The Electric Vehicle Thread

[braumeister]

There is probably something I'm not understanding correctly, but the way I see it, based on my ICE travels, is that I would not want to get to a charger with less than 20% charge. That's because there is always a chance it will be unavailable, subject to a power blackout, whatever. I always fill up my ICE car by the time I reach 20% of a tank, so I think that's a good rule of thumb.

Due to the charging speed and battery capacity, everyone seems to say that you would only charge to about 80% on a road trip, so going from 20% to 80% means that I would only have 60% of the advertised range. An EV with a 300 mile range would in reality only have 180 miles between charging stops, which is far less than my ICE car range. On top of that, each stop would take far longer than a gasoline fill.

For someone like me who takes a number of road trips each year, it seems like an EV used for a 600 mile travel day would take up to two hours longer than with an ICE. Not a very attractive prospect.

 

[Zathras]

There is probably something I'm not understanding correctly, but the way I see it, based on my ICE travels, is that I would not want to get to a charger with less than 20% charge. That's because there is always a chance it will be unavailable, subject to a power blackout, whatever. I always fill up my ICE car by the time I reach 20% of a tank, so I think that's a good rule of thumb.

Due to the charging speed and battery capacity, everyone seems to say that you would only charge to about 80% on a road trip, so going from 20% to 80% means that I would only have 60% of the advertised range. An EV with a 300 mile range would in reality only have 180 miles between charging stops, which is far less than my ICE car range. On top of that, each stop would take far longer than a gasoline fill.

For someone like me who takes a number of road trips each year, it seems like an EV used for a 600 mile travel day would take up to two hours longer than with an ICE. Not a very attractive prospect.

In my experience, it hasn't worked like that at all.
First, while charging 0-80% is the fastest part of the charge, there is nothing saying you can't go below 20% as long as the charging network is reliable (Tesla's is) and that your in-car remaining estimate is reliable (Tesla's is).

In our trips (ranging from 5000 mile cross country trips to 500 mile regional ones) we have never found a single charging stall not working, much less an entire station. Such incidents have happened, but they are very uncommon to almost unheard of.

On our trip to the west coast, we once spent 30 minutes waiting on the car to complete charging, for the entire trip.
Our typical drive day was 600 miles and at the end of the day, I was wide awake and would have kept driving if we weren't already at our planned stop. This never used to happen when driving a gas vehicle long distances.

If someone needs to do the cannonball run, no, I wouldn't suggest a BEV. If they are OK enjoying the trip, I highly recommend it.

 

[Dawg52]

There is probably something I'm not understanding correctly, but the way I see it, based on my ICE travels, is that I would not want to get to a charger with less than 20% charge. That's because there is always a chance it will be unavailable, subject to a power blackout, whatever. I always fill up my ICE car by the time I reach 20% of a tank, so I think that's a good rule of thumb.

Due to the charging speed and battery capacity, everyone seems to say that you would only charge to about 80% on a road trip, so going from 20% to 80% means that I would only have 60% of the advertised range. An EV with a 300 mile range would in reality only have 180 miles between charging stops, which is far less than my ICE car range. On top of that, each stop would take far longer than a gasoline fill.

For someone like me who takes a number of road trips each year, it seems like an EV used for a 600 mile travel day would take up to two hours longer than with an ICE. Not a very attractive prospect.

I'm with you. I doubt I will buy one while I'm still taking long distance trips. But when I get to the point of mainly driving around town or short day trips(150 miles or less) I can see myself owning one.

 

[Chuckanut]

I am wondering who might be the first EV maker to equip their cars with the sodium ion batteries.

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/30/catl-reveals-sodium-ion-battery-with-160-wh-kg-energy-density/

Now CATL says its research has paid off with a new sodium-ion battery with an energy density of 160 Wh/kg. The company says it expects to boost that to 200 Wh/kg by the time large-scale commercial production begins in 2023.

To put energy density into perspective, the lithium-ion batteries used in the Tesla Model 3 have an energy density of about 260 Wh/kg, while the LFP battery cells Tesla uses come in the Model 3 Standard Range produced in China come in at around 200 Wh/kg.

But, I'm not so certain this is a good idea:

But that’s not the only good news. CATL says it has developed new battery management systems that will integrate lithium and sodium batteries in the same battery packs. That means manufacturers could create battery packs tailored to meet the needs of drivers in various climates — more sodium cells in Minneapolis, fewer of them in Mobile. More sodium cells also means cars could utilize more electricity from regenerative braking on cold days.

What if you live in an area where the summers are HOT and the winters are COLD? Swap battery packs when you swap to and from the snow tires? Maybe.

 

[aja8888]

I am wondering who might be the first EV maker to equip their cars with the sodium ion batteries.

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/30/catl-reveals-sodium-ion-battery-with-160-wh-kg-energy-density/


But, I'm not so certain this is a good idea:


What if you live in an area where the summers are HOT and the winters are COLD? Swap battery packs when you swap to and from the snow tires? Maybe.

