Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV)

[pjigar]

I know there is a long thread on EVs here but I didn't notice any thread on PHEV. I have a severe range phobia (and please don't try to help me cure it!) so I am really interested in the Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles. I specifically want to learn more about PHEVs that qualify for full $7,500 federal credit. A quick google search only shows me a couple of PHEVs that qualify for federal credits:

• Chrysler Pacifica PHEV (2022 and 2023 model years, MSRP $80,000 or below)
• Lincoln Aviator Grand Touring PHEV (MSRP $80,000 or below)

We are in not any particular hurry to buy a new car so I was wondering which future PHEVs are coming in the market? The google search wasn't much of a help in this case.

PS: We can use this thread to discuss all PHEVs which may or may not qualify for the federal credits.

 

[njhowie]

I am interested in this topic with or without the tax credit, for the same underlying reason you indicate - range and charging/time (in)convenience.

 

[pjigar]

I found a good web page that lists all TVs/PHEVs:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml

 

[MBAustin]

I have a 2021 Toyota Prius Prime PHEV and absolutely love it. Also have friends with a RAV4 PHEV and they love it also - it has about 10 more miles of EV range. Most of my driving is within the 30-35 mile EV range of my Prime, but I have the occasional longer trip. Last week I had to make a 180 mile round trip and got just over 70 MPG combined. But I often go several weeks without using any gas at all. Not sure about the tax credits this year - I got a nice one in 2021.

 

[frank]

I have a 2021 Toyota Prius Prime PHEV and absolutely love it. Also have friends with a RAV4 PHEV and they love it also - it has about 10 more miles of EV range. Most of my driving is within the 30-35 mile EV range of my Prime, but I have the occasional longer trip. Last week I had to make a 180 mile round trip and got just over 70 MPG combined. But I often go several weeks without using any gas at all. Not sure about the tax credits this year - I got a nice one in 2021.

do you have any idea what the gas mileage was without the ev range? I am looking at a rav4 and was curious?

 

[braumeister]

I got the $5K tax credit when I bought my 2018 PHEV and certainly appreciated it. When I replace it, even without another tax credit I'll probably get another PHEV of some kind. I can do most normal errands around town on the battery alone, so I can easily go a month or even two without buying gasoline. As another one with range anxiety, I think it's the best option for me.

 

[SecondCor521]

After trying to get the federal tax credit for a month or so with a Nissan Leaf, my son threw in the towel and ended up buying a used Chevy Volt.

The Volt is a great car. He likes being able to run on pure electric most days (and the electricity he fills it with is mostly renewables around here), and enjoys the ~400 mile range when he takes a road trip. I think he's put gas in it about once every other month.

It does only "slow charge", but with his use case he typically doesn't care - plugs it in overnight at home and it's topped off the next morning. Apparently slow charging helps the battery last longer.

His is 9 years old and has 115K on it or so, but it looks and acts like a brand new car. The Volt engineers did a really good job.

 

[camfused]

Screw the tax credit. Get a RAV4 Prime for about $51K. Go 42 miles on a charge, and probably plenty of room for ya.

 

[MBAustin]

do you have any idea what the gas mileage was without the ev range? I am looking at a rav4 and was curious?

Here's what Consumer Reports says: "We were able to drive the Prime about 40 miles on electric power alone, and we got 34 mpg overall when it transitioned to hybrid mode. By switching between the Prime’s drive modes, drivers can choose when they use the electric portion, for instance to save the electric propulsion for later if city driving is anticipated. "

Their overall combined rate was 72 mpge. (Which is interestingly just about the same as what I got on my 180 mile trip this week in my Prius Prime on a which is much smaller but also has a much smaller battery.)

 

[Montecfo]

They do sound interesting and address some of the negatives of EVs.

 

[Midpack]

Some things to consider regarding PHEVs. They never made sense for us, we’ve had 4 hybrids and our next car will be a BEV. But PHEVs can make sense for some depending on your driving habits and plugging in regularly.

