Rodent infestation - Landlord blames tenants. Please help.

[braumeister]

a beautiful clean building in Brooklyn, NY.

Ah, yes. I believe I read about that in Ripley's Believe It Or Not!

 

[Safire]

Why do you keep circling back to the carpet, stay on point. which is how does she get rid of the rodents? Nothing has happened with the carpet at this point.

Yes, it has. The pesky rodents have dug up the carpets in multiple places, as I mentioned in my OP, and the LL is hinting / insinuating that she may have to bear financial responsibility to replace 8-yr-old carpets in that entire unit.

And to answer your question in another post, NO, I did not say she had birdseed and bird poop all over the floor. I said the LL claimed that and that is a falsehood. I know this because I visit her regularly and one of the things that DID bother me is that that poor bird is kept in the closet most of the time. It is also exclusively fed there, so if there was any bird seed that would be in the closet not "all over the carpeted areas of the unit". It's just not fair to the bird, so the fact that they blamed the bird and alleged she was letting it free flight all over the apartment rubbed me the wrong way, even though I do not own that bird.

WADR, you're asking for a legal opinion and the internet is a terrible place to get that. Why not encourage your friend to make use of some of the legal help that has been suggested here?

What is WADR?

I have passed on all of the legal resources mentioned here and the feedback about the bird needing to go to her. Thanks.

 

[MichaelB]

What is WADR?

With all due respect

 

[ivinsfan]

Yes, it has. The pesky rodents have dug up the carpets in multiple places, as I mentioned in my OP, and the LL is hinting / insinuating that she may have to bear financial responsibility to replace 8-yr-old carpets in that entire unit.

And to answer your question in another post, NO, I did not say she had birdseed and bird poop all over the floor. I said the LL claimed that and that is a falsehood. I know this because I visit her regularly and one of the things that DID bother me is that that poor bird is kept in the closet most of the time. It is also exclusively fed there, so if there was any bird seed that would be in the closet not "all over the carpeted areas of the unit". It's just not fair to the bird, so the fact that they blamed the bird and alleged she was letting it free flight all over the apartment rubbed me the wrong way, even though I do not own that bird.



What is WADR?

I have passed on all of the legal resources mentioned here and the feedback about the bird needing to go to her. Thanks.

When I said nothing has happened with the carpet I meant no one has billed her for replacing the carpet.


It's now a case of she said/they said, right now your being mad and her being mad isn't helping anything. Unless you want to go help steam clean the carpet and apartment and/or rehome the bird yourself I don't think that you are actually helping her at the moment. Or go to HD and buy 25 bucks worth of mousetraps, glue traps and steelwool for her.



Unless you were here the exact time the exterminator was there you don't know what was on the carpet.

 

[Safire]

When I said nothing has happened with the carpet I meant no one has billed her for replacing the carpet.


It's now a case of she said/they said, right now your being mad and her being mad isn't helping anything. Unless you want to go help steam clean the carpet and apartment and/or rehome the bird yourself I don't think that you are actually helping her at the moment. Or go to HD and buy 25 bucks worth of mousetraps, glue traps and steelwool for her.



Unless you were here the exact time the exterminator was there you don't know what was on the carpet.

Ever heard of photographs?

The point of this post was mostly about her liability for the carpets and for "causing this infestation". Never disputed the fact that she needs to clean that unit and rehome that bird.

 

[ERD50]

...

And to answer your question in another post, NO, I did not say she had birdseed and bird poop all over the floor. I said the LL claimed that and that is a falsehood. I know this because I visit her regularly and one of the things that DID bother me is that that poor bird is kept in the closet most of the time. It is also exclusively fed there, so if there was any bird seed that would be in the closet not "all over the carpeted areas of the unit". ...

Well, having lived with birds in the house, and by your descriptions overall, I can practically guarantee you that bird seed was all over the floor of that closet.

So unless the closet was of an unusual design that no mouse could penetrate (they can easily get underneath a typical closet door), I'd assume the mice were feeding on that bird seed. At a minimum, they'd smell it, and be attracted to it.

I have to agree with some others, if you want to help, get off the 'blame game' and focus on solutions. Even if those solutions would seem to be the LL responsibility (that can be probably be decided by the generally tenant friendly resources in that area), do them yourself if it helps get rid of the mice.

BTW, I *hate* mice, and will go to great lengths to keep them out. Fix the source (food/warmth), set lots and lots and lots of traps, seal off any entry points.

Google will help you in identifying entry points.

