Maui wild fires

[Koolau]

Okay, I answered my own question. There WAS a warning about the potential for run-away wildfires issued on Sunday - for all Islands. See about 1/3 way down this article.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/08/11/maui-hawaii-wildfires-sirens/70572170007/


The sirens issue has been pointed out now by MANY residents. Of course, had the Tsunami system been activated - the typical advice is to run for the hills (higher ground.) The only real escape from the Lahina fires was likely into the ocean if people couldn't take the coast road.


I'm still gonna wait on further news about preparedness for a wind-whipped wildfire.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Okay, I answered my own question. There WAS a warning about the potential for run-away wildfires issued on Sunday - for all Islands. See about 1/3 way down this article.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/08/11/maui-hawaii-wildfires-sirens/70572170007/


The sirens issue has been pointed out now by MANY residents. Of course, had the Tsunami system been activated - the typical advice is to run for the hills (higher ground.) The only real escape from the Lahina fires was likely into the ocean if people couldn't take the coast road.


I'm still gonna wait on further news about preparedness for a wind-whipped wildfire.

It's really easy to be critical of the Maui response but one of the things I think Hawaii does really well is civil defense. For those who don't live here that's our term for managing emergencies. Sure, they don't always do everything right, but compared to how poorly many functions here work like registering a car or getting a building permit, I think civil defense does a pretty good job.

Red flag warnings are issued by the National Weather Service and not by any State or County authorities.

I saw a clip from some guys who were out on a boat and saw the fire from a distance and it was basically very small but a single house up on the hill was burning. They said suddenly 5 minutes later the fire exploded and was rapidly engulfing Lahaina! So things happened really fast.

I'm all for holding officials accountable and there may have been mistakes here but I wish people would focus on the displaced people at this time.

I think the biggest problem here is the lack of parallel highways and mauka/makai connectors. It creates traffic jams and stalls everything any time there is a warning for anything.

 

[Koolau]

It's really easy to be critical of the Maui response but one of the things I think Hawaii does really well is civil defense. For those who don't live here that's our term for managing emergencies. Sure, they don't always do everything right, but compared to how poorly many functions here work like registering a car or getting a building permit, I think civil defense does a pretty good job.

Perhaps you have had more chances to see CD in action. I've been fortunate not to experience a hurricane (yet.) But, having said that, I haven't seen a dramatic level of CD in action - but I could be wrong so YMMV.

 

[Koolau]

Red flag warnings are issued by the National Weather Service and not by any State or County authorities.

Say what? Gotta call you on this one. If State agencies are not monitoring the NWS during a freaking hurricane, I'm gonna fault THEM! They know the potential for wildfires too. 1+1 = 7 in this case. I already cited that one article in which the Island of Kauai made it a POINT to look out for wild fires due to Dora. It's the wettest Island and has no leeward infrastructure. Yet they picked right up on the danger. If Maui "missed" the fact that there were wildfire potential AND strong wind potential - then shame on them.

Oh, and "Josh" should have had better folks advising him when he was off Island during a hurricane (just south of the Islands.)

I'm 5000 miles away right now and I watched Dora on NWS from the time it formed. I'd like to think State and Island gummint would have as much interest as I do. I only own one tiny Condo. And I worry about wind blowing rain in my open windows, so I watch for hurricanes and rare south winds so I can alert friends to close my windows.

Sorry, end of rant. For now.

 

[Koolau]

I saw a clip from some guys who were out on a boat and saw the fire from a distance and it was basically very small but a single house up on the hill was burning. They said suddenly 5 minutes later the fire exploded and was rapidly engulfing Lahaina! So things happened really fast.

They sure do happen fast when TSHTF. Not so fast when brush builds up for years and years during droughts and there is no removal and there are no preemptive burns (when there are no hurricane winds). I think we saw this before. Last year, in fact. The folks in the western states decided not to manage brush and other fire hazards in their forests for 30 years. When it all went sideways, a lot of people lost homes and even lives. It's a classic case of deja vu (all over again - apologies to Yogi B.)

