the book "die with zero"

[audreyh1]

I would be interested in folk's opinions on time vs money in general and what your reactions are to the book if you read it. This is of course a complex topic when considering LTC and other considerations.

I retired almost 24 years ago at age 39 because I felt like we had enough and time was far more valuable to me than money. We never got bored. No kids or other things to tie us down. We loved leisure travel and wanted no constraints on our time/schedule.

 

[ColdFeet]

I retired almost 24 years ago at age 39 because I felt like we had enough and time was far more valuable to me than money. We never got bored. No kids or other things to tie us down. We loved leisure travel and wanted no constraints on our time/schedule.

So I would never ask you this. But.. my wife.. the lone hold out to our plan (guess that wld make that my plan lol) thinks you must have $5mil.

I say possible but not probable. If you care to share and settle our dispute.. feel free. At what amount you felt comfortable able to do that?

 

[RxMan]

It’s easy for someone who has always had money to give the advice to spend more money. That’s the impression I got from that book. It’s different when you spend a lifetime working hard to earn money. People tend to be more careful about spending in that situation.

The short answer to me would be to buy all annuities if you really want to not have money left. For most people there are legacy concerns that make it a good thing to have a remaining balance after you die if for no other reason than to pay for funeral expenses assuming those weren’t prepaid.

Having said all of that I do understand that there could be a struggle to break the accumulation habit and actually spend money you can afford to spend in retirement. I could see myself being hesitant especially early on in retirement out of fear of running out of money or the government stealing more of it.

I think this is where proper retirement planning comes in handy. If you’ve done the planning you should be comfortable spending within your budget. It’s a matter of trusting your plan.

 

[sengsational]

"Just took the whole family (kids, spouses, grandkids) on a vacation and plan on doing that every year until we can't do it anymore."


Love it!!!

The book prompted me to take the kids and their SO's on a vacation. The idea was to build good memories that the author says will pay dividends when you're too old to do much, but can recall those good times. It was logistically challenging to set up so six people were okay with everything. It turned out in this example, my goodwill was ignored over a difference of opinion on whether a topic was important enough to talk about, so that trip isn't going to generate the glow when I'm in the rocking chair. I guess the moral is, just because your intentions are to build wonderful memories with those you love, it might be a challenge.


One huge point in the book, again, one where I have been taking action is about how arbitrary the date I croak is WRT the usefulness of money to my kids. I don't think annuities are a great deal, but I think you can build something with your kids, if they're on a secure financial footing, that can work to let you and them get more mileage out of your assets. Say you have a 50-50 chance of leaving $1M when you die and you have 10 years left. You can gift $100K this year, and redo the calculation next year. If you get real lucky and live extra long, your kids would come to your rescue. I know, nobody wants to depend on someone else, but this is a statistically small probability. I think the problem with most INTJ's on this site is they're planning for the worst eventuality, even though it's super unlikely. There is also the tendency to assume money in the future is just as valuable as it is today.

 

[pacergal]

Have the book on my hold list at the library, just to see what the author has to say.
I have no interest in spending down everything, we may need LTC, and it is important to us to leave a legacy.
That being said, we gift to our kids sometimes. And have also started taking the whole family on a week vacation in the summer, we rent a home on the coast and have a blast. Next year we are heading to Hawaii.
The goal is to spend time together and make memories.
We have everything we need for our day to day life.

 

[Librarian]

I guess this has been our mantra, somewhat...

We were both teachers, so "accumulating money" is with a grain of salt. Pension takes care of most of our retirement $ but a bit of savings too.

We took vacations every year--usually Vegas a couple times & cruise once a year. Every year or 2 the kids did the cruise with us or we went to Disney World. So we definitely enjoyed ourselves.

Now that we have retired in our late 50s, our focus is travel (OK, DH's is also golf...).
We are spending more now than we will later...we have watched our healthy parents suddenly get ill & pass in 6 mos, or 2 years...or go from able to travel to NOT due to health issues.

I told my parents to not save that $ for us, but to spend it. Now my father has a nice chunk of money...with little ability to enjoy it as traveling is off the table for him.

We intend to enjoy it!

 

[tenant13]

Great book. I haven’t really learned anything new from it but I liked how he just hammered what I realized was my life into bullet points.

 

[Gumby]

People who say money is not important have probably never been poor.

 

[tenant13]

People who say money is not important have probably never been poor.

That’s not what the book is saying. The author gives equal importance to money, health and time and suggests that prudent management of all three throughout the entirety of life is what has the best chance of leaving you with zero regrets at your death bed.

 

[SlowlySaving]

My Dad and Mom were waiting, suitcases packed, for my brother and his wife. They were all going on a trip somewhere (can't recall). This was to celebrate his retirement just weeks previous. He was 61 when he dropped dead on the living room floor that morning.

