Make a Power Move?

[travelover]

The situation with California electric grid will take years to remedy. In the mean time, what's a resident to do?

People think of a whole-house generator, but that is a fuel guzzler which may burn a gallon per hour. How do you store fuel for several days of use? It may work if you have metered nat gas at the home, and if the gas supply stays on during the electric outage.

I would forgo AC and heating, and try to keep just the refrigerator going and some lighting. An inverter generator that changes its speed to match the load will conserve fuel, and would be my first choice.

For a long-term solution, a solar panel array coupled with battery storage would keep the above necessities going without having to fire up the generator. The battery storage would also be nice to allow shutting off the generator at night, and not having to run it 24/7.

Tesla Powerwall is the most well-known home storage solution, but there are other makers of similar products. In another thread, Alan told us about an affordable Chinese product that was offered in the UK. I expect this market to ramp up in the years ahead.

Agree and I posted a recommendation for a small inverter generator back in post #26. In eco mode they really sip gasoline and can be had for $500-ish if you forgo Honda / Yamaha premium brands. The Harbor Freight inverter generators are actually supposed to be pretty good.

 

[NW-Bound]

The Chinese brand of battery storage that Alan talked about using in the UK is Pylontech. I had not known about this brand, but immediately researched it due to my interest in this area.

I found that Victron Energy of the Netherlands has partnered with Pylontech. So, this company has already been vetted by a premier inverter maker for the RV and marine applications. And I have seen a few other US companies working with Pylontech to provide a complete turnkey solution.

The lithium battery used by Pylontech is of the lithium-iron-phosphate chemistry (lithium ferrophosphate or LFP), which is the most stable and safest of all lithium batteries. When abused, punctured, overcharged, it does not explode in flames like the more common lithium batteries. It also has the longest life, usually of 2000 cycles of 80% to 100% depth of discharge, and still retaining 80% of capacity.

LFP is the type nearly universally used for energy storage, but not for EVs because the battery is heavier than the usual type. On the other hand, I believe Tesla Powerwalls use the same cells or chemistry as used in Tesla cars.

On eBay, I saw a few sellers offering Pylontech products, but shipped from the UK. Here's an opportunity for fast-moving entrepreneurs to import directly to sell into the California market.

PS. LFP is the lithium chemistry approved for aviation use.

 

[NW-Bound]

Agree and I posted a recommendation for a small inverter generator back in post #26. In eco mode they really sip gasoline and can be had for $500-ish if you forgo Honda / Yamaha premium brands. The Harbor Freight inverter generators are actually supposed to be pretty good.

Inverter generators save fuel, but only when they are presented with a light load. Users have reported that under a load of 1/2 or more, they consume the same amount of fuel as the common constant-speed type.

If one has battery storage, he can run a regular generator for a few hours each day to charge the battery. My DIY battery bank of 22kWh would require as long as 12 hours for a 2kW generator to charge.

 

[Walt34]

People think of a whole-house generator, but that is a fuel guzzler which may burn a gallon per hour. How do you store fuel for several days of use? It may work if you have metered nat gas at the home, and if the gas supply stays on during the electric outage.

Lots of folks have standby generators at home, I'm one of them although it is not permanently installed. I just use a transfer switch to isolate it from the grid. (My father was a lineman for a while so I'm partial to taking steps so as not to fry any of those guys.) Our little 4,000 watt unit will power the natural gas furnace motor, refrigerator, freezer, TV, computer, and a few light bulbs, all we have needed for outages so far.

This is a timely thread, as I just read an article about Generac (a major player in the home standby generator market) planning on building up it's sales and support staff in California as a result of the outages: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ss-for-california-spurring-generator-windfall

It does seem that buying a generator, even if you have to have a large propane tank installed to power it, would still be cheaper than moving.

 

[NW-Bound]

It does seem that buying a generator, even if you have to have a large propane tank installed to power it, would still be cheaper than moving.

Yes, a generator with a large above-ground propane tank is a viable solution for people who have the space for it.

For a long-term solution, I still prefer a solar array with battery storage. Not just for off-grid power during outages, it also helps with reducing the power bill in normal time.

I would not be surprised to see Californians paying even higher electric rates in the future. Those 100s of billion to upgrade the electric grid have to come from somewhere.

 

[NW-Bound]

Lots of folks have standby generators at home, I'm one of them although it is not permanently installed. I just use a transfer switch to isolate it from the grid. (My father was a lineman for a while so I'm partial to taking steps so as not to fry any of those guys.)

I strongly believe that if one tries to power his home during an outage without isolating the house circuit from the grid, he would immediately trip the breaker of his generator. He would be trying to feed power into the massive grid to light up his entire county, or at least his town or subdivision. He would learn his lesson quickly when his generator craps out instantly.

 

[HFWR]

Lot of hate on California, not entirely undeserved, but have you taken a gander at the infrastructure in your state lately?

 

[travelover]

I strongly believe that if one tries to power his home during an outage without isolating the house circuit from the grid, he would immediately trip the breaker of his generator. He would be trying to feed power into the massive grid to light up his entire county, or at least his town or subdivision. He would learn his lesson quickly when his generator craps out instantly.

