My reason for urgently needing a HELOC

[easysurfer]

So, what's wrong with that? It keeps the discussion brief and to the point.

Yes, "You bad no good gambler!". "Shame on you!".

What's more to say?

PS. I wonder what SIL would have said. "I like gamble. Gamble is fun. I can make lots of money"?

Fuego,

So, during the translation did it go something like...

Your DW: My husband is a great person. He is a "Champ"

Your SIL: Yes, I know..he is. He's a..a..real."Chump"

I'm just kidding. From what you've described, I see that despite you're SIL's addiction, you still see things in a positive light.

I do try to keep that in mind though...only one letter is the difference between Champ and Chump.

 

[NW-Bound]

You offering to be the bookmaker on this one?

Hmm... Shouldn't a mod be the bookmaker? Or someone who has posted his/her picture so that we would know who to track down if he/she skips town? Someone like T-Al or Ha?

And then, we have to rely on Fuego to report on the events. Even if he does not cheat, is his interpretation reliable? Remember that he speaks no Laotian.

 

[Texas Proud]

Hmm... Shouldn't a mod be the bookmaker? Or someone who has posted his/her picture so that we would know who to track down if he/she skips town? Someone like T-Al or Ha?

And then, we have to rely on Fuego to report on the events. Even if he does not cheat, is his interpretation reliable? Remember that he speaks no Laotian.

Not only that... but does a LONG argument count as one long one or many small ones

 

[NW-Bound]

I'll lay you 3:1 odds that it will be tense, 2:1 odds that it will be strained and even money that it will be just OK.

How about giving me an over/under on number of loud arguments I will hear re: gambling. 3.5? 4? I might take the over, and stir up some troubles myself.

Not only that... but does a LONG argument count as one long one or many small ones

You are right! In re-reading these posts, it became obvious that these bets were ill-defined and structurally flawed.

Awww... What if? Just maybe?

Could it be that Westernskies and Fuego were scheming to collect our bets?

Nope. I am keeping my money.

 

[Westernskies]

Could it be that Westernskies and Fuego were scheming to collect our bets?

Step right up! Everyone's a winner!

 

[clifp]

I have suggested to SIL that she renegotiate the terms of this debt. Tell them that she can't pay them any interest or even all the principal right now. There is nothing left. That saves her money, and gives her a black eye credit-wise with her fellow gamblers, so she is done gambling there. But she does not consider that an option. Which worries me. She doesn't want to lose her ability to gamble and borrow more.

Giving her bad credit with other gamblers was a big motivating factor in my decision to NOT giver her any money right now.

I know that you suggested to your SIL that she renegotiate the loans. The fact that she won't obviously means she isn't ready to stop gambling. Something which there seems to be universal recognition of.

My suggestion is way different. Your BIL - her husbands needs to negotiate directly with the people THEY owe money to. Your SIL is the problem not any way part of the solution. It is nice that he is your ally in this but as condition of you loaning money to THEM (and I realize he said don't give her the money), he needs to be more actively involved.

 

[SecondCor521]

So wait, all I have to do is dangle this carrot in front of her, and as long as I keep the carrot hanging there, she won't gamble to convince me that she won't gamble? That is basically what I plan on doing for a while. I doubt I will feel comfortable in six weeks to give her the money. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. It is a subjective decision. Maybe she'll find some other mark to extend her a mark.

If all it takes is me saying "not this month, you aren't ready, come back next month" to make her stop gambling, then I can do that!

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

What I meant was that from reading this thread, I am guessing that your SIL is guessing that if she either (a) stays clean or (b) appears to stay clean for six weeks, she can possibly convince you to "loan" her the $10.3K, at which point in her mind her troubles will be out of her way for a while, and she may feel like she can gamble some more at that point. Or maybe she borrows your $10.3K six weeks from now and tries to use it to gamble and win back enough money to pay back that plus the $12K.

I guess what I am saying is that addictions are incredibly powerful things and they can have a really resilient hold on people. If it were my $10.3K, it'd be longer than 6 weeks. But then I can talk tough, it isn't my SIL. Perhaps an idea for you to consider -- for every month she stays clean, you pay $1K directly to her debtors. After the debt to her debtors is paid off, she pays you $500 per month and you forgive $500 per month. Or something like that.

