Maui wild fires

Being in the business for over 40 years with open secondary wire that can happen. With the wire (Tri-plex) that has been used for the last 60 years or so rubbing off the insulation could happen but very odds of it starting a spark are very low.

To many variables to many unknowns to actually tell what could of caused the fire at this time.

That makes sense! I saw my little sparky problem about 30 years ago. Time flies. Most overhead services were taken out in the 1996 hurricane and replaced with the Tri-plex you describe.
 
I'm assuming when you say distribution lines are insulated you are meaning secondary or wires coming to the home that has been transformed (transformer) for useable power.

At least here, the distribution lines (and secondary lines) ARE insulated. I know that's unusual in the US.

Distribution lines are lines that leave a substation and distribute power over an area and go to a transformer that breaks it down to secondary voltage that goes to the home etc.
Distribution and transmission line aren't insulated if they are overhead lines. The transmission lines are the lines coming from generation plants to a substation.

I know most won't agree with me on this but even the best maintenance power supplier things like that can happen. They can check line today and over night a limb breaks and falls unto line, or anything can happen and cause a problem.

Fire is a devastating event no matter there or where when effects lives.

Yes, your description of transmission and distribution lines is what I meant.

Most of our outages are either from a tree falling and taking out a line or a moron hitting a power poll. Most of our distribution lines are covered with tree branches. Like Koolau said, stuff grows too fast here to keep up!
 
Glad to hear they aren't following the California model.:facepalm:

Yeah, it is speculation on speculation.

A discarded cigarette is even more likely.

Well there is already a lawsuit against the electric utility...Lawyers act pretty quickly!
 
... I'm just a guy who reads the paper and watches TV (oh, and monitors NWS.) Every week or two, I see big wildfires on Maui - on TV (well, when I'm in Honolulu.) These fires are often big enough they bring out the Chinooks with the big dippers on them to put out the fires. Occasionally, a farm building gets destroyed. I've often wondered (Best scratching my chin look) "What would happen if a big wind carried one of those fires to a town?" It happened in the west last year. Could it happen here?...

Sugar cane growers used to burn their plantation prior to harvest. Burning off the leaves made it easier to harvest the stalks.

These controlled burning did not cause collateral damages, I would think.
 
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Over 90 souls have perished, and probably the number will go up.
I read they are advising folks to not drink or even shower due to contamination in the water and to completely suit up with masks, etc due to risk of arsenic and asbestos. How long will that last and does it affect other areas of Maui?
I had not heard warnings like that for wildfires around here in the past.

I think the water warning is for mostly the burned areas but also nearby as well if you get your water from a burned area. That's not terribly unusual here. When there is an extended power outage the water pressure can't be maintained in the lines and they worry about things seeping in. At some point they will purge the lines and lift the warning. I personally think it is a pretty low risk but would still heed it. I've specifically heard benzine mentioned so I'm thinking the concern is contamination from gasoline that may have spilled near water lines but I don't know.

I'm not sure where the asbestos and arsenic concerns are coming from. There is actually very little arsenic in Hawaii because of the geology. Where I came from in Arizona arsenic was present in the soil. People were routinely exposed in the dust they breathed and the water utility routinely failed to meet the arsenic standards. Asbestos is likely in the insulation of the old houses...but wait, very few old buildings here had insulation. Most people are exposed to asbestos all the time from the dust of worn brake pads of cars accumulating in the gutters. Less so now but certainly through the 90s. I'm not saying these things aren't a problem or that people shouldn't be concerned in general. I just don't understand why the risk is perceived to be so high in Lahaina. (Ok, I did some research and arsenic apparently comes from chemicals used at old sugar plantations!)

I am NOT impressed with the local government response the last few days. It has been an unmitigated debacle. I am impressed with the hundreds of volunteers working to help get supplies to West Maui in spite of seeming intentional interference by the police. The cops shut down the roads so they are using boats to get in.

And it's not just Maui. Air tour companies are using their planes to ferry supplies over to Maui. People showed up at the airport in Kona today to help sort and load supplies onto small planes and on Maui they have shut down a runway at the airport and dedicated it only to planes flying in relief supplies.

Kaiser Permanente and our other big medical company (HMSA) have set up pharmacies at some of the Kaanapali resorts so people can get things they need like insulin. They are also setting up free clinics offering first aid and mental health services.

If the government doesn't start moving faster the locals are gonna have the town cleaned up and rebuilt before the government has a plan!
 
Sugar cane growers used to burn their plantation prior to harvest. Burning off the leaves made it easier to harvest the stalks.

