Men: Why is suicide the answer to business losses?

My totally unscientific notion is that more prominent professional men than prominent professional women kill themselves, because there are many more of them.

I'm much more concerned by the recent "rash" of fathers murdering their family members. Does it not seem as if that horror has been on the rise lately? If a man's wife leaves him and his pride can't stand it, why does he have to kill their children, too?

I suspect we will never know the answers to such questions, and thank goodness all the men I've known would rather throw themselves off a bridge than see wife or children harmed.
 
I think we need to wait to see what news Freddie Mac has been inadvertently hiding from the shareholders. The guy's had the job for six months and the winter weather was just about over... so I suspect there's information we haven't heard yet. Reminds me of the Enron exec who took the same permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Hmm... Somehow I think most guys know the reason, but avoid saying it (taboo?)
Here's [-]my reason[/-] what I heard: Men do it because they can't stand the idea of losing their wife/girlfriend/mistress. In stories, love for a man lasts forever, regardless of his financial situation. In life, well, that's another story.
I've personally known three military veterans who committed suicide on active duty:
- Anger/despair over ex-spouse re-opening child custody battle several years after divorce. Subsequent investigation determined that the ex-spouse's allegations were unfounded.
- Protest over the way a CO was treating the submarine crew. Veteran had just been awarded restriction at UCMJ proceedings by that CO. The suicide succeeded in getting the CO relieved a month or two faster than it would have happened anyway. The CO was incompetent but certainly not as bad as the ones who make the headlines.
- Murdered adulterous spouse and then committed suicide when police arrived a few minutes later. Adultery had been in progress for at least two years and spouses had been talking through the situation for at least a year. Murderer ultimately thought this was necessary to salvage personal honor.

Each one of these people was a chief petty officer or a senior E-6 who would have easily been selected for CPO within the next couple years. Each one was a command "Sailor of the Year" on sea duty and two of them were ranked #1 at our training command. Each was a great leader, always ready to lend a hand where needed, skilled at building a team and getting things done. However each had also made detailed plans for "if this happens then I'm going to kill myself" without anyone around them having a clue. Each was also apparently blind to the trauma and disruption they'd cause through their deaths-- both among their shipmates and their families. I'm going to use the word "blind" because I still have trouble believing that they'd be so damn inconsiderate.

Any ideas about picking up on the signs that a guy might take that option?
Studies & statistics indicate that the ones who want help will dangle plenty of danger signs and hints, along with unsuccessful attempts. They'll talk it through and act it out. The ones who want to commit suicide will probably succeed in both executing their plan and in hiding it from you. So if you had no idea then it's probably not your fault and not something you could have reasonably expected to prevent.

And I still have trouble believing that too.
 
The pressure society puts on people is no help.

Everything has to be a competition and 2nd best is never good enough.

I was watching the food channel....it's my Grandma's favorite channel! And you would think that it would be a nice peaceful relaxing shows about cooking food. Well some are but they actually have food competitions now that are totally high stress and totally unnecessary!

I mean you can't even COOK FOOD without a competition.

Also look at how malicious society is. The media just loves to plaster someone all over the tv or papers and totally humiliate them and their family.

Some of the suicides and attempts on suicide are from this garbage. I'll list a few women that were victims since this is mostly about men.

Remember the D.C. madam?

Did she have to be humiliated and die for doing what she did? ...IMO no way!

Look at that girl that was on Nancy Grace that killed herself after feeling betrayed by Nancy Grace.

Do we need to humiliate people on tv to get ratings?

Or look at Casey Anthony's Dad. Can you imaging going through that?

Do we need to have people protesting outside someone's house 24-7?

And also the just horrible malicious things that are done to people just to hurt them. Look at that 13 year old girl that hung herself after an older lady got online and pretended to be a boy interested in her and then told her basically that the world would be better off without her. And after causing this poor girl's death I bet she will suffer no consequences at all.

Is there any need to be that malicious to ANYONE?

If stuff like this changed and society became far far far less malicious and also didn't put the pressure on people that it does I think you would see the suicide numbers come way down.

Jim
 
Are men CONSCIOUS...

No, we're zombies.