2Cor521

 

[Charlotte]

... If it were my $10.3K, it'd be longer than 6 weeks.
2Cor521

What he said... 6 weeks is not evidence of true change and commitment to breaking away from gambling. Frankly, I'm not sure 6 months is. I think I'm more in the realm of believing after two or three years. At present I would not lend/give money and I would immediately change my will to remove her as the intended guardian of my children. Best of luck...

Charlotte

 

[huusom]

The Asian community here isn't very large, but I know a lot of them have less than noble values and morals. Mostly just playing fast and loose with taxes, insurance fraud, under the table deals, etc. As far as I know, most of the hard core gangs aren't active in the community here. It is nothing like what DW's cousins experience in Long Beach, California. Definitely a different story there.

Your statement shows how stupid and ignorance you're about the Asians. I'm Asian and I know most of my friends and families are hard working and honest people. We, as a small percentage of the general population, do like to gamble for entertainment and to spend our hard-earned money. bars. So what is wrong with that? Where do you get your fact about the insurance frauds, under the table deals? Is there a some kind of study to prove that Asians commit more of these type of crimes than caucasian, black or hispanic?

 

[Sesq]

Fascinating read. Sorry to hear the troubles.

 

[FUEGO]

Your statement shows how stupid and ignorance you're about the Asians. I'm Asian and I know most of my friends and families are hard working and honest people. We, as a small percentage of the general population, do like to gamble for entertainment and to spend our hard-earned money. bars. So what is wrong with that? Where do you get your fact about the insurance frauds, under the table deals? Is there a some kind of study to prove that Asians commit more of these type of crimes than caucasian, black or hispanic?

I said "the Asian community here isn't very large". I was making generalizations about a particular community of people from two or three SE Asian countries that reside in my area (more than a few on my street actually), a number of which I know directly, and many more I hear about second hand. I'm not trying to make generalizations or stereotype across other Asian communities in other cities or other non SE Asian communities in my city or other cities. I don't know about these other communities.

Hey, if you like to gamble and go to bars, that is fine!

Regarding insurance fraud and under the table deals, I know of or hear about these things. I have no idea if the proportion of illegal activity is higher per capita among this particular community to which I am referring. But I have to assume so, since it is pervasive.

There are a lot of cash businesses. Nail salons are one. Customers are encouraged to pay in cash or that is the only method of payment accepted. Employees are paid partially or totally in cash. Tips go unreported. All expenses are kept track of on paper, but most cash receipts for services are not. The end result is a business owner that pays no taxes. Let's just say the construction biz is no different. Cash receipts never hit the books but any expenses incurred on the cash jobs do hit the books, hence lowering taxable income.

Regarding insurance fraud, too many examples to get into. From lying on the applications for life or health insurance (yeah, we don't smoke or drink wink wink nod nod now pass me my cigs and that hennessey). To fraudulent claims on health insurance, home insurance, or auto insurance. Also mortgage fraud - as in "yes I intend to reside in this house as my primary residence" and then they say that 5-6 times while getting no doc liar loans on "primary residences" that are really intended to be rental properties. The mortgage fraud has pretty much dried up recently though.

I'm not saying every person in this community is involved. Maybe not even 1/2 the people. But a significant proportion have no problem bending the truth. I assume they view it as victimless crime since only the insurance companies and the government get cheated. All of this is just my take on things in "the community" and I admit that I am somewhat of an outsider. But some of the things I hear disgust me. Is it stereotyping when I make this generality regarding 200-300 people in the community here in my city? Maybe so.

 

[huusom]

I said "the Asian community here isn't very large". I was making generalizations about a particular community of people from two or three SE Asian countries that reside in my area (more than a few on my street actually), a number of which I know directly, and many more I hear about second hand. I'm not trying to make generalizations or stereotype across other Asian communities in other cities or other non SE Asian communities in my city or other cities. I don't know about these other communities.

Hey, if you like to gamble and go to bars, that is fine!

Regarding insurance fraud and under the table deals, I know of or hear about these things. I have no idea if the proportion of illegal activity is higher per capita among this particular community to which I am referring. But I have to assume so, since it is pervasive.

There are a lot of cash businesses. Nail salons are one. Customers are encouraged to pay in cash or that is the only method of payment accepted. Employees are paid partially or totally in cash. Tips go unreported. All expenses are kept track of on paper, but most cash receipts for services are not. The end result is a business owner that pays no taxes. Let's just say the construction biz is no different. Cash receipts never hit the books but any expenses incurred on the cash jobs do hit the books, hence lowering taxable income.