These controlled burning did not collateral damages, I would think.

I was informed by my partner who is local and born here. Never worry about white smoke - it's just the cane burning. Black smoke means a house or other structure.
 
Sugar cane growers used to burn their plantation prior to harvest. Burning off the leaves made it easier to harvest the stalks.

These controlled burning did not cause collateral damages, I would think.

My wife was witness to an instance where it cost millions. It was while she was working at chemical site on the banks of the Mississippi when a sugar cane field was undergoing a controlled burn, only the wind shifted and some of the debris fell onto the substation feeding their site. She said there was a large electrical explosion followed shortly after by a loss of power to the site and the production units going into emergency shutdowns.

All non-essential staff got to go home early that day.
 
My wife was witness to an instance where it cost millions. It was while she was working at chemical site on the banks of the Mississippi when a sugar cane field was undergoing a controlled burn, only the wind shifted and some of the debris fell onto the substation feeding their site. She said there was a large electrical explosion followed shortly after by a loss of power to the site and the production units going into emergency shutdowns.

All non-essential staff got to go home early that day.

This is very interesting! Back in 1985 or 86, I worked in South Florida and we endured burning season as we had no choice. We always hoped for a nice sea breeze.

The lights went out, and the word was they were out from West Palm to Miami. The culprit was the cane burning. Something about the soot covering the insulators on the main transmission lines and causing a short to ground. The power was out for quite a few hours and we were sent home.

Have no idea what the calculated cost was.
 
I learned about sugar cane burning when I was there on one of the trips. I also learned that it had always been a controversial issue, pitching "old timers" against "newcomers", sugar cane workers against allergy sufferers, etc...

Searched the Web, and found out that the practice was banned in 2017, as described in a blog.

See: https://www.mauijungalow.com/2017/03/the-end-of-cane-burning.html
 
Sugar cane growers used to burn their plantation prior to harvest. Burning off the leaves made it easier to harvest the stalks.

These controlled burning did not cause collateral damages, I would think.


Yeah, we were there in 2002 and there was still one main cane field left on island (and they were burning it.) That was right in the valley IIRC where winds are the highest. No problems.



I do think there was more dead brush than usual, but that could also have been burned off in a controlled burn. The wind was the key in this case, but that should have been anticipated IMHO.
 
If the government doesn't start moving faster the locals are gonna have the town cleaned up and rebuilt before the government has a plan!


About the time folks are ready to rebuild, the local (and state) gummint will slow things down with arcane building permit requirements.
 
About the time folks are ready to rebuild, the local (and state) gummint will slow things down with arcane building permit requirements.

I don't think I am as much of a gummint cynic as you but I'm getting some pretty bad vibes from things I'm hearing. Today the Hawaii County Mayor's office said people should give cash to some specific major charities rather than goods because there is no distribution network in Maui. Yet I've seen in news reports and heard from friends and family on Maui that the locals are doing a pretty good job of getting things over to West Maui on their own in spite of interference from the police! They want money to go to big charities that take a cut.

The cops are falling on their faces every day. They announced a placard system for access to West Maui then shut it down after a couple of hours because they could not manage the demand. It's really pathetic!

I think we are seeing big time CYA and wagon circling. In addition to the electric company losing a third of its value today because of lawsuits, there are reports that fire fighters found dry hydrants and other failures that prevented fighting the fires.

I think the authorities are desperate to keep people out to prevent gathering evidence. I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist but I have lived here long enough to know how things work in this state.
 
I don't think I am as much of a gummint cynic as you but I'm getting some pretty bad vibes from things I'm hearing. Today the Hawaii County Mayor's office said people should give cash to some specific major charities rather than goods because there is no distribution network in Maui. Yet I've seen in news reports and heard from friends and family on Maui that the locals are doing a pretty good job of getting things over to West Maui on their own in spite of interference from the police! They want money to go to big charities that take a cut.

The cops are falling on their faces every day. They announced a placard system for access to West Maui then shut it down after a couple of hours because they could not manage the demand. It's really pathetic!

I think we are seeing big time CYA and wagon circling. In addition to the electric company losing a third of its value today because of lawsuits, there are reports that fire fighters found dry hydrants and other failures that prevented fighting the fires.

I think the authorities are desperate to keep people out to prevent gathering evidence. I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist but I have lived here long enough to know how things work in this state.


Heh, heh, sounds like you'll soon be as cynical as I am. That way, you're rarely disappointed in anyone. Sad but true.
 