Regarding the thread topic, I'd guess that in many cases there's a bunch of unresolved personal problems, and it just seems like an acute financial setback 'causes' someone to commit suicide. In other cases, there's an unresolved 'hardware' problem, such as chronic depression. :(
 
Are men CONSCIOUS of how difficult society has made it for them I wonder?

Some are, one would imagine. As for the pressures society puts on men, if you have never been the sole breadwinner for a family, I can't explain the sense of urgency that stays just below the surface until you lose your livelihood, upon which time it is full-blown panic or nearly so.

Why do men commit suicide so much more often than women? Society puts pressure on both sexes (although admittedly different ones). But men are driven by biology and society towards concrete action and failing to produce results doesn't stop the drive toward action of some sort. And what is the ratio of men to women at any firing range you have ever been to? The tendency of men toward concrete problem solving (how do I kill myself with certainty?) no doubt ups the odds as well.
 
Come on, socca, you took that "Are men conscious" out of context. Play fair at least.
There are alot of societal expectations that are placed on women. Act like a lady, don't be too loud, keep your legs together when you sit, be nurturing and kind, etc. etc. The female that doesn't conform is criticized. Same thing that happens with men who don't conform to the norm.
It just seems to me that there is MORE pressure to conform on men than women. Heck, I've broken every "rule" about acting like a lady at one time or another, but being a woman we can get away with it better than a man can it seems.
I think men get a raw deal often in life. Too much pressure to conform? Maybe, depending on the person's wiring, it is, and they just can't tolerate the pressure.
Brewer brings up an interesting point: what is the ratio of men to women at a firing range. When I have been at one I've always been the only woman to the point other men walk up and ask me what I'm doing there. Does that answer anything? And this was in Texas where you expect more women to shoot. But I do know more than one feminine/straight/in fact, sexy gal in Houston who exercised her right-to-carry.
(I also have been the only woman who brought her young son to professional boxing matches in Houston, and guys would actually lean over and ask me if I really liked boxing. I do.)
It just seems men have so many more "rules" about how they must conduct themselves than we women do. Unfair situation for you men, really. I wish I had the answers.
 
Hmm... Somehow I think most guys know the reason, but avoid saying it (taboo?)

Here's [-]my reason[/-] what I heard: Men do it because they can't stand the idea of losing their wife/girlfriend/mistress. In stories, love for a man lasts forever, regardless of his financial situation. In life, well, that's another story.

Spot on, IMO, whether it is a conscious realization or not. What happens to formerly good providers who lose their ability to bring home the proverbial bacon? Frequently not a happy marital outcome.
 
Are men more sensitive than women then? I don't have one girlfriend ever even threaten to kill themselves over some guy they were in love with. Depressed and sobbing, yes, but suicidal really? No. Just my experience.
Maybe what they say about men is true after all: men are more romantic and sensitive than women. Who knew that was really true? What a little eye-opener this is. I appreciate your honesty about this subject. Thanks.
 
I think women probably have an easier time admitting they are suffering from depression and seeking medical help. This is just a guess, but I would think that for men they would feel there is a bit of a "stigma" of admitting they are not able to cope, they are more likely to feel inadequate if they take medication or seek assistance.

I know of two friends who have each had a sibling commit suicide. In both instances it was a brother, both had been depressed and made attempts before succeeding. The fallout from these suicides is awful, I see what my friends and their families go through, and how each of them is destroyed in their own way as they shoulder the blame for what happened.
 
Bottom line is that men have a lot of problems and stress in their lives but there is no real effort to help them.

Jim

Indeed. Men and boys face enormous problems, and society looks the other way. Suicide, secondary school drop out rates, illiteracy, homelessness, college enrollment, male-only-draft, family court, reproductive freedom, incarceration rates, work place fatalities, funding for health care, violent victimizations, the justice system, longevity, drug abuse, domestic violence, discriminatory laws, incarceration rates, and the list goes on.

