Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV)

[Imackenzie]

I know there is a long thread on EVs here but I didn't notice any thread on PHEV. I have a severe range phobia (and please don't try to help me cure it!) so I am really interested in the Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles. I specifically want to learn more about PHEVs that qualify for full $7,500 federal credit. A quick google search only shows me a couple of PHEVs that qualify for federal credits:

• Chrysler Pacifica PHEV (2022 and 2023 model years, MSRP $80,000 or below)
• Lincoln Aviator Grand Touring PHEV (MSRP $80,000 or below)

We are in not any particular hurry to buy a new car so I was wondering which future PHEVs are coming in the market? The google search wasn't much of a help in this case.

PS: We can use this thread to discuss all PHEVs which may or may not qualify for the federal credits.

Just get a good hybrid. My Ford Maverick truck gets over 41 mpg and cost me 27K to drive off the lot (and not bottom of the line.) Since you are in no hurry, order it from Ford and wait 10-12 months. The dealer can't charge you a dime over MSRP that way.

 

[skyking1]

I have to disagree. 30 km is just about exactly what my PHEV gets, and I really want 50-60. If I do any errands around town in the morning, I have to get back home and recharge for a couple of hours before doing anything in the afternoon. Otherwise I'll be burning gasoline.

Don't get me wrong; I love my PHEV but 30 km just isn't enough range.

yes I was speaking for our future location and I agree that it would be short for some.
Where we live now it would be a little short.

 

[zinger1457]

Lexus is coming out with a TX model plug-in as part of their 2024 line up, Highlander size SUV. From what I've read 33 miles all electric, 30mpg with gas.

 

[Koolau]

I’m not OK with anyone buying influence from the people’s representatives, but I know it’s always been practiced. It wasn’t as institutionalized generations ago as it is today. So I’m accept Toyotas right to lobby, along with consumers right to not patronize them. We get what we deserve…

I understand, but (as the saying goes) I won't cut off my nose to spite my face. Besides, they all do it and maybe only Toyota has (so far) been made to look "bad" for doing it.

 

[RetMD21]

A 200 km electric range is not a reasonable design metric.
What most people need is a grocery getter that does not use fuel and a 30 km range more than does that.

I wonder if there is a possibility that they will offer options like 50 km (or less), 100 km and 200 km. As Aerides noted as EV ranges improve PHEVs will probably fade away even if not mandated.

 

[Koolau]

I have to disagree. 30 km is just about exactly what my PHEV gets, and I really want 50-60. If I do any errands around town in the morning, I have to get back home and recharge for a couple of hours before doing anything in the afternoon. Otherwise I'll be burning gasoline.

Don't get me wrong; I love my PHEV but 30 km just isn't enough range.

Yes, we would need 30 miles, not 30 km to avoid firing up the ICE. We make so many trips to doctors, shopping, airport, etc. that we know almost to the mile what kind of round-trips we make - and it's right at 30 miles. Small as our "driving world" is, we're on one end of the island and every place we go is roughly 15 miles away - one way.

 

[yakers]

DW just got her new Bolt, not our first electric, we had a 2012 Ford Focus Electric which was simply wonderful except for crappy range. So we went to a Ford Fusion Energi which was really great, in the first 10K miles 7K were electric, all out local trips were electric but could head out on a 1K mile (round) trip to see the grand kids and never worry about a charger. Only charged at home and 120V was fine. Lost the car in a dumb accident so eventually we decided on a new Bolt. But the Fusion was a really great car.

 

[yakers]

Starting another post because IMHO a truely great use of a PHEV is the Jeep Wrangler 4Xe. Seriously, a better vehicle than either a gas or all electric one. I had a diesel jeep and this is even better. Most off road trips are short and the torque is ideal for rock crawling. And can drive on ICE. Serious offroading includes spare gas cans. And, again, that electric torque for 4X$ is ideal.

 

[skyking1]

Starting another post because IMHO a truely great use of a PHEV is the Jeep Wrangler 4Xe. Seriously, a better vehicle than either a gas or all electric one. I had a diesel jeep and this is even better. Most off road trips are short and the torque is ideal for rock crawling. And can drive on ICE. Serious offroading includes spare gas cans. And, again, that electric torque for 4X$ is ideal.

I looked at that a little bit. Thank you!
It's overall MPG rating on the ice engine is 20 mpg.
It is a nice 4x4 but it is at the bottom of the list for any sort of hybrid MPG.
My 3500 diesel truck gets 20 mpg and has a towing capacity of 15,500 lb.
All that said, I better not show this to my wife because I think she would want one

 

[RetMD21]

It is my impression that people only charge their EVs up to 80% for day to day use to preserve battery lifespan. Is this a concern with a PHEV? If I had a RAV 4 prime I would really want to have all of the 40 mile range available.

 

[SecondCor521]

It is my impression that people only charge their EVs up to 80% for day to day use to preserve battery lifespan. Is this a concern with a PHEV? If I had a RAV 4 prime I would really want to have all of the 40 mile range available.