Late breaking news, actually from a few hours ago. The governor has ordered the road reopened to let anyone back into West Maui. It was not even billed as a consensus but rather as the result of a meeting among county and state officials. The fact that it was a proclamation by the governor and not announced by the county mayor or police chief is revealing, especially after the Lt Governor said the state government would not intervene in the county's decisions.

An important context here is that the governor's wife is native Hawaiian. The locals are furious at the lack of support and downright interference they are getting from the police and county officials as they try to get supplies to people in West Maui while tourists go on their snorkeling excursions, taking up moorings that could be used by supply boats. It's also not helping that the electric utility prioritized getting the Kaanapali resorts back online.

I said a couple of days ago that if you have a trip planned to Maui you will probably be fine. Things have significantly escalated and the attitude has shifted to "go home, don't come." That mostly applies to West Maui but is expanding as well. People recognize the value of tourist dollars but know it can wait. My friends and relatives in Kihei don't want people coming. I'm not saying you would be in any danger coming to Maui in the next few months but I personally would not want to be a tourist there anytime soon. I would not hesitate to go there to help even with my white skin because I know how to be respectful. But folks are getting fed up with any displays of fun at this horrible time. Just be aware.
 
I'm in the Makiki district of Honolulu. The other day, I rode past the State House, and there were dozens of cars and people dropping off supplies of all sorts for the Maui/Lahaina fire victims. I'm giving through my church to help out. They've only just begin clean-up. They must recover bodies. And it will go slow, because they want it done "pono." With respect and dignity for the dead. Actually that sort of slow, gentle searching is more for the sake of the very sensitive, scrupulous locals. I dunno anywhere else where such an approach would be taken.
 
I'm in the Makiki district of Honolulu. The other day, I rode past the State House, and there were dozens of cars and people dropping off supplies of all sorts for the Maui/Lahaina fire victims. I'm giving through my church to help out. They've only just begin clean-up. They must recover bodies. And it will go slow, because they want it done "pono." With respect and dignity for the dead. Actually that sort of slow, gentle searching is more for the sake of the very sensitive, scrupulous locals. I dunno anywhere else where such an approach would be taken.

Thank you for helping through your church!

Yes, if you heard the Maui police chief speaking the other night he mentioned several times about the iwi in the ground (or he might have used aina, the Hawaiian word for ground or land). Iwi is the word for bones, or more generally, remains, and there is great respect accorded to them. Hawaiians are descended from Asians and Asian religions are all about ancestor worship. So the bones of ancestors are very sacred.

It is actually illegal to take pictures of bones in Hawaii. There are limited exceptions for police investigations but they are limited. When human remains are found here there is a process to go through. If it is an obvious recent body or burial then it is handled by the police of course but ultimately each island has a burial council that can overrule the police if the remains are of indeterminate age or are very old (I'm not sure how old they need to be but I don't think they need to be pre-contact or pre-statehood, 50 years is a possibility).

I think, although I am not sure, that the burial councils have authority over native Hawaiian remains even for modern deaths. And Hawaiians have a statutory right to be buried with their ancestors which may not be in modern cemeteries.

So until the bodies are identified, there are statutes that dictate respectful treatment of the remains. The statutes even recognize that a western process with a specific flowchart and steps does not satisfy the cultural requirements that involve a consultory process (ho'oponopono) to resolve issues. And one can be Hawaiian through lineal descendency (i.e. genetic) or culturally. In other words, the police have no authority to determine if someone is native Hawaiian nor can the state dictate a process! So they have to treat every body as it it were native.

Now the vast majority of native Hawaiians who lost loved ones in Lahaina are probably as frustrated as anyone about the slow process and just want closure. But there is a process to be followed here that is enshrouded in state law and I suspect they are following it.

You are hearing the word "pono" a lot both in the post I am replying to and in news stories. It means "right" as in just. The ho'oponopono process I mentioned above basically means making things right. "Ho'o" is the verb to make and pono is right. But since pono is reduplicated it means something along the lines of "very right" or "righteous."
 
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Thank you for helping through your church!

Yes, if you heard the Maui police chief speaking the other night he mentioned several times about the iwi in the ground (or he might have used aina, the Hawaiian word for ground or land). Iwi is the word for bones, or more generally, remains, and there is great respect accorded to them. Hawaiians are descended from Asians and Asian religions are all about ancestor worship. So the bones of ancestors are very sacred.

