Tankless Water heater

[harley]

I've been looking into replacing our 15 year old 80 gallon water heater. We have a very large soaking tub that even the 80 gal tank has a hard time filling. Especially since it's at the far end of a large house from the water heater. I was talking to a plumber recently, and he said they were offering a booster system that would allow a 50 gallon water heater to perform like our 80. I don't remember the details (brand name). Has anybody had any experience with something like this? It's supposed to be cheaper than the larger water heater.

 

[Ronstar]

Sounds like your well water remains a problem...add a sediment filter (or maybe a centrifugal sand separator) in addition to the iron treatment.

...For the OP, I think a little water treatment ahead of a conventional tank heater is the way to go. I was a senior PM for a major water systems company and that is my humble opinion......

Sounds like you need a sediment filter.-ERD50

Thanks for the sediment filter and/ or pre treatment idea. I had asked our iron filter guy about such a solution years ago when he was here cleaning the iron filter. He said it wasn't necessary. I questioned what I thought was an excessive amount of gunk that he was removing from the iron filter. He said that it was normal. He comes again early April, I'll tell him that I have water heaters going out every 2 years and see what he recommends.

Weird thing - I have a water softener after the iron filter and before the water heater. No discoloration or sediment in it.

As mentioned, verify pressure doesn't ever go much above 60 PSI (just because you saw 55 doesn't mean it stays there). Is there some water-hammering? Is your pressure tank providing a cushion, or do you need an expansion tank? Might be a check valve somewhere preventing pressure release? pH? -ERD50

I'll take a harder look at this.

 

[pb4uski]

We have a Takagi tankless propane unit that is about 11 years old and has been a workhorse. We have it flushed with a vinegar solution and serviced annually. We had to replace the heat exchanger about 5 years in.

I like it's space saving attributes. It's mounted on the exterior wall and a little larger than a 30-pack of beer.

We use it for heating and domestic hot water. When we first installed it the filter screen was getting plugged frequently and our plumber installed a whole house water filter just after the water enters the house and that solved the problem.

We change the filter monthly when we are there and at the end of each month there is 1/4-1/2" of rust colored silt in the bottom of the filter cup.

I don't think that they make my model any more but I'm a very satisfied customer.

 

[Music Lover]

Tankless are more expensive and more complicated. We don't need unlimited hot water so why buy something more expensive that has more negatives than positives?

I buy a mid-level regular tank ($450 last time) and connect it myself. PEX makes the plumbing easy and it's a simple electrical connection that takes 5 minutes.

We have well water and the average life span of a tank is 8 - 10 years.

 

[COcheesehead]

Tankless are more expensive and more complicated. We don't need unlimited hot water so why buy something more expensive that has more negatives than positives?

I buy a mid-level regular tank ($450 last time) and connect it myself. PEX makes the plumbing easy and it's a simple electrical connection that takes 5 minutes.

We have well water and the average life span of a tank is 8 - 10 years.

I don’t find the tankless having more negatives at all - just the opposite.

 

[Music Lover]

I don’t find the tankless having more negatives at all - just the opposite.

Really? They are more expensive, more complicated, and probably require an upgraded electrical or another gas connection.

How are those not negatives?

 

[Dash man]

Really? They are more expensive, more complicated, and probably require an upgraded electrical or another gas connection.



How are those not negatives?

I don’t see how they’re more complicated, our gas line was already near the location of our old hot water tank, and adding an electrical circuit for the tank was a one time expense. The gas use is less with the tankless, so we recover the cost over time. The convenience of never running out of hot water and gaining space where the tank was is worth the extra cost.

 

[COcheesehead]

Really? They are more expensive, more complicated, and probably require an upgraded electrical or another gas connection.

How are those not negatives?

I had mine installed as a new build. Now we have instant, endless hot water with the technology to manage it efficiently.
I have had the old fashion tank systems, that fail, usually on a weekend, spill water on failure all over the basement. They need to be drained too and I can’t program it to run only at certain times costing us more in energy and run out of hot water right when you want more. No thank you. Leaving that technology behind.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
Really? They are more expensive, more complicated, and probably require an upgraded electrical or another gas connection.

How are those not negatives?