Some PHEVs Get Worse Mileage Than a Conventional Car If You Don’t Plug Them In
When the electric range is depleted, most PHEVs get a few miles per gallon less than a comparable hybrid and a few more than a comparable gas-only vehicle. But in some cases, a purely gas-powered car beats a PHEV’s gas-only fuel economy.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-in-hybrid-vehicle-right-for-you-a9339147016/

 

[skyking1]

We could make do with a nearly depleted Leaf when we get settled at the new home, for all but trips to Seattle to see the family. A PHEV would do nicely for us.
Thanks for bringing this option up.

 

[Koolau]

Yes, I've become convinced that PHEV would be the sweet spot for me. That is, assuming I can find a reliable place to charge it. I hope that happens soon.

 

[Zathras]

Help me understand how a PHEV (plug in hybrid) works please>
I think I understand that they have a smaller turbo ICE that is the main power source and the (smaller) battery pack powers electric motors for short range trips. But what happens on long road trips?
I'm imagining a vehicle for my purposes which include long trips of 500 miles each day + short local trips a vehicle where the ICE only acts as a generator to charge the battery rather than powering the drive wheels?
Is something like this available?
Like I said I don't understand a PHEV.

Different companies use the combustion engine differently.

In general, a PHEV is a vehicle with both an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) and a battery.
The battery can be charged from an outlet. It also allows the car to use regenerative braking.

Some PHEVs have a ICE which always runs at it's peak efficiency to charge the batteries. The batteries supply power to the electric motor which powers the wheels.
This is typically enough power to allow the car to continue to drive via the electric motor. It may require more power if driving up a mountain or towing.

Many PHEVs will also use the ICE to heat up the car cabin in cold temps. The details are varied and depend upon the specific model.

In general though, it is just a car. Plug it in as you do your phone each night and drive it. If you drive far, you may need to put fuel in it, as with any other car.

If you have a question about a specific model, let us know. Someone here may own one, or know specifics pertaining to it.

 

[folivier]

I have a garage so charging won't be an issue. But I need a comfortable and quiet car for our long trips. Renting is not an option since we'll be spending 6 months at each place. Don't want a second car sitting at either place. I'll need to replace our 2011 Tahoe in a year or two so starting research now. Having a third row seat is a big plus. I also need at least a 3500# towing rating. Half of our driving will be city when at our condo and the other half will be mountain driving at our cabin. So I need something powerful enough to drive the passes. I usually buy used so what's available now will be what I'll be buying.

 

[Koolau]

I have a garage so charging won't be an issue. But I need a comfortable and quiet car for our long trips. Renting is not an option since we'll be spending 6 months at each place. Don't want a second car sitting at either place. I'll need to replace our 2011 Tahoe in a year or two so starting research now. Having a third row seat is a big plus. I also need at least a 3500# towing rating. Half of our driving will be city when at our condo and the other half will be mountain driving at our cabin. So I need something powerful enough to drive the passes. I usually buy used so what's available now will be what I'll be buying.

I ask (because I do not know) if you leave a car with a Li or other "driving" battery any place, does it go dead while you are gone? I've never had a problem with a lead-acid battery failing to hold enough charge while gone for up to 9 months. Having said that, a normal ICE sounds like a diesel after 9 months without starting. I've got a friend who takes car of that issue now.

 

[eytonxav]

I would also be inclined to go this route, makes perfect sense and am surprised these are not being pushed more by gummit.

 

[Koolau]

I would also be inclined to go this route, makes perfect sense and am surprised these are not being pushed more by gummit.

The gummint (deleted by me) wants to get rid of ALL ICE which PHEV still have. So even though (my opinion) PHEVs are the way to get started toward all EV (folks will get hooked on the almost free 40 miles of normal travel every day and want their next car to be all EV) the gummint just can't quite get on board, 'cause, well, it still has an ICE. What's that saying? Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. YMMV

 

[ERD50]

Some things to consider regarding PHEVs. They never made sense for us, we’ve had 4 hybrids and our next car will be a BEV. But PHEVs can make sense for some depending on your driving habits and plugging in regularly.

