices more or less back to what they were before the pandemic inflation I wonder what effect they can have on the car market?

I'd be a bit more cynical about the real reasons for the price change. But yes, this should have an effect on the supply side of the equation. Lots of other EVs are coming to market, too. I think some of the luster is starting to fade from the Tesla name and there is real competition on the horizon in this part of the market.

Getting back to the original topic, I like any downward pressure on pricing. I'm still hoping my old truck hangs together until things get back to normal.

 

[ERD50]

This link shows the average doc fee, title fee, and registration fee by state:

Car Dealer Doc Fee by State 2023

The maximum doc fee in TX is $150, which is exactly what I was charged on the two cars I purchased in 2022. Florida has no maximum and dealers there are having a field day, charging an average of $995.

IL has a max for the doc fee as well. I remember one slimy salesperson saying something like "And this is the government regulated fee...", as if it was something they had to charge you (like taxes), rather than a maximum.

I don't recall if I challenged him to tell him "The regulation is for the maximum, you don't need to charge a dime for it, any other industry just calls that a cost of doing business". I probably didn't, it would just stretch out the time I would spend at the car dealer, just wanted to get it over with. I hate buying cars (Tesla has the right idea, but I'm not in the market for an expensive EV at this point).

-ERD50

 

[Venturer]

I aggrevate my DW with this Alan Jackson song ' Have a little love on a little honeymoon
You got a little dish and you got a little spoon
A little bitty house and a little bitty yard
A little bitty dog and a little bitty car
Well, it's alright to be little bitty
A little hometown or a big old city
Might as well share, might as well smile
Life goes on for a little bitty while
A little bitty baby in a little bitty gown
It'll grow up in a little bitty town
Big yellow bus and little bitty books
It all started with a little bitty look
Well, it's alright to be little bitty
A little hometown or a big old city
Might as well share, might as well smile
Life goes on for a little bitty while
You know you got a job and a little bitty check
A six pack of beer and a television set
Little bitty world goes around and around
Little bit of silence and a little bit of sound
A good ol' boy and a pretty little girl
Start all over in a little bitty world
Little bitty plan and a little bitty dream
It's all part of a little bitty scheme
It's alright to be little bitty
A little hometown or a big old city
Might as well share, might as well smile
Life goes on for a little bitty while
It's alright to be little bitty
A little hometown or a big old city
Might as well share, might as well smile
Life goes on for a little bitty while

 

[Midpack]

I'd be a bit more cynical about the real reasons for the price change. But yes, this should have an effect on the supply side of the equation. Lots of other EVs are coming to market, too. I think some of the luster is starting to fade from the Tesla name and there is real competition on the horizon in this part of th.

Time will tell, but I doubt the luster is fading from Tesla. The lower prices are partly in response to the idiotic IRA tax credit structure, and because their production capacity is way up with Austin and Berlin ramping up, lowering costs. It will also put a hurt on the legacy automakers trying to enter the EV market, they’ll be forced to charge less, less than their costs in some/many cases. Tesla has a huge head start and they’re playing their hand well.

 

[explanade]

TSLA stock is way down. They're under pressure after the last quarterly report didn't meet expectations.

 

[Christine]

TSLA stock is way down. They're under pressure after the last quarterly report didn't meet expectations.

Yes I believe they have lost their customers:

/s

 

[NW-Bound]

The sales number of BYD is better than that of Tesla.

 

[NW-Bound]

The loss of sales for incumbent ICE car makers is not caused by people no longer wanting ICE cars. Rather, much of it is caused by shortage of semiconductor chips.

Last year, Toyota had to give only one keyfob for each car, with a raincheck for the 2nd one. On the Web, a Toyota buyer said this happened to him as late as Nov 2022. He said they did not know when they would have it to give to him.

See: https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/new-2023-highlander-only-one-keyfob-with-delivery.1729172/


A Bloomberg article said that Toyota expected to make 10.6 million cars in 2023, vs. 9.05 in 2019 prior to COVID.

See: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-sees-vehicle-output-recovery-092652595.html

 

[Christine]

I know many people ditch their old ICE vehicle to buy electric. So there must be some loss.

I also believe many people will keep their old ICE vehicle a little longer than usual while getting used to the idea of getting an EV. Learning about the pros and cons. ICE sales would therefore go down for a period. I think we are getting there now.

So if many bought a second car to travel safe during the pandemic they may now keep the newest and sell their oldest. And then drive that one for a few years. Until they eventually trade it in for an EV.


This would cause sales of both new and used cars to slump.

The sales number of BYD is better than that of Tesla.

It is fantastic that BYD is selling loads of electric vehicles!

But it's not so good that half of those are hybrids and not EVs. Hybrids have two motors and a battery so they get less miles/gallon. They are basically a scam in my opinion - getting EV discounts while continuing to pollute.

I sincerely hope that all the traditional car makers survive the transition to sustainable energy. Because Tesla cannot make enough cars fast enough. We need old and new car makers to survive to manage this.

 

[JoeWras]

I like talking EVs. We had a thread and it got too hot and is temporarily closed.

Let's make sure to focus on the overall prices, not EVs. The topic of this thread is overall auto pricing action.

This thread is drifting hard into EV talk... Just be careful, I realize Tesla's huge price drop is part of the equation, so it is understandable some EV talk comes into to play, just use caution.

 

[misanman]

Yes, I think it's a shame the EV thread is closed. This weekend I was involved in the installation of a home EV charger and I would have posted what I think are some interesting aspects of that but, alas, the thread is closed.