Regarding insurance fraud, too many examples to get into. From lying on the applications for life or health insurance (yeah, we don't smoke or drink wink wink nod nod now pass me my cigs and that hennessey). To fraudulent claims on health insurance, home insurance, or auto insurance. Also mortgage fraud - as in "yes I intend to reside in this house as my primary residence" and then they say that 5-6 times while getting no doc liar loans on "primary residences" that are really intended to be rental properties. The mortgage fraud has pretty much dried up recently though.

I'm not saying every person in this community is involved. Maybe not even 1/2 the people. But a significant proportion have no problem bending the truth. I assume they view it as victimless crime since only the insurance companies and the government get cheated. All of this is just my take on things in "the community" and I admit that I am somewhat of an outsider. But some of the things I hear disgust me. Is it stereotyping when I make this generality regarding 200-300 people in the community here in my city? Maybe so.

Nail salon is not the only cash business around. Convenience stores, construction businesses, restaurants, etc. they can all under report their incomes. The biggest crooks are those in wall streets and big businesses and they happened to be run by caucasians. But I don't want to make any assumption that most caucasians are big crooks.

 

[NW-Bound]

... insurance fraud and under the table deals... Employees are paid partially or totally in cash. Tips go unreported... fraudulent claims on health insurance, home insurance, or auto insurance... mortgage fraud... 200-300 people in the community...

Hmm... Interesting... Can we have an address or even a Zip Code?

Or can the IRS, FBI, or insurance investigators find out what they need from an IP address?

 

[FUEGO]

Hmm... Interesting... Can we have an address or even a Zip Code?

Or can the IRS, FBI, or insurance investigators find out what they need from an IP address?

I think I have posted here about taking the IRS up on that 10-15% finder's fee for tax fraud. I'm still not sure how to monetarily value my kneecaps should word get back to these crooked folks who the rat is.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Fuego, thanks for clarifying your meaning; it's good to make it clear you're not painting all Asians with the same brush (that would have to be one huge brush that would go across many different cultures), but more your perception of the folks your DW's family knows.

 

[FUEGO]

Fuego, thanks for clarifying your meaning; it's good to make it clear you're not painting all Asians with the same brush (that would have to be one huge brush that would go across many different cultures), but more your perception of the folks your DW's family knows.

I may not be an expert on "Asians", but I know enough to know that you can't even group Asians together really. Each country has their own language and culture, and frequently each country has a few languages and cultures or dozens of languages and cultures.

It looks like huusom is Vietnamese. For whatever reason, there are not very many Vietnamese in the local community (other than BIL). So I have very little to do with Vietnamese people and culture, other than my BIL and what little I hear about his estranged adoptive siblings and adoptive parents who live in town. Although there has been serious gambling problems in his adoptive family too. But I honestly can't think of any more vietnamese people I know or know of here locally other than BIL and his family.

 

[NW-Bound]

Any ethnic group has some pockets with problems. Mafia, anyone?

Of course, I would think Fuego has tried to use his influence to keep his in-laws from getting too involved with this group. To think that his SIL borrowed money from them to gamble...

How many kneecaps in your family, Fuego? You have two little kids, right?

 

[Nords]

Your statement shows how stupid and ignorance you're about the Asians. I'm Asian and I know most of my friends and families are hard working and honest people. We, as a small percentage of the general population, do like to gamble for entertainment and to spend our hard-earned money. bars. So what is wrong with that? Where do you get your fact about the insurance frauds, under the table deals? Is there a some kind of study to prove that Asians commit more of these type of crimes than caucasian, black or hispanic?

I interpreted Fuego's original comment:

The Asian community here isn't very large, but I know a lot of them have less than noble values and morals.

where the "them" word refers to the people he knows in this small Asian community. I did not interpret his use of the word "them" to refer to Asians in general.

Nail salon is not the only cash business around. Convenience stores, construction businesses, restaurants, etc. they can all under report their incomes. The biggest crooks are those in wall streets and big businesses and they happened to be run by caucasians. But I don't want to make any assumption that most caucasians are big crooks.