Swapping batter packs that weigh near a ton is not (will not be) easy, especially since they are wired in and have liquid cooling systems running through the frame. Maybe someday...

Also, some new tech has the battery integral with the frame sections (birdcage) of the car. This is something GM is toying with.

 

[eytonxav]

Modern day equivalent of a 1970s gas line:

 

[Koolau]

Something I forgot to ask my son: What if you pull into a station and there are no chargers available - IOW all full. Obviously you have to wait for one to open up. But is there a "waiting line" to wait for the next available charger? IOW Are you assured of getting to charge in the same order you pulled into the station. I could imagine some friction if folks were spread around waiting and the first guy there got shut out by someone who came later. Any experience on this?

 

[Koolau]

Hah! Looks like DFW_M5 was answering my question just as I was asking it!

 

[Koolau]

Modern day equivalent of a 1970s gas line:

Looks like lots of chargers not being used or broken. How does that happen with such a line of cars waiting. Are those empty slots "slow chargers?" With the waiting line that long, SWAG is the last guy is waiting 2 hours just to get to a charger. Not fun. I hate waiting more than 10 minutes to get a gasoline pump at Costco though YMMV.

 

[eytonxav]

Looks like lots of chargers not being used or broken. How does that happen with such a line of cars waiting. Are those empty slots "slow chargers?" With the waiting line that long, SWAG is the last guy is waiting 2 hours just to get to a charger. Not fun. I hate waiting more than 10 minutes to get a gasoline pump at Costco though YMMV.

That is supposedly a Tesla super charging center in Calif.

 

[Koolau]

That is supposedly a Tesla super charging center in Calif.

So, I guess all those empty chargers are broken? That wouldn't be very good.

 

[Texas Proud]

BOLT EV GOES THE DISTANCE…WITH ONE PEDAL
Drivers can push range boundaries with selectable one-pedal driving modes
Progressively stronger levels of regen braking are employed in all Bolt EV driving through a series of four driver-selectable modes:

Operating in Drive and easing off the accelerator.
Operating in Drive and using the Regen on Demand paddle on the back of the steering wheel.
Operating in Low and easing off the accelerator.
Operating in Low and using the Regen on Demand paddle in tandem.
Number 1 provides the lowest level of regen braking and requires the use of the brake pedal to bring the vehicle to a complete stop. Numbers 2-4 are progressively stronger one-pedal driving modes that in certain driving situations allow a driver to stop the vehicle without using the brake pedal. (One-pedal modes do not eliminate the need to use the brake pedal altogether, especially in emergency situations.)

What about the brake lights? Do they go on when regen braking?

 

[ls99]

Modern day equivalent of a 1970s gas line:

Well, the upside is they are not idling like ICE cars. Perhaps they should do alternate days based on odd/even plate numbers.

 

[audreyh1]

What about the brake lights? Do they go on when regen braking?

Probably. They do in Teslas which use one pedal driving.

 

[audreyh1]

Something I forgot to ask my son: What if you pull into a station and there are no chargers available - IOW all full. Obviously you have to wait for one to open up. But is there a "waiting line" to wait for the next available charger? IOW Are you assured of getting to charge in the same order you pulled into the station. I could imagine some friction if folks were spread around waiting and the first guy there got shut out by someone who came later. Any experience on this?

Tesla tells you the status of upcoming chargers, how many used, how many operational. It shouldn’t be a surprise.

Yes, there are occasionally major holiday weekends in California where people have to wait in line to charge at certain superchargers, and people post videos about it. Usually orderly line waiting.

 

[NW-Bound]

Swapping batter packs that weigh near a ton is not (will not be) easy, especially since they are wired in and have liquid cooling systems running through the frame. Maybe someday...

Yet, Tesla managed to have an automated battery swapping station which was demonstrated in 2013. It took less than 2 minutes!

See video below.

It was really amazing. However, within a short time, Tesla had to shutdown the few trial battery swapping stations that were opened. Reason: people do not like to swap their own battery for an unknown one. I don't know how Tesla would honor the warranty.

It was said that JB Straubel, then Tesla Chief Technical Officer, talked Musk into dropping the battery swapping idea, and going into building a nationwide Supercharging network.


The Chinese are still going gunho with battery swapping. When the EV buyers opt for the battery swapping, the purchase price is reduced, and the battery is leased. There's still a charge for each instance of a battery swap. The leased battery can still be charged by the owner if he so desires.

Also, some new tech has the battery integral with the frame sections (birdcage) of the car. This is something GM is toying with.

To Tesla's credit, they announced the above idea first. Many manufacturers are now doing this.

 

[Koolau]

Well, the upside is they are not idling like ICE cars. Perhaps they should do alternate days based on odd/even plate numbers.