I don't know about others, but my son's Volt automatically (I think?) charges between 20% and 80% to preserve battery life span.

At 20% it switches on the ICE. At 80% it shuts off the charger.

I think the quoted useable range for his car takes these battery protection bands into account. So if it's spec'd to 38 miles electric, it will go 38 miles as it goes from 80% -> 20% battery.

I don't know about other PHEVs.

 

[Midpack]

It is my impression that people only charge their EVs up to 80% for day to day use to preserve battery lifespan. Is this a concern with a PHEV? If I had a RAV 4 prime I would really want to have all of the 40 mile range available.

That’s a function of battery chemistry. Some Lithium ion batteries and variants work best in a range of 20-80%, and most EVs have lithium ion NCA batteries, though that may change. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries can be charged to 100% without issue. Weight, cost, energy density, scalability, etc. are still be sorted out. If you have a question about any BEV, PHEV, HEV, check the battery chemistry and go from there.

 

[KarenC]

Toyota says it can make six PHEVs rather than one full EV with the available scarce resources is has available (nickel, lithium, rare earths, cobalt, etc.).
And 90 regular hybrids with the same scarce materials needed for one full EV.

FWIW, here's the Alex on Autos guy's take on this: https://youtu.be/TVaaaNF1ZyU

 

[Koolau]

FWIW, here's the Alex on Autos guy's take on this: https://youtu.be/TVaaaNF1ZyU

Very thought provoking. I've thought along these lines for quite some time. Originally, I though hybrids were the sweet spot of electrified vehicles. Then, I thought more along the lines of a plug in as the sweet spot. PERSONALLY, the plug in would save me more fuel, just as pointed out in the video. Of course, I haven't made the personal calculation if the extra cost of a plug in would be recaptured.

BUT on a total basis, this guy makes a lot of sense that the hybrid is more of a sweet spot for the collective market. Still, most of us (okay, selfishly) make our decisions on our own financial situation. SO, I'm still thinking plug-in (if I live long enough to replace my current ride.) Yeah, I'm selfish.

Thanks for the video. I'd like to hear informed discussion on it. Any data refuting it, etc.

 

[pacergal]

The 2023 Corolla Hybrid comes in an AWD version and starts at $25k. Not a plug in, but has me tempted.

We love our Camry Hybrid.

I personally would not choose full electric, Hybrid or PHEV for me.

 

[Sanstar]

Does anyone worry about the grid being able to handle lots of EV’s charging in garages? With todays heat, we are supposed to be limiting electrical use, AC set to 78 to avoid rolling blackouts. The Snowmegdon two winters years ago is recent enough to make me wonder how we’d fare with an EV and no power for days.

 

[Koolau]

Does anyone worry about the grid being able to handle lots of EV’s charging in garages? With todays heat, we are supposed to be limiting electrical use, AC set to 78 to avoid rolling blackouts. The Snowmegdon two winters years ago is recent enough to make me wonder how we’d fare with an EV and no power for days.

Clearly, more generation capacity will be needed plus an upgraded grid. Will we get that? It seems there's a lot more emphasis on everyone driving a EV but YMMV.

 

[Zathras]

Does anyone worry about the grid being able to handle lots of EV’s charging in garages? With todays heat, we are supposed to be limiting electrical use, AC set to 78 to avoid rolling blackouts. The Snowmegdon two winters years ago is recent enough to make me wonder how we’d fare with an EV and no power for days.

No more than I worry about the grid in general.
EV's may, if our utilities make it out of the 20th century, actually help the grid.
For that, we would need Smart Meters and Vehicle to Grid/House charging.

Japan has this already, I believe some places in Europe are also working on it.

In some states, our grid is already a mess though, and utilities don't want to weatherize them, much less improve them.

 

[Koolau]

No more than I worry about the grid in general.
EV's may, if our utilities make it out of the 20th century, actually help the grid.
For that, we would need Smart Meters and Vehicle to Grid/House charging.

Japan has this already, I believe some places in Europe are also working on it.

In some states, our grid is already a mess though, and utilities don't want to weatherize them, much less improve them.

With the approach that "we'll fix it when it breaks" it won't get better before it get's worse."

 

[Midpack]

No more than I worry about the grid in general.
EV's may, if our utilities make it out of the 20th century, actually help the grid.
For that, we would need Smart Meters and Vehicle to Grid/House charging.

Japan has this already, I believe some places in Europe are also working on it.

In some states, our grid is already a mess though, and utilities don't want to weatherize them, much less improve them.

With the approach that "we'll fix it when it breaks" it won't get better before it get's worse."

Especially where anything infrastructure is concerned. Sad. The benefits of a smart grid have been known for a long time, but utilities and customers have balked so far.

 

[Alan]

No more than I worry about the grid in general.
EV's may, if our utilities make it out of the 20th century, actually help the grid.
For that, we would need Smart Meters and Vehicle to Grid/House charging.

Japan has this already, I believe some places in Europe are also working on it.