 

[Koolau]

I'm all for holding officials accountable and there may have been mistakes here but I wish people would focus on the displaced people at this time.

I'm all for dealing with the displaced people as well. Unfortunately, as we do that we forget to hold people accountable at times. By the time we get around to it - it becomes "that's old news - can't we just move on, now?" Too many recent examples of that self-serving attitude by those who would just as soon it all went away.

 

[Koolau]

I think the biggest problem here is the lack of parallel highways and mauka/makai connectors. It creates traffic jams and stalls everything any time there is a warning for anything.

Honestly, I think that's the biggest "secondary" problem. No fire? No problem with the roads. But, YES, by all means, let's deal with that too. Nothing any human population does will prevent all disasters, so it's good to have a good back-up system which Lahaina did not have (nor do any of our Islands that I'm aware of - though I'm no expert and only really know Oahu.)

I just recall living at the terminus of three Island crossing highways and a coast highway that went both ways out of town. THAT was a very nice feeling! Nothing like it anyplace else in our lovely Islands (that I'm aware of.) YMMV

 

[SecondAttempt]

Say what? Gotta call you on this one. If State agencies are not monitoring the NWS during a freaking hurricane, I'm gonna fault THEM! They know the potential for wildfires too. 1+1 = 7 in this case. I already cited that one article in which the Island of Kauai made it a POINT to look out for wild fires due to Dora. It's the wettest Island and has no leeward infrastructure. Yet they picked right up on the danger. If Maui "missed" the fact that there were wildfire potential AND strong wind potential - then shame on them.

I think we might not be understanding each other. All I am saying is that the NWS issues red flag warnings just like the National Hurricane Center issues the hurricane alerts, the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center issues tsunami messages. But yes, local civil defense is responsible for notifying us and telling us what to do.

I guess I'm inclined to cut them a break. We had a red flag warning and wildfires on the Big Island at the same time. A lot of my coworkers were told to evacuate for no reason and I had a much longer commute because they closed roads that didn't need to be closed. But had a fire exploded like it did in Lahaina, people were protected. It's always a tough call for them and I usually think they are too conservative at the expense of inconveniencing people. I guess Lahaina is a reminder that their conservatism may have merit.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Honestly, I think that's the biggest "secondary" problem. No fire? No problem with the roads. But, YES, by all means, let's deal with that too. Nothing any human population does will prevent all disasters, so it's good to have a good back-up system which Lahaina did not have (nor do any of our Islands that I'm aware of - though I'm no expert and only really know Oahu.)

I just recall living at the terminus of three Island crossing highways and a coast highway that went both ways out of town. THAT was a very nice feeling! Nothing like it anyplace else in our lovely Islands (that I'm aware of.) YMMV

I think you have it best on Oahu actually. There does seem to be some effort to make mauka-makai connectors in Kona on the Big Island. But south of Kona where I live there is one road and a traffic accident or fallen tree can shut things down for hours to days. Yes, I choose to live here but third world comes to mind often.

The biggest problem in Kona is that there was no planning for decades [-]centuries[/-] so now the only real engineering options involve condemning and bulldozing luxury homes but then...corruption.

 

[Koolau]

I think we might not be understanding each other. All I am saying is that the NWS issues red flag warnings just like the National Hurricane Center issues the hurricane alerts, the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center issues tsunami messages. But yes, local civil defense is responsible for notifying us and telling us what to do.

I guess I'm inclined to cut them a break. We had a red flag warning and wildfires on the Big Island at the same time. A lot of my coworkers were told to evacuate for no reason and I had a much longer commute because they closed roads that didn't need to be closed. But had a fire exploded like it did in Lahaina, people were protected. It's always a tough call for them and I usually think they are too conservative at the expense of inconveniencing people. I guess Lahaina is a reminder that their conservatism may have merit.