This thread has managed to remain amazingly civil. Your use of pejoratives and ad hominem attacks like "stupid" and "ignorance" in response to a perceived offense does little to enhance the quality of your defense of your position.

As for gambling, bars, insurance fraud, and under-the-table deals... I suspect that's not a racial demographic.

I also don't agree that Wall Street and big business are "run by Caucasians". Plenty of exceptions to sweeping generalities.

 

[Leonidas]

Any ethnic group has some pockets with problems. Mafia, anyone?

Absolutely, but when we choose to do crime with accomplices it turns out a lot like when we go to church, and everybody knows that Sunday mornings are very self-segregated at the church houses. Look at the exercise yard in most any prison, every race has their little area that they have staked out as their exclusive territory.

No one racial or ethnic group is more criminally inclined than the other because of some genetic factor. Neither is any one group genetically more inclined to do a particular type of crime. But as diverse and open as American society is, we still tend to group together with people that look and act like us for some activities. Crime is definitely one such activity.

So, when criminals do crimes with people they feel comfortable with for cultural and societal reasons, you wind up with certain types of crimes being more prevalent in some groups and less prevalent in others.

The effect is even more pronounced in immigrant communities because their criminals tend to stick with their own kind for selection of victims as well.

 

[Achiever51]

Fuego,
I really feel bad for your situation. While your SIL is the center of the problem, you've already described in some detail how her actions are negatively impacting the entire family. It's one thing when her husband confronts her, it's heartbreaking to read that her own child is taking her to task.

While I sense that the entire family is concerned, I also sense that there is a lot of enabling going on. And while everyone wants her to change, from reading your posts, I get the strong feeling that your SIL really doesn't think she's in trouble, doesn't think that she's an addict, and that her problem is a temporary one.

Your BIL knows what's going on. He knows she is in deep trouble; he's very aware that she is indeed an addict and he is preparing himself for the next step(s) because he knows that this problem won't go away...even if the debt(s) are repaid.

It is particularly sad to read that your in-laws are willing to jeopardize their own future, and that you are being encouraged to take out a loan to help out, because the reality is in all likelihood your SIL will not change. Not without first admitting that she does have a problem and that she needs professional help....and then follows up in a serious manner.

I come from a family that has had its share of alcoholics, drug users and gamblers. It hasn't been pretty. One of my favorite aunts (a wonderful lady when sober, but a lifelong alcoholic who claimed to be a social drinker, but who would disappear for days when on a bender) was found frozen in a trunk in the late 60s, her murder is unsolved. My DH's nephew, who "borrowed" $$ from many in the family, denied having a gambling problem for years, always claiming that he was one hand away from redemption. He only hit bottom after the family "loans" stopped, and he no longer was welcomed into our homes (where he was ripping off anything he could pawn). He found himself on the wrong side of the law and ended up in jail. This stuff happens in real life; it is not a made for TV movie!

Fuego, I hope your SIL faces and overcomes her addiction. The odds are really not in her favor. But for your own family's sake, please do not allow yourselves to be pulled down with her. As has been pointed out by others, addicts (and that's what your SIL is) are skillful liars. They are very good at hiding their addictions from family members and they will say/do whatever they must to keep up with their addictions. Saying "no" to a family member/addict is one of the hardest things you will ever have to do, but believe me, you are doing her no favor by giving in. And from your own admission, you are giving in...you are just trying to rationalize it.

Good luck.

 

[huusom]

I interpreted Fuego's original comment:

This thread has managed to remain amazingly civil. Your use of pejoratives and ad hominem attacks like "stupid" and "ignorance" in response to a perceived offense does little to enhance the quality of your defense of your position.

As for gambling, bars, insurance fraud, and under-the-table deals... I suspect that's not a racial demographic.

I also don't agree that Wall Street and big business are "run by Caucasians". Plenty of exceptions to sweeping generalities.

Agreed, I shouldnt have use the "STUPID" word. That said, there is nothing civil about calling the majority of an ethnic group (even a small group) "low moral". It's just wrong. I'm not sure how many of those few hundred Asians he/she (Fuego) personally knows?. As for the Wall Street frauds, it's a well known fact. The point I was trying to make is the fact that most (not all) big Wall Street firms are run by caucasians but we should not assumpt that all caucasians are crooks because of a few bad apples.