I had mine installed as a new build. Now we have instant, endless hot water with the technology to manage it efficiently.
I have had the old fashion tank systems, that fail, usually on a weekend, spill water on failure all over the basement. They need to be drained too and I can’t program it to run only at certain times costing us more in energy and run out of hot water right when you want more. No thank you. Leaving that technology behind.

He didn't say there aren't positives - he just said that are negatives. Esp in regard to OP, who needs the electrical upgrade, and issues powering it with his generator. Those are negatives.

BTW, "instant" hot water doesn't make sense. Tankless have to heat the water on demand, which takes some (even if small) amount of time. With tank-type, the water is already hot. That's a plus for tank-type, and a negative (even if small) for tankless.

It's the circulation system that can provide 'instant' hot water, and those can be installed on either, and probably easier on tank-type as no changes are needed to avoid short cycles. I think in some cases, a small tank it added to tankless to reduces those short cycles of heating the small amount of water in the pipes (which as someone mentioned, the pipes are essentially the 'tank').

-ERD50

 

[COcheesehead]

He didn't say there aren't positives - he just said that are negatives. Esp in regard to OP, who needs the electrical upgrade, and issues powering it with his generator. Those are negatives.

BTW, "instant" hot water doesn't make sense. Tankless have to heat the water on demand, which takes some (even if small) amount of time. With tank-type, the water is already hot. That's a plus for tank-type, and a negative (even if small) for tankless.

It's the circulation system that can provide 'instant' hot water, and those can be installed on either, and probably easier on tank-type as no changes are needed to avoid short cycles. I think in some cases, a small tank it added to tankless to reduces those short cycles of heating the small amount of water in the pipes (which as someone mentioned, the pipes are essentially the 'tank').

-ERD50

I get instant hot on my system. I have had three systems, a tank, a tankless no recirculating pump and one with the pump. The last one is superior.

 

[Music Lover]

For me at least, the negatives of tankless (for me) outweigh the positives. Maybe some people see it the other way, that's fine.

I put my HW tank right under the kitchen and bathroom so we get hot water in 3 or 4 seconds. That's instant enough.

 

[ERD50]

I get instant hot on my system. I have had three systems, a tank, a tankless no recirculating pump and one with the pump. The last one is superior.

My point was/is - any system (tank/tankless) with a recirculating pump will be better at providing 'instant' hot water than one w/o that pump. It's not a 'plus' at all for tankless, and actually a small minus - it does take some time for a tankless to get the water heated. It's already hot in the tank-type.

The plus may outweigh the negatives for some, depending on conditions and expectations. That's great, do whatever works for you.

-ERD50

 

[Out of Steam]

Yeah, that’s a whole other kettle of fish.

I looked into those when we did the big renovation.

Issues include a pretty lengthy recharge time when you run out of hot water. The heat pump is more efficient, but slower than burning gas or using electric heating elements.

The complaints I've seen about hybrid water heaters with the compressor on top have been noise related. Whatever the manufacturers say, they need to be well away from your living space.

 

[Out of Steam]

Our current Rheem water heater (tank) sprung a leak today. 20 months after it was installed as a warranty replacement of the previous tank water heater that lasted 20 months. We've had around 8 water heaters in 28 years.

Might a water heater with a plastic tank be useful?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-M...-Electric-Tank-Water-Heater-MR50245/205466186

 

[NgineER]

I've been looking into replacing our 15 year old 80 gallon water heater. We have a very large soaking tub that even the 80 gal tank has a hard time filling. Especially since it's at the far end of a large house from the water heater. I was talking to a plumber recently, and he said they were offering a booster system that would allow a 50 gallon water heater to perform like our 80. I don't remember the details (brand name). Has anybody had any experience with something like this? It's supposed to be cheaper than the larger water heater.

I have no experience with it myself but have been thinking about it doing this as my kids are growing older and liking longer showers. There are a couple of companies making them.

Rheem's tank booster is mounted on top of your hot water outlet and heats hot water further when temperature drops. Pretty pricey and requires some basic electric wiring.

The mixing valve option is a device that connects to your hot water outlet and mixes cold water with hot water from the water heater to your desired temperature. This requires you to increase the temperature on the tank water heater (recommended is 140) and add an extra water line to the mixing valve. then when mixed with the cold water drops it to whichever setpoint you'd like (usually 120). By raising the temperature in the water heater and mixing it with cold water, a tank booster draws less water out of the hot water tank allowing it to last longer and no rewiring is required.