-ERD50

 

[Safire]

Pest control apparently showed up a couple of hours ago, again did a "VISUAL INSPECTION" of the unit and then left saying they will talk to maintenance about opening up a work order to fix the laundry vent. Maintenance again denied the laundry vent was the entry way and Property Manager did not respond to my friend's complaint that all that pest control seems to be doing is "visual inspection" of the property aka checking on her housekeeping. No traps were laid today, either because you know... apparently, pest control only looks over the unit but does not have to lay traps or anything.

I truly fail to understand why this is not an issue / problem on the LL's part. Is this LL's way of trying to get her to move?

 

[calmloki]

Trying to keep out mice that really want in is a battle one is bound to lose. Your best chance is to make the mice NOT want to come in. Steel wool (cheap and easy to get and use - much faster than calling a landlord and scheduling with the exterminator or setting up an appointment with legal aid) is a thing to try as an earlier poster suggested. But mice can flatten out and wriggle through a 1/4" high crack - IF they want in.
https://sssb.se/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/Facts_ratsmice_ENG.pdf

Having an exterminator come out is not free to the landlord, and I can easily imagine an exterminator looking at a situation and feeling like they are being asked to rig a little pump in a basement when there are floodwaters three feet deep outside. Mice falling from the ceiling? Yep, that is a very attractive mouse habitat! Nobody wants to waste time or money.

The chaos of raising an autistic child has to be exhausting, and reasonable accommodations must be made by landlords, but damage that a guide dog does to a wood floor is rightly charged to the tenant. A destroyed eight year old carpet? - I don't see that getting charged to the tenant's deposit. A tenant who has destroyed a carpet and wants a new one installed? I'd be dragging my feet before just saying "No". If the exterminator made a report that due to housing conditions it was going to be expensive and pointless to try and stem the mousey horde I'd probably be urging the perceived problem tenant out.

Traps and steel wool are cheap. Remove mousey food sources. Getting along with the landlord is probably less stressful than fighting and may get quicker results and a longer tenancy.

Best to all - breathe.

 

[RobbieB]

Photographs always look better than the real thing if the real thing is not so good, hides imperfections. They also make really good looking stuff look not as nice.

Have you been to your friend's place?

 

[Another Reader]

Rereading the original post, it looks like there are two adults, the friend and her spouse, and two older teens living in this apartment, along with the autistic child. I don't understand how four reasonably competent adults and near adults cannot keep the apartment clean and help with the care of the child and the bird. Seems possible that no one expects three of the capable residents to clean the apartment or do anything else. Perhaps the friend needs to evaluate the bigger issue of expectations as responsible for the cleanliness problem.

The family dynamics are not the landlord's problem, but the vermin and the filth are. Maybe the friend needs to work on both issues to resolve this situation.

 

[ivinsfan]

Are you talking dryer vent? That's not a general access spot for rodents, mine is shut unless the dryer is venting.

Is this pest control unit owned by the landlord otherwise they simply a neutral party in this scenario.


The landlord is the problem and the enemy, the pest control people are the enemy, no the vermin are the enemy!!!

 

[Winemaker]

First of all, was there an inspection report made after move in, listing all defects. Were they corrected? Was there evidence of rodent infestation on move in? Any other defects like hole where vermin could enter? Were these identified and corrected on move in? If the were no complains for several years, then suddenly an infestation takes place, it doesn't seem to me the landlord is the problem. This is why I have a no pets clause in my lease. The unit should be delivered in a "perfect setting" that the tenant accepts when moving in. Any intial problems should be reported immediately. Just like a drain; it is a hole in the pipe that drains the sink, tub, or commode. If it works for several months after you move in , and then suddenly it doesn't, it doesn't seem the landlord is the problem. Clean your place up, get rid of the bird, put traps/sticky boards out. if you still have issues, call me in a month.

 

[Letj]

Pest control apparently showed up a couple of hours ago, again did a "VISUAL INSPECTION" of the unit and then left saying they will talk to maintenance about opening up a work order to fix the laundry vent. Maintenance again denied the laundry vent was the entry way and Property Manager did not respond to my friend's complaint that all that pest control seems to be doing is "visual inspection" of the property aka checking on her housekeeping. No traps were laid today, either because you know... apparently, pest control only looks over the unit but does not have to lay traps or anything.

I truly fail to understand why this is not an issue / problem on the LL's part. Is this LL's way of trying to get her to move?

Because it’s not the landlord’s issue to address. She needs to get rid of them herself. Why is she waiting on the landlord? Is she really comfortable having her children live under those conditions?