It is actually illegal to take pictures of bones in Hawaii. There are limited exceptions for police investigations but they are limited. When human remains are found here there is a process to go through. If it is an obvious recent body or burial then it is handled by the police of course but ultimately each island has a burial council that can overrule the police if the remains are of indeterminate age or are very old (I'm not sure how old they need to be but I don't think they need to be pre-contact or pre-statehood, 50 years is a possibility).

I think, although I am not sure, that the burial councils have authority over native Hawaiian remains even for modern deaths. And Hawaiians have a statutory right to be buried with their ancestors which may not be in modern cemeteries.

So until the bodies are identified, there are statutes that dictate respectful treatment of the remains. The statutes even recognize that a western process with a specific flowchart and steps does not satisfy the cultural requirements that involve a consultory process (ho'oponopono) to resolve issues. And one can be Hawaiian through lineal descendency (i.e. genetic) or culturally. In other words, the police have no authority to determine if someone is native Hawaiian nor can the state dictate a process! So they have to treat every body as it it were native.

Now the vast majority of native Hawaiians who lost loved ones in Lahaina are probably as frustrated as anyone about the slow process and just want closure. But there is a process to be followed here that is enshrouded in state law and I suspect they are following it.

You are hearing the word "pono" a lot both in the post I am replying to and in news stories. It means "right" as in just. The ho'oponopono process I mentioned above basically means making things right. "Ho'o" is the verb to make and pono is right. But since pono is reduplicated it means something along the lines of "very right" or "righteous."


Our church sent out an appeal to members for donations. I like that as I know our church's financial guy. He will see that any funds will go where needed.


Thank you SecondAttempt for this cogent and timely treatise on Hawaiian cultural treatment of remains. It does shed some light on the slow process we are experiencing right now. I've only lived in the Islands for 15 years - and I did know at least some of what you shared - but it's good to have a more complete understanding of what is happening.

I feel so sorry for the survivors, relatives and those who want to help. There must be a lot of frustration and sadness mixed together as remains are found and identified.

Prayers for the people most affected and all my aloha as well.
 
https://mauicounty.granicus.com/pla...irect=true&h=571ecc8ff8b4c0d74cf2b5f4643afd34

Attached is a fascinating presentation given to the incoming Maui County Council back in March, relating to systemic inequality, and what can decision makers do to promote justice. Purpose is to give council members “perspective” in making decisions, especially related to the land. Professor Kaleikoa Ka’eo seems to say the “people’s ownership” was never given up. Basically a Hawaiian CRT.

It will be interesting to see how this view influences decisions regarding rebuild of Lahaina.

The Profs presentation starts at about the 17:00 mark. I’ve watched I three times. Wish all my profs were as engaging as Kaleikoa.
 
https://mauicounty.granicus.com/pla...irect=true&h=571ecc8ff8b4c0d74cf2b5f4643afd34

Attached is a fascinating presentation given to the incoming Maui County Council back in March, relating to systemic inequality, and what can decision makers do to promote justice. Purpose is to give council members “perspective” in making decisions, especially related to the land. Professor Kaleikoa Ka’eo seems to say the “people’s ownership” was never given up. Basically a Hawaiian CRT.

It will be interesting to see how this view influences decisions regarding rebuild of Lahaina.

The Profs presentation starts at about the 17:00 mark. I’ve watched I three times. Wish all my profs were as engaging as Kaleikoa.

This is a huge can of worms. In my opinion, some wealthy sugar barons, with support from US Marines did overthrow the Hawaiian Kingdom and it was illegal under international law at the time. The US government issued an apology for its role in this in 1993. But then again, the American Revolution was basically an illegal insurrection against the English monarch.

But I don't think the land ownership issues hold water in any case. King Kamehameha III distributed all the land in Hawaii in an act known as the Great Mahele (mahele means division). And that was in the 1840s, long before the Hawaiian Republic, the Territory of Hawaii, or the State of Hawaii. Each of the successor governments have honored the Mahele awards and subsequent sales/transfers. But there are some European banks that will not buy securities containing Hawaiian mortgages and Swiss courts have apparently cast doubt on Hawaiian land title.

There is a movement here to capitalize on the illegal taking of Hawaii by seeking separation from the United States. While I think the Hawaiian Sovereignty movement has some merit and many facts on its side. It would be an economic disaster. Hawaii would instantly lose the billions of dollars it gets from the federal government and would immediately be a third world country! Most people here understand that.
 
FWIW, it seems that death count increases are slowing way down. There are still about 800 people unaccounted for which is concerning. Hopefully, they found shelter elsewhere and are getting on with their lives as best they can.