That's true. The problem comes in rural areas where it can be a long run between houses or where a line is broken and lying on a metal fence or similar hidden hazard. The voltage from the generator can get boosted by back powering the pole transformer then onto the broken line segment.

 

[Mulligan]

Are there no prisons? Are the Union workhouses full?

Being homeless isnt a crime so that wont work, but old school “incentives” being dumped by city limit sign with a reminder not to come back used to work. But that was another era. It progressed to more gentile system of one way bus tickets out of town, but that era is over too.

 

[HFWR]

Being homeless isnt a crime so that wont work, but old school “incentives” being dumped by city limit sign with a reminder not to come back used to work. But that was another era. It progressed to more gentile system of one way bus tickets out of town, but that era is over too.

Go be homeless elsewhere...

 

[Mulligan]

Go be homeless elsewhere...

Im old school, so you would know where I stand.....

 

[tb001]

We were in one of the potential outage zones, though we didn’t lose power. There was a fire due east of us and moving fast due to 30-60mph winds. The winds are intense and while the power companies need to be maintaining equipment, I have no problems having our power shut off for a few days if it prevents these large fires. Growing up in the Midwest where we lost power regularly with storms and had a much more extreme climate, it’s nothing by comparison.

We opted for solar with a battery backup. The battery powers our kitchen and internet, so we’re ok for a short duration.

The infrastructure issues are a big problem though. In SoCA, so many people have moved to solar the power companies are hurting. There needs to be big $ put into maintenance that’s not being done on electric, gas and water infrastructure.

I would leave CA in a heartbeat, but can’t find anywhere else with a similar climate and lifestyle in the US. It’s beautiful here.

 

[Another Reader]

PG&E's failure to maintain and update the infrastructure predates any political party's control of the legislature or the governor's office. The company has not done the job at least since World War II. Some of the infrastructure dates back to the 1920's and 30's. The gas line that exploded in San Bruno nine years ago was installed in the mid-1950's and had not been touched since. It's the corporate mindset that's the underlying problem.

 

[NW-Bound]

PG&E is a public utility company, and is overseen by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC). The latter has to share the blame for serious and systemic shortcomings of the electric grid.

Perhaps they don't know what is needed, because they are laymen? What are the qualifications to be a commissioner? Can any random politician be a corporate commissioner? I guess I'd better pay more attention when it comes to voting for my own state commissioner. This is a more important job than people realize.

PS. From Wikipedia:

The CPUC Headquarters are in San Francisco with offices in Los Angeles and Sacramento and the CPUC employs 1000 including judges, engineers, analysts, lawyers, auditors, and support...

Annual budget $ 1.6 billion (2019)...

 

[Another Reader]

PG&E is a public utility company, and is overseen by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC). The latter has to share the blame for serious and systemic shortcomings of the electric grid.

Perhaps they don't know what is needed, because they are laymen? What are the qualifications to be a commissioner? Can any random politician be a corporate commissioner? I guess I'd better pay more attention when it comes to voting for my own state commissioner. This is a more important job than people realize.

PS. From Wikipedia:

Yes, you should. There are plenty of "issues" in your state as well. This is not the place to list or discuss them, but they do exist. The history of individually owned solar and the utilities division of the ACC are good places to start.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am not sure what you talked about, but if it was about the ACC (Arizona Corporation Commission) vote to discontinue net metering and to pay individual solar home owners the same rate as is paid to commercial solar farms, then I support them, even though I am pro solar power myself.

Many states and countries are doing the same thing about paying home solar power the same rate as they can buy from commercial generation facilities.

 

[harley]

Are there no prisons? Are the Union workhouses full?

Being homeless isnt a crime so that wont work, but old school “incentives” being dumped by city limit sign with a reminder not to come back used to work. But that was another era. It progressed to more gentile system of one way bus tickets out of town, but that era is over too.

Nobody reads the classics anymore.

The experts will tell you that rising temperatures and longer spells of dry weather are the main culprits in the increased number and ferocity of wildfires in California (and throughout the US West).

Ah yes, the experts. Also known as people with an agenda and access to a microphone. The raw data doesn't support those conclusions, but that doesn't stop the experts.

 

[ERD50]

I've been trying to get some data, and the more I dig, the more complex it seems. I mentioned seasonal rainfall versus annual average, and even that is tricky. I read that a wetter wet season can create problems - more grass/shrubs grows and if followed by a drier dry season, there is more tinder for fires than if it was a normal wet season. But the average annual rainfall could look normal.

It's complicated.

Some interesting stats/facts on wildfires in Cali:

Are CA Wildfires Becoming More Frequent?

Some good info there, not sure it's always in the best format, kinda hard to parse things?

.... The experts will tell you that rising temperatures and longer spells of dry weather are the main culprits in the increased number and ferocity of wildfires in California (and throughout the US West).