Some PHEVs Get Worse Mileage Than a Conventional Car If You Don’t Plug Them In
When the electric range is depleted, most PHEVs get a few miles per gallon less than a comparable hybrid and a few more than a comparable gas-only vehicle. But in some cases, a purely gas-powered car beats a PHEV’s gas-only fuel economy.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-in-hybrid-vehicle-right-for-you-a9339147016/

That's a very good point. The PHEV will save on gas consumption on average if you make a lot of short trips that run mostly on battery, but once you are out of the shorter PHEV range, you are dragging around a larger/heavier battery/motor than if you had a non-plug-in hybrid, and that hurts the gas-only-mode mpg.


So for short trips, the "EV" part of the PHEV is dragging around an ICE and transmission, and for short trips, the "ICE" part of the PHEV is dragging around a battery, motor and controllers. There is a 'sweet spot' where they make good sense though.

I know someone who bought a PHEV, a larger 'luxury' model, but makes a long round trip almost every weekend. He was disappointment to find out that his average gas mileage was as poor as it was. That thing did not do good on the highway, once past battery range.

So it's definitely not "one size fits all" - I'm very interested in the technology, and I think hybrids and PHEV can be good solutions in many cases. But even though I take mostly short trips, A PHEV doesn't make sense for me, as I only put ~ 3000 miles a year on the car. I just don't think that justifies any price increase for a hybrid/PHEV, and the extra cost ($ and environmental impact) of that added battery, motor and controllers would probably be a negative overall at those miles.

I do my part for the environment by just not burning much gas at all, rather than focus on the rate (which is still pretty good, I average ~ 28~30 mpg even with my short trips - small 4 cyl turbo).

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

I would also be inclined to go this route, makes perfect sense and am surprised these are not being pushed more by gummit.

See my post about how "once size does not fit all". IMO, this is a very important reason why the gummit should not be involved in "pushing" technology. Let the buyer decide what works best for them.

The gummit should push the industry for clear, standardized communication so consumers can make good comparisons. For example, the Euro method of using liters per 100 km for fuel consumption makes for much better comparison of vehicles. Even if we used Gallons per 100 miles, it's better.

In case you are wondering, comparing mpg ratings involves calculating harmonic means. It's obvious that moving from using 10 G/100M to 5 G/100M saves 5 gallons per 100 miles, but moving again from 5 G/100M to 2.5 G/100M saves only 2.5 G per 100M. But with mpg, 10 mpg to 20 mpg to 40 mpg sounds like a double in savings each time, but it is diminishing returns. But you have to do the math (not difficult, but not obvious to most people).


Another illustrative example: Say you make a 100 mile trip uphill, and get 20 mpg. On the return drive, you get 30 mpg. Most people will jump to the conclusion that your average mpg was 25 . But it's not. That's a harmonic mean. You'd need to drive 200 miles at 30 mpg to get to a 25 mpg average. But G/100 miles will show you that directly.

But using G per 100 miles (with round numbers to make a better comparison) getting 4 G per 100M on one leg, and 6 G per 100M on the return leg, does give an average of 5 G per 100M.

-ERD50

 

[pjigar]

In case you are wondering, comparing mpg ratings involves calculating harmonic means. It's obvious that moving from using 10 G/100M to 5 G/100M saves 5 gallons per 100 miles, but moving again from 5 G/100M to 2.5 G/100M saves only 2.5 G per 100M. But with mpg, 10 mpg to 20 mpg to 40 mpg sounds like a double in savings each time, but it is diminishing returns. But you have to do the math (not difficult, but not obvious to most people).


Another illustrative example: Say you make a 100 mile trip uphill, and get 20 mpg. On the return drive, you get 30 mpg. Most people will jump to the conclusion that your average mpg was 25 . But it's not. That's a harmonic mean. You'd need to drive 200 miles at 30 mpg to get to a 25 mpg average. But G/100 miles will show you that directly.

-ERD50

Great point! I think planes do something similar: gallons/hour.

 

[eytonxav]

The gummint (deleted by me) wants to get rid of ALL ICE which PHEV still have. So even though (my opinion) PHEVs are the way to get started toward all EV (folks will get hooked on the almost free 40 miles of normal travel every day and want their next car to be all EV) the gummint just can't quite get on board, 'cause, well, it still has an ICE. What's that saying? Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. YMMV

My concern is "you know who" is trying to transition to zero carbon too quickly and considering little has been done to upgrade power generation capabilities across the country and the electrical grid, they are putting the cart before the horse with the EV transition push and it just seems like a recipe for disaster. A little common sense could go a long way.