When Lahina burns to the ground, killing (heaven only knows how many people) I'm sorry, but I'm not in much mood to cut anyone slack - especially since all the conditions were known. The fact that Maui doesn't deal with the dried brush that covers square miles of its hills overlooking cities (like Lahina) seems a major issue.

Could this disaster been averted. I don't know, but it seems multiple mistakes were made. Even a decent warning system would have been nice. Remember the "atomic attack" on Honolulu back a few years? Okay, I could maybe cut someone some slack for the original mistake - but I can't cut the mayor any slack for losing his password such that he could not cancel the warning. I can't cut him slack for not getting on the radio and saying "oops!" IIRC one person died during the fiasco. Many were hurt and more psychological damage was inflicted than we'll ever know. They FINALLY fired the guy who sent out the fake message - they had to force the mayor to fire him because this was his second major screw up. IIRC that was it. Maybe the Mayor hired someone to memorize his password for him.


I put the wild fires destroying Lahina in the same general category though I AM willing to wait for some more data/info to come in. I just might be wrong about what would have been possible to avert this disaster. YMMV

In your case, on Big Island, I guess this is just one of those "when is gummint doing too much and when is it doing too little?" I'm betting the surviving (former) residents of Lahina would vote for doing "too much."

I'm just a guy who reads the paper and watches TV (oh, and monitors NWS.) Every week or two, I see big wildfires on Maui - on TV (well, when I'm in Honolulu.) These fires are often big enough they bring out the Chinooks with the big dippers on them to put out the fires. Occasionally, a farm building gets destroyed. I've often wondered (Best scratching my chin look) "What would happen if a big wind carried one of those fires to a town?" It happened in the west last year. Could it happen here?


Sorry, if I seem "obsessed" with this subject. Maybe it's my way of dealing with this fire. Maybe my thinking is colored by my past. I have a vivid memory of a major fire in my home town. It happened in a repair garage. The fire dept. went in to save the day and someone had screwed up - left power energized which rekindled the fire. Several fire fighters lost their lives. That building was turned into (of all things) a retail building with several shops. Perhaps 45 years after the original tragedy, one of the businesses was remodeling. The existing facade was removed and I could see the black smoke discolored building underneath. I almost lost it as I drove by. So, maybe it's me. But I don't want this swept under a carpet. YMMV

 

[JoeWras]

Of course, with high winds, you tend to get overhead wires touching, triggering explosion of transformers which can spark wildfires. Hard to say at this point.

The speculation is converging on wires and foliage contacting due to the winds.

If you've never seen how easy this can start a fire, then check out the following 34 second video. We go from a perfectly healthy tree, to a tree inferno. Although the tree "goes out", if there were wind, sparks could be spread by this very short lived event.

 

[Winemaker]

The lack of emergency route on Maui is another concern to me. There is only 2 routes of escape, the road that circles Maui on the north side and the main road that goes through the two tunnels. Several times the tunnel road has been blocked for several reasons and folks were trapped for a day or two, missing work, flights, and destinations.

 

[Koolau]

The lack of emergency route on Maui is another concern to me. There is only 2 routes of escape, the road that circles Maui on the north side and the main road that goes through the two tunnels. Several times the tunnel road has been blocked for several reasons and folks were trapped for a day or two, missing work, flights, and destinations.

Yeah, busy as Lahina is with tourists, I never understand why the road wasn't more of a priority - just for tourists. The added safety of a better "escape route" would have seemed a very good plus - but, alas, it was not apparently a priority. Of course, I haven't been to Lahina for 22 years, so I'm speculating a bit about the road.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I did find a fundraiser on GoFundMe that looked legit. If interested you can search "Aid to Lahaina Families affected by the wildfire" or it will likely come up near the top as it is a very current event.


We had only been twice, but some very precious memories were created and just a great area.


cd : O)

While I don't think donating money is necessary right now, if someone feels compelled to donate that way, the Hawaii Community Foundation is a legit charity and they have set up a Maui Strong fund specifically to help the victims of the fires.