 

[Teacher Terry]

This is a disgusting situation and I would be doing everything in my power to get rid of the mice. In fact the one time in my life I had a few my husband was out of town and I hired someone to set traps and plug holes. 2 were caught in a few days and the problem was solved. Years ago I had a rental and really happy this never happened. Your friend needs to take responsibility for their actions. I would think the carpet damage is wear and tear but I wouldn’t be replacing it for the current tenant as it’s a lost cause.

 

[EastWest Gal]

Climate change-severe drought, may be driving vermin inside. Rats can chew through anything, including waterpipes and wiring to get inside. A hole behind an appliance (where wires and gas lines come in) may have been there since before the tenant moved in, but this year's drought can have an impact on the behavior of the animals. They are seeking food, water, and shelter. And with an increasing homeless population, there may be more human food and nesting material in the trash left due to homelessness. These are causes that are neither the responsibility of the landlord nor the tenants.

It is sad that this is a problem for both tenants and the landlord, but instead of working to solve the problem there is a blame game going on.

What can the tenants do? Besides sealing all food in impenetrable containers, there are many other things that can be done. For example, lthough the place may seem clean, there may be boxes in closets providing nesting sites. I'm disturbed that OP's friend has not even determined if the animals are rats or mice. This makes no sense to me, and seems highly irresponsible, since it affects how the problem is handled.

The bird is huge problem in my mind. Mice may be small enough to squeeze into a birdcage. Even a few seeds left on floor can cause a problem. Not only that, it is beyond cruel and pointless to keep a lone social bird in a closet. She needs to find a better home for the bird, one where there can be social interaction with humans most of the time, or even a new bird companion.

Are there openings in the apartment (check light fixtures, behind appliances where electric and gas lines come in? Have the rodents chewed their way in (they can chew wood, PVC water pipes, wiring, insulation, and drywall.

There are factors that increase the rodent population in general in the Bay Area that neither tenant nor landlord can control. A drought can drive rats and mice toward human habitats, seeking water and shelter. An increasing homeless population on the west coast leads to increased trash and food which increases the rodent population, then they outstrip the outdoor manmade food supply, and look for more food.

It would be better to solve the problem together rather than play a blame game. The tenant should do what they can, and educate themselves about their problem, take action to prevent rodent entry, rather just blaming the landlord, and vice versa. Unfortunately, it appears the rodents are probably producing babies in the wall so what was a minor problem has become a major problem.

Also be aware that mice can carry hantavirus, and even their urine can contain the virus, so one needs to take great care when cleaning up rodent waste. Plague is endemic in wildlife in parts of California, though there has not been a major outbreak in 95 years. Still, you never know. Rodents and cats are both susceptible to plague.

I wish OP's friend good luck, but everyone has their work cut out for them.

 

[ERD50]

.... No traps were laid today, either because you know... apparently, pest control only looks over the unit but does not have to lay traps or anything.
...

OK, this is beyond ridiculous.

Traps are cheap, if your friend can't take it upon themselves to buy a couple dozen traps and some peanut butter, and clean up, and keep cleaning, (and get rid of the bird, which should have been done long ago), then this is all pointless.

Traps and peanut butter are far more effective than and cheaper than lawyers.

https://www.amazon.com/Victor-set-mouse-trap-Pack/dp/B01CH01PA4

~ $1 a piece, and easily re-usable if you aren't too squeamish (use discarded plastic bags to avoid contact). I like to glue these to a strip of wood, makes it easier to place them towards the back of things, like the back of a fridge or cabinet. Set lots of them, the more the better, look on the internet for the proper way to place them.

A minute on the internet will tell you how to tell the difference between a rat and a mouse (there must be droppings laying around). But OP/friend is still unsure of this? Do your homework.

Seal up the openings with some copper wool (won't rust). It's easy and cheap, why wait for the landlord?


copper mesh:

https://www.amazon.com/FlyBye-DS801...words=copper+wool+mice&qid=1633788973&sr=8-45

Why let $40 stand between you, the mice, and waiting for the LL to do something? If you turn out to be on the right side of this, the LL can reimburse you. No way I'm waiting on someone else if I have rodents in my house.

Take control. Take action. I'm out, except as an observer. I can't deal with people playing the victim.

I might make one post later, for the general public here, regarding what I learned about hantavirus.

-ERD50

 

[38Chevy454]

As a landlord of 25 years who have had many tenants, I have dealt with this scenario. This situation is almost certainly the tenant’s fault as a result of poor or non existent housekeeping skills. Children have to be trained to clean up after themselves and the parents have to be constantly vigilant in maintaining a clean place with no food droppings for mice and roaches. I believe that mental illness can play a role. I’ve had tenants with young children who never ever cleaned their bathrooms or anywhere else in the house with no area visible on the floor and remnants of food and food wrappings strewn all over and they were very comfortable living like this. Your friend owes the landlord big time and I definitely see why they want to get rid of her as they should.