... Ah yes, the experts. Also known as people with an agenda and access to a microphone. The raw data doesn't support those conclusions, but that doesn't stop the experts.

I share harley's skepticism of "the experts". There are agendas out there. Show me the data, and lets see if we can make sense of it.

PG&E's failure to maintain and update the infrastructure predates any political party's control of the legislature or the governor's office. The company has not done the job at least since World War II. Some of the infrastructure dates back to the 1920's and 30's. The gas line that exploded in San Bruno nine years ago was installed in the mid-1950's and had not been touched since. It's the corporate mindset that's the underlying problem.

Hah! In Chicago, this past summer they replaced a gas line that was still in operation, installed before the Civil War!

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loc...---00_00_00---00_43_28_Chicago-511969312.html

City historian Tim Samuelson speaks about retiring the oldest natural gas pipe in the city of Chicago. After 160 years of delivering natural gas service to Chicago’s River North neighborhood, Peoples Gas removes gas pipe that was installed in 1859. (Published Friday, Jun 28, 2019)

In the late 1990's, Chicago had a gas accident similar to the more recent one near Boston, but overall, gas safety seems to be pretty good, even with this old stuff in place.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

I have been buying wine grapes from California for 8 years. This years crop as of 10/27/19 has not yet been totally harvested yet. I am still awaiting shipment of my last order. In past warmer years, I have had my order fulfilled before the last week in September. You can blame climate change all you want, but not this year, we are almost a month behind.

Yep, the grape/juice shipments that our Wine Club arranges from CA vineyards were at least a month late this year.

For those who like anecdotes.

... There are going to be more fires in Calif. in the coming years, and more intense fires, because of climate change - regardless what measures PG&E takes to prevent them. ...

If that's the case, then PG&E absolutely does have to take measures to prevent them. You can't just say "not my problem", just because you aren't directly responsible for the issues that might be making the fires more common/intense.

Just like a manufacturer who can no longer source a certain quality component for their product. They can't just say "Ho-Hum" because it wasn't their direct problem. It affects them, and they need to find a way to deal with it.

-ERD50

 

[Another Reader]

ERD50:

I asked in the California fires thread that seems to have disappeared about shutting down distribution lines and not transmission lines. Many or maybe most of the recent large fires seem to have been started by problems with transmission lines in remote areas. Are transmission lines in California kept energized because of the need to support the grid? How effective is shutting down distribution locally in preventing these major fires if the bigger problem is the transmission lines?

 

[Senator]

If that's the case, then PG&E absolutely does have to take measures to prevent them. You can't just say "not my problem", just because you aren't directly responsible for the issues that might be making the fires more common/intense.

Just like a manufacturer who can no longer source a certain quality component for their product. They can't just say "Ho-Hum" because it wasn't their direct problem. It affects them, and they need to find a way to deal with it.

-ERD50

Unfortunately, this is more of a case of forest mismanagement than climate change...

 

[NW-Bound]

ERD50:

I asked in the California fires thread that seems to have disappeared about shutting down distribution lines and not transmission lines. Many or maybe most of the recent large fires seem to have been started by problems with transmission lines in remote areas. Are transmission lines in California kept energized because of the need to support the grid? How effective is shutting down distribution locally in preventing these major fires if the bigger problem is the transmission lines?

I notice that in both the outage last week and the current one, San Francisco proper is spared, while all the surrounding cities go dark. It appears Sacramento is similarly spared.

I am sure there are economic considerations, but strongly suspect political clout is involved here too. Not sure about Sacramento, but SF definitely does not have any local power generation plant, and some transmission lines have to be kept live to bring in power.

Too bad there's not enough power to share with Oakland or Sausalito across the bridges. Just like in a shipwreck and there is not enough room on a lifeboat.

 

[Another Reader]

I notice that in both the outage last week and the current one, San Francisco proper is spared, while all the surrounding cities go dark. It appears Sacramento is similarly spared.

I am sure there are economic considerations, but strongly suspect political clout is involved here too. Not sure about Sacramento, but SF definitely does not have any local power generation plant, and some transmission lines have to be kept live to bring in power.

Too bad there's not enough power to share with Oakland or Sausalito across the bridges. Just like in a shipwreck and there is not enough room on a lifeboat.

Sacramento is not served by PG&E. It is served by SMUD, a public utility district. San Francisco has very little open space for fires to gain traction. The flatlands of the South Bay are also exempt from the shut off. I was shut off in the first one, but I could drive down the hill to the grocery store and surrounding neighborhoods that had electricity. Topography, proximity to power lines, and low building density all contribute to risk.

 

[NW-Bound]

Ah, these Sacramento residents are smart.

And speaking of SMUD, I just read that this utility company even has its own generation plants. Son of a gun. Its biggest plant is the 500-megawatt Cosumnes Power Plant, and it burns natural gas. Way to go!

And I also read that Davis and West Sacramento, two adjacent cities, wanted to join and be served by SMUD in 2006, but Sacramento voters said "No way".

 

[Another Reader]

Ski-pro can tell you all about SMUD... Haven't seen any posts from him recently, though.