 

[SecondAttempt]

We have a trip planned to Kauai next week. So hopefully, that will be okay. Don't want to be a burden on resources, but for good or bad, the Hawaiian economy needs tourists.
cd : O(

I don't think you will have any issues on Kauai. Here on the Big Island there is really no visible impact beyond a palpable sense of sadness and disbelief among locals. I don't just mean Hawaiians, just everyone.

And everyone wants to help. There is a very old saying/attitude here that the islands are like canoes. You may squabble with your canoe mates at times but when a problem comes up everyone has to pull together to get through it. We are seeing that now in the community!

There seems to be chaos and confusion regarding opening the road to let people and supplies into the Lahaina area. So, an eco-tour non-profit is using one of their boats to ferry stuff in. The harbor is gone so they beached the boat and people came from all over to form a bucket brigade to move propane tanks and other supplies up into town. There are hundreds of stories like this right now.

 

[SecondAttempt]

The speculation is converging on wires and foliage contacting due to the winds.

While I realize that bare wires and foliage can do exactly what the video showed, In Hawaii, at least on the Big Island, all of the distribution lines are insulated precisely for this reason. There really would be no effective way to keep the trees from touching the lines.

Now, I can't say the same for the transmission lines (being insulated) but they are usually much higher and much less likely to be hit by trees.

Not saying you are wrong, just saying that I would want to see a smoking gun for that being the cause in this specific case.

I generally have a very poor opinion of Hawaiian Electric Company for numerous reasons. But they do frequently inspect their lines by helicopter and do a lot of proactive clearing.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Perhaps you have had more chances to see CD in action. I've been fortunate not to experience a hurricane (yet.) But, having said that, I haven't seen a dramatic level of CD in action - but I could be wrong so YMMV.

It may vary by island. Ours on the Big Island gets lots of practice with volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, etc. They are not perfect but they do a pretty good job in my opinion. They respond FAR better than the police and the same seems to be playing out in Maui. Even the chief in Maui the other night said they don't know how to respond to situations like this then the next day they decide that "investigating" and "catching bad guys" is more important than letting people in to help and assess damage.

Well frankly, the police are a huge part of the problem there right now. They are actively preventing help from getting to people there. But fortunately the folks there know they have no authority on the water and are just going around them...apparently with the Coast Guard's blessing.

I don't have an ax to grind promoting civil defense. I'm just saying that I am far more impressed with them than any other government function in Hawaii!

 

[JoeWras]

While I realize that bare wires and foliage can do exactly what the video showed, In Hawaii, at least on the Big Island, all of the distribution lines are insulated precisely for this reason. There really would be no effective way to keep the trees from touching the lines.

Now, I can't say the same for the transmission lines (being insulated) but they are usually much higher and much less likely to be hit by trees.

Not saying you are wrong, just saying that I would want to see a smoking gun for that being the cause in this specific case.

I generally have a very poor opinion of Hawaiian Electric Company for numerous reasons. But they do frequently inspect their lines by helicopter and do a lot of proactive clearing.

Glad to hear they aren't following the California model.

Yeah, it is speculation on speculation.

A discarded cigarette is even more likely.

 

[Koolau]

While I realize that bare wires and foliage can do exactly what the video showed, In Hawaii, at least on the Big Island, all of the distribution lines are insulated precisely for this reason. There really would be no effective way to keep the trees from touching the lines.

Now, I can't say the same for the transmission lines (being insulated) but they are usually much higher and much less likely to be hit by trees.

Not saying you are wrong, just saying that I would want to see a smoking gun for that being the cause in this specific case.

I generally have a very poor opinion of Hawaiian Electric Company for numerous reasons. But they do frequently inspect their lines by helicopter and do a lot of proactive clearing.

Even on Oahu, whenever there are unusually windy conditions (gusts over 40) we lose power intermittently. I've been told that is due to wires touching each other or touching trees.