OMG!! What a story! Definitely puts life and retirement into perspective

 

[SJhawkins]

I'm half way through the book, the concepts make some sense but dang it's going to be tough to finish.

While I understand the need sometimes to explain the same thing over in multiple ways its starting to become a little redundant.

Not sure how much more of my life energy I want to spend on the book, lets hope chapter 7 picks up the pace!

 

[NXR7]

You should try to die with less than zero.

I have a friend who is a magistrate in the local probate court. I told him that joke about how "You know your financial planning was good when the last check you ever write bounces."

He looked at me with scorn and said they routinely handle estates with several hundred thousands of dollars and more of debt and no assets to pay it off. He said a person can truly live well beyond their means in America.

So why try to die with zero when you can die with a lot less than zero?

 

[PatrickA5]

I'm half way through the book, the concepts make some sense but dang it's going to be tough to finish.

While I understand the need sometimes to explain the same thing over in multiple ways its starting to become a little redundant.

Not sure how much more of my life energy I want to spend on the book, lets hope chapter 7 picks up the pace!

Ha! Don't hold your breath! As I recall, he basically said the same thing over and over and over again. There were two or three good points in the book which could have been presented in a short article.

 

[Rianne]

You should try to die with less than zero.

I have a friend who is a magistrate in the local probate court. I told him that joke about how "You know your financial planning was good when the last check you ever write bounces."

He looked at me with scorn and said they routinely handle estates with several hundred thousands of dollars and more of debt and no assets to pay it off. He said a person can truly live well beyond their means in America.

So why try to die with zero when you can die with a lot less than zero?

Is the spouse the only person responsible for a person's debts after death? If my DH racked up hundreds of thousands of debt without my knowledge, would I be responsible for that debt?

 

[target2019]

The problem with the Western capitalist mindset is that it instills within the psyche of its proponents the following notion... maximize wealth to maximise happiness and persist with this until the point of death.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/mission-die-zero-rahul-mahajan/

You can find interesting takes on the subject book at various sites.

The author of the LinkedIn article I included (Rahul Mahajan, teacher of economics) has included one of the "money shots" from the Perkins book. It's a screen or two down the page.

 

[Kings over Queens]

That’s not what the book is saying. The author gives equal importance to money, health and time and suggests that prudent management of all three throughout the entirety of life is what has the best chance of leaving you with zero regrets at your death bed.

This is what I took away from the book, and in my opinion, a great summation.

Its so much more than about "money."

 

[mickeyd]

I stumbled on the book because the author is a celebrity poker player and watching poker shows is one of my time-wasting habits.

I play Blackjack here @ our CCRC regularly. It is a wonderful way to challenge your mind and to learn more about RISK and how to work with it. (Always split aces and eights)

 

[athena53]

I just did a "Die with Zero" thing and it feels good.

A friend is pastor of a historic church (former President was married there early in the 20th century) and it needs a lot of work. It's on the National Register of Historic Places so they should be able to get some grants and matching funds from other sources but they're about to launch a $250K capital campaign- about 3 X their usual annual income from collections. Charitable donations are always a question of priorities and many would put church buildings at the bottom of their list but I love old churches, I want it to be available for those who want to worship but don't have the funds to support it, and they run a "necessities pantry" and a thrift shop for the community.

So- I told her what I wanted to donate. She got tears in her eyes she was so happy. It's sitting in my donor-advised fund so I'm not skimping on my grocery bill or the travel budget. If they allow pledges over two years I may add to it.

Sometimes it truly is more blessed to give than to receive and it's also a blessing to do it "live" and see the impact.

 

[Phroig]

^^^
Very nice!

 

[kongmen]

I just did a "Die with Zero" thing and it feels good.

A friend is pastor of a historic church (former President was married there early in the 20th century) and it needs a lot of work. It's on the National Register of Historic Places so they should be able to get some grants and matching funds from other sources but they're about to launch a $250K capital campaign- about 3 X their usual annual income from collections. Charitable donations are always a question of priorities and many would put church buildings at the bottom of their list but I love old churches, I want it to be available for those who want to worship but don't have the funds to support it, and they run a "necessities pantry" and a thrift shop for the community.

So- I told her what I wanted to donate. She got tears in her eyes she was so happy. It's sitting in my donor-advised fund so I'm not skimping on my grocery bill or the travel budget. If they allow pledges over two years I may add to it.

Sometimes it truly is more blessed to give than to receive and it's also a blessing to do it "live" and see the impact.

Truly awesome! You get to participate because you're alive

 

[target2019]

I just did a "Die with Zero" thing and it feels good.

