Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV)

[bloom2708]

The 2023 Corolla Hybrid comes in an AWD version and starts at $25k. Not a plug in, but has me tempted.

 

[Koolau]

My concern is "you know who" is trying to transition to zero carbon too quickly and considering little has been done to upgrade power generation capabilities across the country and the electrical grid, they are putting the cart before the horse with the EV transition push and it just seems like a recipe for disaster. A little common sense could go a long way.

Heh, heh, you sorta deleted my deletion! Is that bacon I smell?

 

[Katsmeow]

At one time I was big on the PHEV and thought it was the best of both worlds. That is, it gave comfortable range and gas backup while letting you be purely electric most of the time.

I am generally a believer as Koolau says of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. But, I also recall something about too little, too late and half measures...

I am not in any way trying to discourage the OP from getting a PHEV. I fully understand the appeal. But, I've decided to just keep a gas vehicle until I feel fully comfortable with the range of a fully electric vehicle.

This isn't because I think PHEV's are "bad". I do think they are better than purely gas vehicles (by and large), but are inferior to purely electric vehicles. My objection is more practical. I believe that in the not so distant future PHEV's will not exist. They are a purely short term transitional crutch. I feel that for me, the time period they would have been good for has already passed. The world is moving on to an electric future. So, for the short term, a PHEV might make sense but longer term, no so much.

 

[RetMD21]

.......That's a very good point. The PHEV will save on gas consumption on average if you make a lot of short trips that run mostly on battery, but once you are out of the shorter PHEV range, you are dragging around a larger/heavier battery/motor than if you had a non-plug-in hybrid, and that hurts the gas-only-mode mpg.


So for short trips, the "EV" part of the PHEV is dragging around an ICE and transmission, and for short trips, the "ICE" part of the PHEV is dragging around a battery, motor and controllers. There is a 'sweet spot' where they make good sense though.....

Our local driving is in the 40 mile or less range with trips of 200-300 miles once or twice a month. The current Toyota PHEVs would work well for us but the word is that the next generation will have a 200 km range which moves the sweet spot. I noticed that the price differential for the Prius PHEV is larger in 2023 reflecting the switch from 8.8 KWh battery to 13.6.

 

[explanade]

I did look for the RAV4 Prime last year but dealers were putting ridiculous markup on them.

One reason is Toyota allocated like only 5000 for all of the US in 2021 or 2022.

Toyota has been dragging their feet on EV because they have such huge supply chain investments on ICE, which will be their main sales for at least a decade.

Supposedly tHey made a change in strategy recently.

I haven’t driven more than 60-70 miles from home in years. Most of tHe long drives I do is on overseas trips.

Do have a bunch of bucket list trips I could do but I book to go overseas instead.

So I would probably be okay with EV and then maybe once or twice, I would figure out the charger network or borrow or rent an ICE.

 

[Chuckanut]

Toyota says it can make six PHEVs rather than one full EV with the available scarce resources is has available (nickel, lithium, rare earths, cobalt, etc.).
And 90 regular hybrids with the same scarce materials needed for one full EV.

 

[Koolau]

Toyota says it can make six PHEVs rather than one full EV with the available scarce resources is has available (nickel, lithium, rare earths, cobalt, etc.).
And 90 regular hybrids with the same scarce materials needed for one full EV.

That really puts things into perspective.

I wish there were a way to calculate how effective each type of car is at reducing cradle-to-grave fuel usage, total carbon dioxide, electricity, rare elements, etc. I know the gummint wants us all to drive EVs, but I wonder if the gummint has ever actually looked at the big picture. I like to think in terms of "what we're trying to accomplish" and THEN choosing the best way to achieve it rather than deciding the solution without really considering the options.

 

[2018]

We have a duel strategy for EV use. I have a 2019 PHEV Chevy Volt which is used for our daily driving around town. It provides 50+ mile on electric and another 350+ on gas when needed. We have found it doesn't work well for long distance as we cruise around 75-80mph when driving long distance and like most hybrids it strains on highway cruising at that speed.



So, we just added a 2023 Honda CR-V Sport AWD hybrid which provide ~ 36MPG highway, and about 40MPG city (our actual numbers). This is our travel car now as it's super quiet, smooth ride, and good MPG. We looked at the Rav4 Hyrbid, but we're Honda people and the CR-V was a simpler choice for us. No need to plug in and it just works well.

 

[JohnnyBGoode]

I have a 2022 Toyota Prime Rav4 (18-month wait at the local dealer because they were one of the few that don't charge more than MSRP). I will say it is a fantastic vehicle. My EV range is up to 48 miles and when the tank is full, my overall possible range in the car is well over 500 miles.