 

[Chuckanut]

I do my part for the environment by just not burning much gas at all, rather than focus on the rate (which is still pretty good, I average ~ 28~30 mpg even with my short trips - small 4 cyl turbo).

-ERD50

I don’t know. Looking at one’s actual carbon footprint and finding ways to reduce it instead of discussing the relative differences between various ways to power an automobile seems very radical.

 

[finnski1]

See my post about how "once size does not fit all". IMO, this is a very important reason why the gummit should not be involved in "pushing" technology. Let the buyer decide what works best for them.

The gummit should push the industry for clear, standardized communication so consumers can make good comparisons. For example, the Euro method of using liters per 100 km for fuel consumption makes for much better comparison of vehicles. Even if we used Gallons per 100 miles, it's better.

In case you are wondering, comparing mpg ratings involves calculating harmonic means. It's obvious that moving from using 10 G/100M to 5 G/100M saves 5 gallons per 100 miles, but moving again from 5 G/100M to 2.5 G/100M saves only 2.5 G per 100M. But with mpg, 10 mpg to 20 mpg to 40 mpg sounds like a double in savings each time, but it is diminishing returns. But you have to do the math (not difficult, but not obvious to most people).




Another illustrative example: Say you make a 100 mile trip uphill, and get 20 mpg. On the return drive, you get 30 mpg. Most people will jump to the conclusion that your average mpg was 25 . But it's not. That's a harmonic mean. You'd need to drive 200 miles at 30 mpg to get to a 25 mpg average. But G/100 miles will show you that directly.

But using G per 100 miles (with round numbers to make a better comparison) getting 4 G per 100M on one leg, and 6 G per 100M on the return leg, does give an average of 5 G per 100M.

-ERD50

150 miles /30mpg =5 gallons + 100miles/20mpg=250 miles /10 gallons total =25 MPG.
your example 200 miles/30mpg=6.66 gallons + 100 miles/20 mpg=5 gallons total= 300miles/11.666 gallons=25.71 mpg.

 

[Koolau]

So for short trips, the "EV" part of the PHEV is dragging around an ICE and transmission, and for short trips, the "ICE" part of the PHEV is dragging around a battery, motor and controllers. There is a 'sweet spot' where they make good sense though.


-ERD50

This is true, but the weight effects should be relatively small because of the advantages of the propulsion systems being used in their particular mode at particular speeds and best efficiency.

Weight of a vehicle DOES affect mileage. A first order effect is that weight creates more rolling resistance. But RR is a very small effect on mileage compared to air resistance. For a first approximation, air resistance is key - not weight (within reasonable limits for normal cars.)

The main issue with weight is accelerating it to terminal speed. You can literally do that once in a 400 mile trip, though that's unlikely. At terminal speed, weight (again within reason) doesn't make much difference. My huge Buick gets 33 mpg on long trips at 70 mph (AC on.) So on the road when the ICE is the only propulsion system, the extra weight costs very little extra fuel.

Where weight hurts the ICE is precisely when the electric motor takes over. It does the in-town stop and go. When it does have to accelerate, it gets a lot of that back in regen when it stops. Perfect! One other real advantage the electric motor system has is: It is utilized at slow speeds when air resistance is least (it's a squared function - eg. 4 times as much air resistance at 40mph as at 20mph.

By the way, keep in mind that the battery is maybe 15 KW and weighs a lot less than a 80 or 90 KW battery you find in an EV. The electric motors do weigh a fair amount but are surprisingly light compared to their ICE brother of similar HP. I looked up the weight for a RAV 4 and it was 3400 lbs aprox. The RAV 4 PHEV was 3800 lbs aprox. That's 400 lbs difference in a roughly 3400 lb vehicle. A difference to be sure, but not all that much. (Thats 2 people with their stuff.)

My point is that PHEV ICE is not all that less efficient than a similar all ICE, so the MPG shouldn't be affected much when the ICE is used. When the ICE is used, the ICE is at its most efficient - gliding down the road with little acceleration - just mainly air resistance.

AS USUAL, I have now told you way more than I know so YMMV.