A friend is pastor of a historic church (former President was married there early in the 20th century) and it needs a lot of work. It's on the National Register of Historic Places so they should be able to get some grants and matching funds from other sources but they're about to launch a $250K capital campaign- about 3 X their usual annual income from collections. Charitable donations are always a question of priorities and many would put church buildings at the bottom of their list but I love old churches, I want it to be available for those who want to worship but don't have the funds to support it, and they run a "necessities pantry" and a thrift shop for the community.

So- I told her what I wanted to donate. She got tears in her eyes she was so happy. It's sitting in my donor-advised fund so I'm not skimping on my grocery bill or the travel budget. If they allow pledges over two years I may add to it.

Sometimes it truly is more blessed to give than to receive and it's also a blessing to do it "live" and see the impact.

Truly inspiring!

Among people who read personal finance books, many save a high percentage of their income through most of their careers. One thing that eventually happens for some such people is that they reach a point at which they realize they have not only saved Enough, they have saved More Than Enough. Their desired standard of living in retirement is well secured, and it’s likely that a significant part of the portfolio is eventually going to be left to loved ones and/or charity. https://obliviousinvestor.com/more-than-enough/

I purchased "More Than Enough" as a followup to Die With Zero, so that we could read about ways to spend down what we call "more than enough." The book is short, I'd call it a guide. Just more reinforcement.

 

[athena53]

I purchased "More Than Enough" as a followup to Die With Zero, so that we could read about ways to spend down what we call "more than enough." The book is short, I'd call it a guide. Just more reinforcement.

I like that wording better than "Die With Zero". That's cutting it too close! My top financial priority is not outliving my savings but I definitely have "more than enough".

 

[LateToFIRE]

Is the spouse the only person responsible for a person's debts after death? If my DH racked up hundreds of thousands of debt without my knowledge, would I be responsible for that debt?

Unfortunately, there is no simple answer to your question. It depends on the country/state you live in, where your assets are, how your assets and debt were held, etc. Too many variables to say. But, in general, unless you have worked with an attorney to shelter your assets and segregate your liabilities, I would assume that the surviving spouse is incentivized to repay the debts whether legally obligated or not.

For example, you may not be directly liable but creditors may be able to go after valuable assets that you would want to inherit from the deceased. Conversely, a different example was when a relative of mine was the beneficiary of an estate that was pretty much insolvent, they stood to inherent some property with a bank lien against it. There was some equity value in the property, but barely enough to satisfy all the creditors. They would have been taking on the risk of selling the property to satisfy all the debt. So, they let it go, rejected the inheritance, the banks took it, auctioned it off, end of story. They had no legal obligation with respect to the debts, but also did not receive their inheritance either. Other relatives were mad about not keeping the property in the family, but c'est la vie.

 

[all4j]

If my DH racked up hundreds of thousands of debt without my knowledge, would I be responsible for that debt?

As other said, this isn't a simple question, but would offer a general guideline. It has to do with how the debt was obtained. That is, individual or joint. If DH bought a car using his name & credit only, it would be different than if it was bought with both your names as joint owners. Slight twist to that would be for back taxes in that you might not think of that as incurring debt. But, property tax on jointly owned property, income tax filing, etc that weren't paid would fit into that concept

 

[Route246]

I'm also a late starter, spent a good portion of my early career on the road as a road warrior and did some crazy stuff with nobody to answer to back then, hence, so much is out of my system (travel, acquiring toys, experiencing fun stuff, etc.).

I get it if you started early and were deprived of this. Explains the varying wish lists.

I read the book ages ago, so don't recall much of it, but get the basic idea. I somewhat agree with the premise, but I'm not exactly an early retiree. At ~60, just now looking to pull the ripcord. Was FI at age 50, but waited for a few reasons:

1) I'm a late starter. Did a lot of crazy adventure stuff and screwing around in my 20's, so needed to hustle hard to catch up financially.

2) Career has been quite a grind, but an exciting one. And since it has been relatively high-income and involved a fair amount of travel, has allowed wife and I to indulge a lot of the experiences a lot of people wait to do in retirement. As a result, my bucket list not very long.

3) Really, my life, career, and business ventures in general have been an adventure, it's been tough at times, but very gratifying. Certainly not boring.

4) NW really took off the past 10 years, like practically tripled, owing to right assets, right place, right time, and some bold but informed risk taking during the recovery from the Great Recession.

I guess that's the other thing, 10 years ago for me would have been still in the shadow of that massive downturn, so would have been difficult to feel secure about the future at that time. And then just as I was about ready, COVID hit and threw another wrench in the works - my peps needed my help and I could not abandon them in the midst of a crisis.

But, all good things must come to an end, and time for that ~20 year stretch to begin. It is indeed scary to think about how short that sounds when I think about how quickly the past 20 years went by. But, like I said, those last 60 years have been an adventure, really don't think I'd change it.