I used to track the (lack of) focus about men by my employer. In my organizations weekly newspaper, from 1995 to 2005, there were 479 articles specific to women or women's issues, compared to 6 articles specific to men or men's issues. In its online version, the ratio was 378 to 6. In the same online version, from 1996 to 1999, the word "woman" or "women" appeared 256 times. The word "man" or "men" appeared 17 times (and 12 of these were in the phrase "men and women" or "women and men"). My employer announced and funded a "Women's Health Initiative." It was announced during men's health awareness week (bonus points to anyone who can tell me when men's health awareness week is - heck, bonus points to anyone who even knows that there is a men's health awareness week). I have a long list of these things.

Point is. My employer is no different than society as a whole. While there are many factors contributing to the disproportionate number of men who commit suicide, the bottom line is that society doesn't care.

It's why there are 5 government-funded offices on women's health, but 0 offices on men's health. Bipartisan legislation to establish an office of men's health has always failed.

According to society, we need to focus our attention on women and girls because men are 4 times more likely to commit suicide; men are 90-95% more likely to die in workplace accidents; men live 6-7 years less than women; funding for prostate cancer research is 20% that of breast cancer research even though both are about as deadly; men receive harsher sentences for similar crimes (e.g., men who murder are 10 times more likely to receive the death penalty than women who murder); boys are now about 40% of college students (even though demographically there are more boys of college age than girls); men are 2.5 times more likely to be victims of violent crime (but we have a multi-billion dollar "Violence Against Women's Act"); boys/men dominate in homelessness, drug addiction, and illiteracy; 99.98% of the 55,000 American soldiers who died in Vietnam were men, but we have a dedicated women's memorial honoring the "special sacrifice" made by women; and so on.

That is why men are more likely to commit suicide than women. Society doesn't care about men.

But I'm optimistic. Perhaps Obama's newly established "White House Council on Women and Girls" will rectify some of these problems. Maybe the new administration can get the percentage of male college students down to 25%-30% where it belongs.
 
I'm much more concerned by the recent "rash" of fathers murdering their family members. Does it not seem as if that horror has been on the rise lately? If a man's wife leaves him and his pride can't stand it, why does he have to kill their children, too?

While your comments are well taken, contrary to popular myth, mothers are more likely to kill their children than fathers. But when mothers kill, we make excuses (there's often a man to blame somewhere). When fathers kill, well, men are just bad.
 
Maybe what they say about men is true after all: men are more romantic and sensitive than women.

This doesn't jive with my experience. After all, considering the entire animal spectrum, sperm-carriers often (but not always) have much less invested in a relationship than egg-carriers.

Regarding the above 'zombie' quote, I was referring to the large number of personal ads placed by women looking for a man who is 'conscious', implying (accurately, IMHO) that the majority of men aren't. :LOL:
 
Point is. My employer is no different than society as a whole. While there are many factors contributing to the disproportionate number of men who commit suicide, the bottom line is that society doesn't care.


That is why men are more likely to commit suicide than women. Society doesn't care about men.

But I'm optimistic. Perhaps Obama's newly established "White House Council on Women and Girls" will rectify some of these problems. Maybe the new administration can get the percentage of male college students down to 25%-30% where it belongs.

There's a surreal irony to your comments -- aren't we men, for the most part, in control of society? Let me add this notion of suicide, when based on clinical depression, it's generally the act of a very disturbed mind that has placed his self-interest above everything else -- it's not an act of compassion as it leaves the survivors in shambles and in the long run might be the most destructive thing one can do to loved ones.

Also, I think we have to really refine the definition of suicide if one is going to compare the reasons for why men take their own lives more than women in our society. There are "homicide-suicides" which seem to be in a class by themselves as opposed to the solitary acts of suicide and there are "suicides" that are really acts of rational thinking and mentally adjusted people like those who engage in euthanasia.
 
Some are, one would imagine. As for the pressures society puts on men, if you have never been the sole breadwinner for a family, I can't explain the sense of urgency that stays just below the surface until you lose your livelihood, upon which time it is full-blown panic or nearly so.
+1
This mind side is ingrained in men from the start and it applies even if they are not the primary breadwinner. Men are much more likely to feel unable to leave a toxic work situation without a clear alternative job. Our self worth is tied in with being or being able to be the breadwinner.