This is getting to the root of the problem. Along with other replies, the problem is the OP's friend does not keep a clean place. Mice and other rodents will go where they find food. OP's friend is lucky the landlord has put up with the bird and lack of cleanliness to this point. I agree the landlord will be happy when they move out. Problem tenants, and the situation made worse by local laws that favor problem tenants.



Stop making excuses about being the landlord's problem and legal help to fight the landlord. Clean up the place and the mice will go away. It is no more complicated than that. Getting a cat can help as well, but that may not be a solution with the bird.

 

[ivinsfan]

This is getting to the root of the problem. Along with other replies, the problem is the OP's friend does not keep a clean place. Mice and other rodents will go where they find food. OP's friend is lucky the landlord has put up with the bird and lack of cleanliness to this point. I agree the landlord will be happy when they move out. Problem tenants, and the situation made worse by local laws that favor problem tenants.



Stop making excuses about being the landlord's problem and legal help to fight the landlord. Clean up the place and the mice will go away. It is no more complicated than that. Getting a cat can help as well, but that may not be a solution with the bird.

For heaven's sake don't tell them to get a cat. Litter boxes , cat hair and all that.



Pretty much every post of the last 60 something have said exactly what you just said. From the get go the OP doesn't agree with us.

 

[Safire]

Some of you guys are taking this wayyyyyyyyyy too personally. Please remember that this woman is a complete stranger to you and NOT your tenant - problem one or not. And the Landlord is a corporation, not a Mom and Pop individual landlord. So just, please, relax.

Anyway, a VERY interesting update: It's bizarre but now the LL claims there IS NO infestation in the unit. Yes, that's right. She received a long and rambling email from the "manager" about how Pest Control (who came out yesterday) found NO signs because an individual mouse "drops a lot and there was no sign of huge amount of droppings in the premises". And that the carpet being ripped up is "rough wear and tear" because "mice don't eat carpets per the pest control person's professional opinion". WHAT? They don't have any use for carpets as nesting material etc? Or is this a freaking rat infestation?

They also claimed that the unit no longer "seems to have as much foot traffic as before" (exact words) and is much cleaner (really?) so all she needs to do is to continue laying traps to get the remaining mice! Then all will be well in the lala land these people seem to inhabit.

Except, my buddy HAS been seeing cumin-seed like and larger dark droppings. She just so happens to vacuum daily and maybe that is why there is no sign of "huge amounts" of droppings? As I mentioned before, she DOES clean daily, but her son (like my own) can be VERY messy and she simply isn't able to keep up with him.

But this volte face is really startling. I have to say that the unit does NOT look "much cleaner" to me. I was just there taking videos and photographs of the NEW places on the carpets that have been ripped up, apparently last night. I don't know, I purchased a bunch more traps from Home Depot on my way there after she called me, and am helping her document this saga. There's NO way her housekeeping skills dramatically improved last week AND - to me - that apartment looks just like it always has. BTW, some folks here are assuming that this is a Hoarders-like situation. NO, it's not. It's a little messy but she does not have clutter and does clean regularly. It's just not enough because of the kid and she cannot keep up with him 24/7. I'll be taking him for part of next week while she gets the place a much needed deep clean but the volte face concerns me. What could cause them to go from "you caused this infestation" to "there's no infestation because we aien't seeing no droppings"?

And for the individuals who claimed why she's not taking action -- actually she is as I've posted many times before. She's paid out of pocket for the traps, stuffed steel wool where she perceives is an opening, boxed up all edibles (including bird seed) in large Rubbermaid containers, and at my insistence, is hiring a maid service and a carpet cleaning service to do a very deep cleaning. And that bird is now advertised for rehoming on Craig's List. I would have taken him but just can't deal with any pets, especially not a social bird that requires a lot of attention given my own autistic kid's needs.

So that's where we are. This looks like it's going to get really interesting soon.

Two questions I do have:

1. Can rodents enter through UNUSED fireplaces and can they hide in kitchen closets?

2. Could this be a RAT infestation and not a mouse infestation? Whatever ripped up the carpet dug up NEAR the traps avoiding the traps completely. The manager vehemently denies that there's "rats in the complex". He doth protest too much?

 

[braumeister]

Some posts had to be removed for cause. This thread has outlived any usefulness it might have had and is now closed.