Just the other night (here on the mainland at the Old Homestead) we had a transformer "blow" in the alley behind us. It took out the power for the block. I was talking to a neighbor who was out getting some lawn furniture in as the wind had picked up. He was almost underneath the transformer when it blew. He was still shaken. Wind was quite high - over 40 I would say.

 

[street]

While I realize that bare wires and foliage can do exactly what the video showed, In Hawaii, at least on the Big Island, all of the distribution lines are insulated precisely for this reason. There really would be no effective way to keep the trees from touching the lines.

Now, I can't say the same for the transmission lines (being insulated) but they are usually much higher and much less likely to be hit by trees.

Not saying you are wrong, just saying that I would want to see a smoking gun for that being the cause in this specific case.

I generally have a very poor opinion of Hawaiian Electric Company for numerous reasons. But they do frequently inspect their lines by helicopter and do a lot of proactive clearing.

I'm assuming when you say distribution lines are insulated you are meaning secondary or wires coming to the home that has been transformed (transformer) for useable power.
Distribution lines are lines that leave a substation and distribute power over an area and go to a transformer that breaks it down to secondary voltage that goes to the home etc.
Distribution and transmission line aren't insulated if they are overhead lines. The transmission lines are the lines coming from generation plants to a substation.

I know most won't agree with me on this but even the best maintenance power supplier things like that can happen. They can check line today and over night a limb breaks and falls unto line, or anything can happen and cause a problem.

Fire is a devastating event no matter there or where when effects lives.

 

[JoeWras]

Our neighborhood thankfully has underground service lines which is from the electric company distribution to home. Older parts of the city have overhead service. These lines are insulated.

Problem is that when trees rub on them, over time they wear off the insulation and that's when the fireworks begin. I only saw this happen one time and it was mesmerizing. It was much less dramatic than the video I posted, but still created some sparks.

 

[Koolau]

Our neighborhood thankfully has underground service lines which is from the electric company distribution to home. Older parts of the city have overhead service. These lines are insulated.

Problem is that when trees rub on them, over time they wear off the insulation and that's when the fireworks begin. I only saw this happen one time and it was mesmerizing. It was much less dramatic than the video I posted, but still created some sparks.

I was driving to w*rk one morning and went through our downtown (probably 6AM.) Some guys were w*rking on something near the base of a power line pole in the gray morning light. Suddenly, there was an almost deafening explosion from a transformer on the pole. The blue light lit up the buildings like a flash bulb. The power lines danced as if they were alive. Suddenly, a transformer down the line also blew with the same stunning noises and light show. Then the next. And then the next. This was all while I was driving more or less under them.



Apparently, no one was hurt and I don't recall the event even making the news. I was so happy to be riding in my Faraday cage!

 

[street]

Our neighborhood thankfully has underground service lines which is from the electric company distribution to home. Older parts of the city have overhead service. These lines are insulated.

Problem is that when trees rub on them, over time they wear off the insulation and that's when the fireworks begin. I only saw this happen one time and it was mesmerizing. It was much less dramatic than the video I posted, but still created some sparks.

Being in the business for over 40 years with open secondary wire that can happen. With the wire (Tri-plex) that has been used for the last 60 years or so rubbing off the insulation could happen but very odds of it starting a spark are very low.

To many variables to many unknowns to actually tell what could of caused the fire at this time.

 

[Ronstar]

We live in a wooded area where storms frequently mutilate trees and knock overhead power lines to the ground. Some tornados take down high tension towers and lines. I haven't seen any fires started from overhead electric lines due to wind around here, but our power pole out at the street caught fire from a lightning strike.

 

[pacergal]

Over 90 souls have perished, and probably the number will go up.
I read they are advising folks to not drink or even shower due to contamination in the water and to completely suit up with masks, etc due to risk of arsenic and asbestos. How long will that last and does it affect other areas of Maui?
I had not heard warnings like that for wildfires around here in the past.