I've had it for almost a year and filled up (never more than a half tank) less than 6 times. That being said, I've assumed this is a transition vehicle. I plan on probably 4-5 years and then will trade it in on a fully electric small SUV. I figure by then they will be commonplace and charging will be ubiquitous. Because I held out for MSRP I could probably still sell it for close to what I paid. Crazy times.

 

[davidfin]

I like the whole idea of the PHEV. Most of my daily travel is less than 20 to 25 miles. 90% of the time I could make the battery ALONE work. Then the option to travel long distances without having to delay journey for who knows how long to get recharged on an EV.

 

[ARW44]

If you are primarily concerned with economics, you must address the cost of fuel for the PHEV-- the electricity-- when in electric mode. If you pay $0.15/kwh or so for electricity, like we do in California, the fuel cost while running on electricity will compete with the fuel cost of running on gasoline. This becomes particularly important on a trip on highways at high speed, where air resistance and lack of use of regenerative braking will greatly degrade the distance per kwh. Specifics vary according to the gasoline miles per gallon and MPGe of the specific car under consideration.

 

[RobLJ]

do you have any idea what the gas mileage was without the ev range? I am looking at a rav4 and was curious?

It's around 40-42 mpg without the battery. We use the RAV PHEV for long trips, long camping trips, and hiking requiring access on rough roads/snow/ice.
Around town and on hiking trips within 180 miles round trip we use the Bolt. Love the RAV PHEV like the earlier poster wrote. I put Falken Alltrail tires on it, which are really good in snow and ice (not quite as good as snow tires, but dang close). We've gone over Donner Pass to visit our son and grandkids multiple times in rough conditions this winter and last.

 

[RobLJ]

If you are primarily concerned with economics, you must address the cost of fuel for the PHEV-- the electricity-- when in electric mode. If you pay $0.15/kwh or so for electricity, like we do in California, the fuel cost while running on electricity will compete with the fuel cost of running on gasoline. This becomes particularly important on a trip on highways at high speed, where air resistance and lack of use of regenerative braking will greatly degrade the distance per kwh. Specifics vary according to the gasoline miles per gallon and MPGe of the specific car under consideration.

15c/kwh would less than half of what gasoline would cost in Cali. I have 13c here in Nevada and the Bolt's electricity cost is a bit more than 1/5 what it would cost to drive the Forester it replaced. The RAV is about 1/3 less efficient than the Bolt, but it is still a lot cheaper than gasoline. If you are in Texas where my 90 year old mother is, it would still be cheaper than gasoline, even though gas is cheap. The vehicle is more expensive, although we qualified for the 7500 credit a couple years ago, so the Prime was only about 1500-2000 more expensive than a RAV hybrid.
For our use, at least, (YMMV) we have the best of both worlds with the RAV Prime and Bolt. I don't see buying another vehicle for a long time, but I should buy winter tires for the Bolt; this winter in Reno was a rough one and the Bolt's tires don't do well on ice.

 

[zinger1457]

For those that want a PHEV a bigger problem may be finding one. Most of the PHEV manufacturers seem to limit sales to only the 13 states that are part of the ZEV program, which requires manufacturers to meet specific EV sales mandates. Not much out here in AZ.

 

[RetireEarly50s]

Jeep Wrangler

The Jeep Wrangler PHEV is a great option, best of both worlds plus the off-road capability. We use it around town on battery only and have only filled up the gas tank on road trips. We were able to claim the $7,500 credit on our 2022 taxes.

 

[Midpack]

Toyota says it can make six PHEVs rather than one full EV with the available scarce resources is has available (nickel, lithium, rare earths, cobalt, etc.).
And 90 regular hybrids with the same scarce materials needed for one full EV.

What else can they say without any competitive EVs to sell? Part of their schizo FUD campaign. I’ve owned several Toyota’s including two hybrids, but I doubt I’ll buy another Toyota after learning this. Very well documented, just one excerpt.

Toyota has been lobbying governments to water-down emissions standards or oppose fossil-fuel vehicle phaseouts, according to a New York Times report. In the last four years, Toyota's political contributions to US politicians and PACs have more than doubled. Though Toyota had promised to stop doing so in January, it was caught making donations to the controversial legislators as recently as last month [July 2021].

Toyota has also begun to wage a campaign of FUD—fear, uncertainty, and doubt—to cast EVs as unreliable and undesirable. "If we are to make dramatic progress in electrification, it will require overcoming tremendous challenges, including refueling infrastructure, battery availability, consumer acceptance, and affordability," Robert Wimmer, director of energy and environmental research at Toyota Motor North America, told the Senate in March.