The Rheem solution is about 2x the cost of the mixing valve option, and would not normally run until you are running low on hot water in the tank. The mixing valve option would always require higher water temperature in your water heater, but the upside is that you eliminate the risk of Legionella in the water tank.

Both options are nice solutions if you are running low on hot water consistently.

 

[tulak]

I don’t find the tankless having more negatives at all - just the opposite.

+1

My old house had a tankless and it worked great. The water runs were short, so no real time difference between the tank and tankless for hot water. You free up space and eliminate the possibility of future water damage.

My current place has a tank which I’m planning on replacing this summer with a tankless. Even with the tank I don’t get instant hot water, so I suspect that it won’t be much different with a tankless. I’ve thought about recirculating pumps, but for me it’s not a big deal.

I’l looking forward to the space savings. A tankless should also last 20+ years, which is probably longer than I’ll live here.

If you decide to install a tankless, you should check if you can get a tax credit. I think it’s $400 for 2023, but would need to double check.

I noticed a comment about gas vs electric, which sounded like electric is better? I’ve always assumed that gas is better, since it heats the water quicker. Is that wrong?

 

[Happyras]

Weird thing - I have a water softener after the iron filter and before the water heater. No discoloration or sediment in it.


I'll take a harder look at this.

My first check would be pH. Low pH will drive dissolved solids which will not precipitate in a media filter, and calcium hardness maybe removed in your softener tank, but other dissolved solids may pay through such as copper if pH is not neutral or slightly acid, Or if the softener resin is not working.

Not sure what you do to soften, but what does your anode rod show in the tank it should be pulling metallic ions out of solution not addressed by the softener. It could be your softener is not doing its job.

 

[Piper20]

RV’s have had the mixing valve and have been problematic. The valves corrode and fail open with no hot water at all. Take the valve out, soak in vinegar was the solution. They may have improved for residual use.

 

[skyking1]

Tankless is a good marriage with gas, because the gas piping can deliver a whole lot of BTU without a size change for your house.
With electric, it takes a lot of amps, so much so that many would-be customers can't go that way without upgrading the service to their home.
We are all electric and won't be doing tankless or heat pump, because the Ground Source Heat Pump (GSHP) has a desuperheater loop that will heat the water in the tank to ~120 as a byproduct of heating the home. My brother turned off the breaker to his hot water tank with his GSHP.

 

[ERD50]

Tankless is a good marriage with gas, because the gas piping can deliver a whole lot of BTU without a size change for your house. ...

That's not always the case. Our neighborhood went in ~2006, so all modern utilities. Everyone here has gas furnace and water heaters. A few months ago, I saw a bunch of gas company trucks a few houses down. Of course, I got curious and asked a worker what was going on, was there a leak, a bad valve already? No, he said this house was installing a tankless water heater, and needed their gas line upgraded. I suspect I paid for some of that, I doubt they pass all the costs on to that homeowner, they had 5 trucks out there for a solid day. SIL is in the business, he says some of that is due to the different jobs/skills/tools required (digging versus actual hook up, etc), some is safety related.

Made me look.... the pipe coming into my home is ~ 1 3/8" OD, the pipe coming out of the ground into the meter is ~ 1 1/16". That smaller OD pipe is higher pressure, the meter regulates it down. I'm guessing it is also a thicker wall to stand up to being buried, so proportionately smaller ID?

Maybe they really went oversize, I don't know.

-ERD50

 

[skyking1]

That is the only time I have heard a story like that. Typically it is not an issue.

 

[Music Lover]

I get instant hot on my system. I have had three systems, a tank, a tankless no recirculating pump and one with the pump. The last one is superior.

Both tankless and tank systems provide hot water. I just prefer the less expensive and less complicated solution. A tankless adds nothing of value for us.

 

[ER Eddie]

Ungrateful water heaters are the worst.

 

[COcheesehead]

With the programmable app, the tankless for us is less expensive. I don’t understand the comments about them being complicated. I am not the most mechanically inclined individual on the planet and I find them easy. Easier than when I had to drain a tank in my basement.

 

[skyking1]

Ungrateful water heaters are the worst.

Oh Eddie Eddie
Straight out of Dragnet

" It's a glamourless, Tankless job that's got to be done"

https://youtu.be/nx5GwULPU90