 

[Nords]

Agreed, I shouldnt have use the "STUPID" word. That said, there is nothing civil about calling the majority of an ethnic group (even a small group) "low moral". It's just wrong. I'm not sure how many of those few hundred Asians he/she (Fuego) personally knows?.

I'm just sayin' that I think he's referring to the individuals and their behavior in making his conclusion, and that I think his conclusion has nothing to do with their ethnicity.

You don't know these people, I don't know these people. He may not know them either, but after reading a few thousand of his posts I think it's unlikely that he's resorting to racial profiling. I'm willing to cut him a break in a difficult situation.

As for the Wall Street frauds, it's a well known fact. The point I was trying to make is the fact that most (not all) big Wall Street firms are run by caucasians but we should not assumpt that all caucasians are crooks because of a few bad apples.

Once again I'm just pointing out that fraud is an equal-opportunity exploiter and has little or nothing to do with demographics.

Kinda ironic that you use the word "caucasians", because I'm of the opinion that very few of them think of themselves that way. WASPs, Catholics, Christians, Jews, Ivy Leaguers, Eastern European, Central Europeans, Russians, Southerners, Midwesterners, Texans, Westerners... but probably not caucasians.

... just like Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese, Thais, Koreans, and Japanese feel the pride of their own identities.

Perhaps it's a little more straightforward on these islands where no one demographic of anything is a majority.

Except maybe surfers. But just longboarders, and definitely not boogie-boarders.

 

[FUEGO]

Agreed, I shouldnt have use the "STUPID" word. That said, there is nothing civil about calling the majority of an ethnic group (even a small group) "low moral". It's just wrong. I'm not sure how many of those few hundred Asians he/she (Fuego) personally knows?

Let me reiterate, I am not familiar with most Asian populations in America, or even most Asian populations in my own city. But I know quite a bit about the Cambodian and Laotian community in my city. The old joke "they all know each other" is quite true. They all know each other. We go shopping at one of the 4-5 local asian grocers, and they know who we are, we know who they are. They show up to the parties DW's family goes to (or throws themselves). Some of DW's family works for some of their family at some other business. People know each other - it is a highly integrated, close knit community of people, just not really huge in this area. So I either know these people, or hear about them second hand from someone who knows or is acquainted with them. That's not to say I have done a demographic study or anything scientific. But the US Census isn't going to reveal the depth of knowledge that I have regarding THIS SPECIFIC COMMUNITY OF ASIANS IN MY CITY.

Without a doubt, there are plenty of upstanding members of this specific community. But in general, the typical person from this community has a different set of values versus what I observe among members of the middle and upper middle class that I am exposed to elsewhere.

Is it racist if I were to say "I have experience with the inner city public housing residents of a particular city in which I live and I am intimately familiar with this community. This community is comprised almost exclusively of a certain single racial composition (X race), and drug abuse, violent crime, gang warfare, etc etc are commonplace and the perpetrators of these crimes are placed on a pedestal for their actions. Thus is the way of life in this community of X race people. The X race community here isn't very large, but I know a lot of them have less than noble values and morals."

Edit to add: I looked for US Census data by zip code or city, and can't find how many Laotians and Cambodians there are in my area. If we have an average concentration of them based on the overall US population, there would be under 1000 here. My guess is areas closer to Asia (ie west coast like CA, WA and OR) has a higher proportion, and my east coast city has a lower proportion of Laotians and Cambodians. Hence, I may know or know of over 1/2 of all the people from these national origins in my area. I would suggest that at some point when the sample size starts to approach the entire population size, you can start to see trends that develop (morals, values, etc) that you can infer across the whole population with some degree of accuracy. To refuse to draw conclusions in the face of lots of data of this type just seems ridiculous. So call me a racist if you want, if that is what my attention to reality is. Since you don't personally know or know of all members of all Asian communities, let alone very many of my particular asian community, I would suggest to you that I have a better grasp of the generalities of this particular asian community with which I am very familiar.

 

[Westernskies]

I think I have posted here about taking the IRS up on that 10-15% finder's fee for tax fraud. I'm still not sure how to monetarily value my kneecaps should word get back to these crooked folks who the rat is.

$10,300 /.15= $68,666...

Should be able to find that much unreported taxes on winnings in SIL's poker group...

 

[NW-Bound]

But, but, but...

$10,300 - 4 wheelchairs = ?