 

[RetMD21]

Toyota says it can make six PHEVs rather than one full EV with the available scarce resources is has available (nickel, lithium, rare earths, cobalt, etc.).
And 90 regular hybrids with the same scarce materials needed for one full EV.

I agree that they can make more PHEVs than EVs with the same resources but won't the ratios depend on the size of the PHEV battery?

72 kWh Bz3x
13.6 kWh 2023 Prius Prime ratio 5.3

Wouldn't a 200 km range PHEV be likely to require at least a 26 kWh battery? The ratio would be less than 3. Maybe the resources aren't proportional to battery size by some magic. Also I can only guess based on vehicles they actually make. Depending on what's available in a couple of years we might be inclined to a strategy of an EV alone + a hybrid.

 

[Koolau]

What else can they say without any competitive EVs to sell? Part of their schizo FUD campaign. I’ve owned several Toyota’s including two hybrids, but I doubt I’ll buy another Toyota after learning this. Very well documented, just one excerpt.

I hate the politics, but keep in mind that "lobbying" is the main tool that companies have. Their president doesn't stand up and refute a congressman on TV, so they do it the hard (and maybe) dirty way. It's our system - right, wrong or indifferent. I'd love to change the system, but I don't see it happening.

But, what I came here to say is that I buy Toyotas because their reliable and they reasonably meet my needs. I'd love to have a Toyota RAV4 Prime, but my old RAV 4 has a lot of life left in it (I hope.)

 

[skyking1]

I agree that they can make more PHEVs than EVs with the same resources but won't the ratios depend on the size of the PHEV battery?

72 kWh Bz3x
13.6 kWh 2023 Prius Prime ratio 5.3

Wouldn't a 200 km range PHEV be likely to require at least a 26 kWh battery? The ratio would be less than 3. Maybe the resources aren't proportional to battery size by some magic. Also I can only guess based on vehicles they actually make. Depending on what's available in a couple of years we might be inclined to a strategy of an EV alone + a hybrid.

A 200 km electric range is not a reasonable design metric.
What most people need is a grocery getter that does not use fuel and a 30 km range more than does that.

 

[Midpack]

I hate the politics, but keep in mind that "lobbying" is the main tool that companies have. Their president doesn't stand up and refute a congressman on TV, so they do it the hard (and maybe) dirty way. It's our system - right, wrong or indifferent. I'd love to change the system, but I don't see it happening.

But, what I came here to say is that I buy Toyotas because they’re reliable and they reasonably meet my needs. I'd love to have a Toyota RAV4 Prime, but my old RAV 4 has a lot of life left in it (I hope.)

I’m not OK with anyone buying influence from the people’s representatives, but I know it’s always been practiced. It wasn’t as institutionalized generations ago as it is today. So I’m accept Toyotas right to lobby, along with consumers right to not patronize them. We get what we deserve…

 

[Aerides]

A 200 km electric range is not a reasonable design metric.
What most people need is a grocery getter that does not use fuel and a 30 km range more than does that.

Personally, I believe that once we get to 500miles on a single charge, the adoption rate graph will be a hockey stick.

 

[skyking1]

Sure, but we are speaking about PHEV. The new Prius Prime would suit us fine if we can get comfortable in it.
At this point in our lives the seats have to be good for us, the in and out.

 

[REWahoo]

Sure, but we are speaking about PHEV. The new Prius Prime would suit us fine if we can get comfortable in it.
At this point in our lives the seats have to be good for us, the in and out.

From what I've seen in photos and reviews, it appears the new Prius would be problematic for entry and exit, at least for anyone over 50 or so. No first hand experience, however.

 

[braumeister]

A 200 km electric range is not a reasonable design metric.
What most people need is a grocery getter that does not use fuel and a 30 km range more than does that.

I have to disagree. 30 km is just about exactly what my PHEV gets, and I really want 50-60. If I do any errands around town in the morning, I have to get back home and recharge for a couple of hours before doing anything in the afternoon. Otherwise I'll be burning gasoline.

Don't get me wrong; I love my PHEV but 30 km just isn't enough range.

 

[Markola]

I saw this PHEV Mitsubishi Outlander SUV in a parade. Looks nice and functional. The website is eye-opening, though. There are no incentives in my area and the mileage calculator says I can only expect $335 worth of fuel savings PER YEAR. Big woop.

It says I can lower my emissions by 74%, which is appealing, but I can probably exceed that carbon savings by taking 1-2 less airline flights/year.

https://www.mitsubishicars.com/cars-and-suvs/outlander-phev