In my younger days I knew a lot of people who were ‘beach bums’ and literally lived in Hawaii on the beach or very close by on the nearest patch of grass. I wonder if they are still around and make most up the unaccounted people.
 
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Speculation still revolves around kids or whole families yet to be found. I kinda doubt that at this point because there haven't been many of such situations found so far - at least not reported. Of course, there were so me casualties in the water and some of those folks may never be found. It's puzzling that the "missing" number is so high. It can take a while for people to find each other after a disaster, but Maui is NOT a big place.



I wonder too if the "missing" count is based on more than one person reporting the same missing person. Folks can be known by different names to different people - depending upon relationships. I knew a guy who most people didn't even know his first name. He was called red due to his hair. His last name was so common that most would have said "Red Johnson" is missing while his family would say Derek Johnson is missing. YMMV
 
I probably mentioned this before. My 80-year-old brother (George) is/was a "snow bird" with a condo that I believe is on the Lahaina end of Ka'anapali beach, and another in the midwest. I contacted him by email immediately, and he responded saying that he and his wife were vacationing in Madrid when all this happened. I have no idea if they are listed as "safe". They are responsible people so I'd think they would tell someone, but tbh I think they are traveling through a relatively remote part of eastern Europe at the moment with long time friends from that area and they may not have done that yet.

Almost all of the occupants of his Ka'anapali condo complex and many others nearby, are also "snow birds". I imagine that at least some of them (but not all!) have not reported in, and will turn out to be safe. Sadly, others may be nothing more but a spot of organic material in the sand. We may never know.
 
Speculation still revolves around kids or whole families yet to be found. I kinda doubt that at this point because there haven't been many of such situations found so far - at least not reported. Of course, there were so me casualties in the water and some of those folks may never be found. It's puzzling that the "missing" number is so high. It can take a while for people to find each other after a disaster, but Maui is NOT a big place.



I wonder too if the "missing" count is based on more than one person reporting the same missing person. Folks can be known by different names to different people - depending upon relationships. I knew a guy who most people didn't even know his first name. He was called red due to his hair. His last name was so common that most would have said "Red Johnson" is missing while his family would say Derek Johnson is missing. YMMV

I don't think the "missing count" is from missing person reports. It also went back up to about 1150 today.

I personally think the death toll is going to be much higher than the 115 it stands at now but I'm beginning to suspect that the missing number is too high. I think a lot of people evacuated the island on the day of the fire when they were running all the evacuation flights.

I don't know what happened on those flights but they said they were working with TSA to expedite so it is possible the flights were operated "non-TSA." We already have some interisland flights where you don't go through TSA so it's not an impossible idea. But the aircraft involved would probably need to be searched and "sterilized" before flying to the mainland to ensure no one stashed a gun.

There were somewhere in excess of 30,000 people flown off of Maui in a little over 3 days. It would be easy to lose 1150 in that crowd. I don't know if they were requiring tickets or travel documentation so they may not have accurate names of those who left. Understand that a lot of people's IDs and other documents were destroyed or they were cut off from them.

From what I hear it was pretty chaotic. We were getting updates from a family member there (not Lahaina) who works as a nurse at Maui Memorial Hospital. They were preparing for mass casualties and were hearing rumors of lots of bodies (which turned out to be true) and a few other things.

That fire was burning fast and hot. I have not heard anything about the condition of the bodies they were finding, and I hate to get graphic, but it's very possible there are bodies that were burned beyond even what a cadaver dog can detect.

For those that are interested, there was a benefit concert on Sunday evening, because music is what the people of Hawaii do when facing challenges. It raised over $1 million! You can watch it at

Ola means healing usually so Mauiola means Healing of Maui.

Living in Hawaii is a whole lot different from visiting as a tourist, especially on the Neighbor Islands (not Oahu/Honolulu). It can sometimes feel like a third world country with both incompetence and corruption being rampant, and not just in government. (Koolau mentioned upthread about arcane building permit rules slowing down the rebuilding. Well, they are already ridiculously arcane!)

But times like this make me truly proud of our group of canoes (islands) in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. People are really coming together in remarkable ways! In addition to all the monetary and supplies donations, locals have set up "pods" like little villages where people in need can pick up supplies (almost all free). There is a Starlink access point where people can connect to the internet to check in with loved ones, etc. I'm not going to be critical of the FEMA, state, and county response but I am going to say that what the locals are doing is nothing short of amazing!

And Lahaina is going to need a Coit Tower because 17 of the 18 Maui fire fighters who were trying to fight the fire with dry hydrants and other obstacles lost their own homes while trying to protect everyone else's!
 
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