In Britain 55% of household meters are smart meters but there is still a surprising resistance to having them installed (for free) because people don't like change and/or are suspicious of utility companies' motives. Just this week we were talking with a friend, in her 70's, at a coffee shop who has recently had her 2nd cataract surgery plus other surgery to fix glaucoma and won't be getting a new prescription for glasses for another week or so. She was saying how difficult it was for her to crouch down in the cupboard under the stairs and read the meter, and this last week she wasn't sure if she was reading 6's rather than 5's so called the company who told her it was probably 5's based on her previous readings. We told her she could get a smart meter for free and she replied that the company had been trying to get her to change for years but she doesn't trust them and is prepared to put up with the inconvenience so she knows the readings are correct. I explained that you can still look at a smart meter and see the reading yourself so that when you get your monthly bill you can always manually verify if you want. Still not convinced

We have had smart meters for at least 6 years now and not only do you never have to do manual readings or provide access now and again for a manual meter read by the company you get access to time of use tariffs. Our overnight rate is 25% of the daytime rate so we charge up EV and our solar batteries overnight. Even during the summer when have loads of excess sunshine and export plenty to the grid, what we get paid for export is more than the overnight rate to charge so I always ensure we start the day with a full charge. I just plugged in the car today for an overnight charge, and the charging won't start until the cheap rates begin at 11:30pm.

A couple of the big energy companies, including the one we use, have done customer trials with V2G and proven how well it works so I'm looking forward to have that option available eventually.

https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/octopus-celebrates-successful-uk-vehicle-to-grid-v2g-trial

These tests have demonstrated the potential benefit of vehicle-to-grid charging – an hour of a million electric cars exporting to the grid could generate the same amount of power as 5,500 onshore wind turbines.

Separate analysis from Octopus Energy’s electric vehicles arm shows that if the trial results were extrapolated across a whole year, electric vehicles could realise a profit of around £62 million per year, while also saving non-participating customers money through grid balancing cost reductions.

It doesn’t just benefit the system either. Further Octopus analysis shows customers could realise a potential saving of up to £840 per year when compared to unscheduled charging on a flat rate tariff.

Several large car brands - including Hyundai and Volkswagen - have committed to include V2G technology in their new electric cars, further emphasising the potential of the technology.

When a service is up and running, consumers could save cash off their energy bills as the Balancing Mechanism incentivises the use of their car battery as a balancing device, contributing to reduced balancing costs across the network, which will help to reduce bills for all energy consumers.

 

[Masquernom]

Speaking of resistance to change, I was talking with a guy a couple of weeks ago, and the conversation turned to electric vehicles. Quite seriously, he told me that he would never buy an EV. I expected the usual issues with range, cost or recharging, but he really surprised me. He said the reason he'd never buy an EV is because the US government can remotely program the vehicles. They could program them to only drive in certain areas and prevent free movement of people. He was completely serious about it. I think I'll be keeping my distance from this guy in the future.

 

[Time2]

I'm wondering how efficient an ICE engine design could be that runs at a fixed RPM, driving a generator to charge the battery. It may be, it can only be optimizes for highway speeds. I see this quote, "At 60 mph, a typical car needs 10 to 20 horsepower" So, I would think an optimized 30hp engine could driving a generator and allow an efficient use of gasoline to go long distances. A 30 horsepower ICE engine would allow a 66% conversion efficiency from gas to battery to electric motor drive. I think the conversion is higher than 66%. The obvious, is why not use the 30HP to drive the car directly, my answer would be the 30HP engine has been optimized to run a a fixed RPM and "hopefully" it's efficiency is high enough to the conversion inefficiency. There is the problem of carrying the weight of the fuel, but even 5 gallons at 40mpg will get you and extra 200 miles.

This is over my pay grade, but interested in discussion. I may be all wet on the idea that a fixed rpm ice engine could be optimized for high fuel efficiency and conversion efficiency.

 

[Koolau]

Speaking of resistance to change, I was talking with a guy a couple of weeks ago, and the conversation turned to electric vehicles. Quite seriously, he told me that he would never buy an EV. I expected the usual issues with range, cost or recharging, but he really surprised me. He said the reason he'd never buy an EV is because the US government can remotely program the vehicles. They could program them to only drive in certain areas and prevent free movement of people. He was completely serious about it. I think I'll be keeping my distance from this guy in the future.

IIRC, Tesla (at least) can communicate with their EVs. They can update software and (apparently) unlock upgrades that you pay for later (that were already there but not activated.) Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Now, whether Tesla can turn off your vehicle and lock it out, or whether they could do some of the things your conspiracy theorist alleges, I doubt, but do not know. CLEARLY, they could at least learn to do some of those things as pretty much the entire car functions from the software which Tesla has access to.

So far, no gummint involved. Until they want to be.

 

[38Chevy454]

Saw an article today that Ford is going to come out with a PHEV Ranger in approx 1 year. Ford's only PHEV is currently the Escape small SUV. It seems a no-brainer to also make a PHEV Maverick; which is only hybrid or ICE currently.