I can easily understand that, uddenly tossed on the unemployment pile, many guys can succumb to a total loss of self worth. I imagine this is worse for a middle aged guy who was already burning out and saw FIRE on the horizon but suddenly has that snatched away. The future looks hopeless and suicide looks like a good way out.
 
I find Shawn's long post about the company's articles and the difference between the use of men and women...

My old company (before the new CEO etc.) had recognized that 'men', and more specifically 'white men' were not represented by anyone... so they decided to correct this and assigned this duty to a woman executive... who already had a full plate but was expected to do this on the side...

Nothing ever happened with this and it died when management changed... I just thought it ironic that a woman was put in that spot...
 
Regarding the above 'zombie' quote, I was referring to the large number of personal ads placed by women looking for a man who is 'conscious', implying (accurately, IMHO) that the majority of men aren't. :LOL:

Well, if all they are looking for is consciousness for 15 hours a day, I fit the bill.

BTW, I know Shawn's stats may sound "ugly", but they are true. The lack of focus on men's issues in this country is pervasive enough that when someone merely brings up easily verifiable stats without even putting too big a political spin on the issue, it can seem like a diatribe.
 
More female poets appear to committ suicide than male poets. Is that because there are more female poets than male poets? I read the obituary of Deborah Digges, the latest suicide among poets, and it just seemed she lost the will to live after her husband's death. And her act of suicide was not the "typical" method of choice for women.

Clinical depression can cause suicide. (BTW, The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression, is a riveting study of depression with its linkeage to suicide.)

OMG. I knew her, long ago. What horrible news. I can't believe it.

Suicide among women is usually linked to loss of a relationship. Among men, loss of self image, self esteem. Clinical depression is sometimes a factor but often these suicides have a good reason to be depressed and if the life factor wasn't present they wouldn't be depressed, at least not to the extent of being suicidal. As far as the pressures on men vs women. I have no idea what that's like for men and men have no idea what the pressures on women feel like. That's all I know.
 
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Regarding the above 'zombie' quote, I was referring to the large number of personal ads placed by women looking for a man who is 'conscious', implying (accurately, IMHO) that the majority of men aren't. :LOL:

Or perhaps the conscious ones are most of us who are not interested in putting up with BS from impossible to please women who care not a whit about us.
 
Ok fellas, just relax....I have a glass of wine in my hand (see avatar), I'll share. :)
 
Are men more sensitive than women then? I don't have one girlfriend ever even threaten to kill themselves over some guy they were in love with. Depressed and sobbing, yes, but suicidal really? No. Just my experience.
Maybe what they say about men is true after all: men are more romantic and sensitive than women. Who knew that was really true? What a little eye-opener this is. I appreciate your honesty about this subject. Thanks.


Well, I don't know the answer to your question. Perhaps the American male is not as romantic as the male from other countries. That can be the subject of another thread.

But I couldn't resist this. This is the perfect excuse for me to post the song "Mourir d'aimer" ("To die of love") from Charles Aznavour. I have included the French, English, Spanish and also Italian versions of this song.

In case you have not heard of Aznavour, following is an excerpt from Wikipedia.


Charles Aznavour, OC (Armenian: Շառլ Ազնաւուր; born Shahnour Varenagh Aznavourian (Շահնուր Վաղինակ Ազնաւուրեան)[1], May 22, 1924, Paris) is an Armenian-French singer, songwriter, actor and public activist. Besides being one of France's most popular and enduring singers, he is also one of the most well-known singers in the world. He is known for his characteristic short figure and unique tenor[2] voice; clear and ringing in its upper reaches, with gravely and profound low notes. He has appeared in more than 60 movies, composed about 1,000 songs (including at least 150 in English, 100 in Italian, 70 in Spanish, and 50 in German[3]), and sold well over 100 million records.[4]

In 1998, Charles Aznavour was chosen as Entertainer of the Century by CNN and users of Time Online from around the globe. He was recognized as the century's outstanding performer, with nearly 18% of the total vote, edging out Elvis Presley and Bob Dylan.

YouTube - Charles Aznavour - To Die Of Love ( Mourir D' Aimer )

YouTube - Charles Aznavour - Mourir d'aimer

YouTube - Charles Aznavour - Morir de amor

YouTube - Charles Aznavour - Morire d'amore
 
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