Actually, son runs his AC or heat when waiting in his car - Don't know if you call that idling, but it certainly uses some electricity from the battery.

Heh, heh, Can you imagine being required to wait for a whole day to recharge on your way from NYC to LA?

 

[NW-Bound]

Actually, son runs his AC or heat when waiting in his car - Don't know if you call that idling, but it certainly uses some electricity from the battery.

Heh, heh, Can you imagine being required to wait for a whole day to recharge on your way from NYC to LA?

It's only bad if you have to wait a whole day each time you recharge.

Better find recharging stations that have a nearby motel. Or if you plan to sleep in the car, be sure there are toilet facilities nearby.

Out of curiosity, I searched on YouTube, and here's the experience of an EV owner in Spain (posted May 15, 2022). This guy said to install as many apps on your phone as you find. The charging stations are accessed via the apps, and most of them just don't work - whether it's the app or the charger is immaterial.

If Europe wants more drivers to buy EVs, there has to be a better infrastructure. It's a long time until I would want to rent an EV in Europe.

By the way, they bill by kWh, and it's from 0.30 euro to 0.59 euro per kWh. And some even have varying rates based on time-of-day demand and the availability of power from windmills. But the same as filling with gas, you can fill up with 1 or 2 euros worth. There's no per-session fee.

 

[Koolau]

It's only bad if you have to wait a whole day each time you recharge.

I certainly hope you are kidding. No way would anyone buy an EV if they EVER couldn't recharge it for a day and have to seek shelter/bathroom for the night. EVs would be pushed back 20 years. Even if gas gets to $8/gallon, it would be cheaper than taking 4 days to do a 2 day trip with two motels to rent for 2 nights.

 

[RobLJ]

I think this will be long term trend for two car families. You'll start to see used ICE vehicles ten years old with 25,000 miles on the clock. For most people, long trips are an exception. Eventually long trip, ICE vehicles may just be rentals.

We use the Bolt for trips below 200 miles; the RAV PHEV for trips above. We are lucky to be able to afford two vehicles. I suspect the charging infrastructure is dramatically changing, and in the next 4-5 years will not be much of a problem, although the drive to Canyonlands, Utah 3 weeks ago (or to east Nevada from Reno for that matter) would raise concerns now. The drive to see the grandkids/winemaker in the Central Valley is no longer an issue. The one problem in the Bolt is that the DC fast charging is not that fast compared to more recent EVs. It is still decent.

We have almost always charged the Bolt from home, which costs 8.25$ as opposed to the Forester it replaced which now would cost about 60$ for an equivalent drive range (unfortunately it required premium as much as I liked the Forester; the Bolt does not have AWD although the RAV does, so it doesn't affect us.) I did not foresee premium going up to 5.50/gallon, otherwise I would feel pretty smug, but I'm not that smart.

YMMV.

 

[explanade]

If Europe wants more drivers to buy EVs, there has to be a better infrastructure. It's a long time until I would want to rent an EV in Europe.

I changed plans to visit Corsica because of widespread reports that two of the major agencies there are only renting EVs, causing travelers to be irate because they had booked a standard gas car.

There are complaints about not enough chargers too.

Small island but mountainous so if you drive more than a couple of hours, you may just barely make it.

Then you have to worry that your destination doesn't have chargers.

It's already difficult to find lodgings with nearby parking in Corsica or for that matter, much of Europe.

 

[NW-Bound]

I changed plans to visit Corsica because of widespread reports that two of the major agencies there are only renting EVs, causing travelers to be irate because they had booked a standard gas car.

There are complaints about not enough chargers too.

Small island but mountainous so if you drive more than a couple of hours, you may just barely make it.

Then you have to worry that your destination doesn't have chargers.

It's already difficult to find lodgings with nearby parking in Corsica or for that matter, much of Europe.

+1000

In total, I have driven more than 10,000 km through France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg, while staying mostly in Airbnb. When planning the trips, I spent the most time researching parking spaces. Even hotels often do not have parking spaces, paid or free.

It's only in the rural areas of Tuscany that a parking space is more readily available, and these are more farmhouses than standard city dwellings.

So, when they talk about pushing for more EVs, I really don't know how they are going to charge, as they don't even have a parking space at home that we take for granted here in the US.

PS. I forgot to include Andorra. It's a tiny country, but should also count.

 

[explanade]

I think I may have posted a video last year, about a guy driving a Model Y through Norway, among the fiords.

But they showed for instance Bergen I believe, where there was a parking structure and there were chargers at virtually every spot, so there were a lot of EVs in there.

Then superchargers everywhere and few were in use. I don't recall what time of the year the video was made but they had sunlight so it didn't seem to be winter, when there's very limited sunlight up there.

I'm sure parking in the city center of larger cities like Oslo and Bergen is very difficult and expensive.

But maybe there are some garages full of chargers like the ones depicted.

That's the charm of Europe, you have these villages, towns, cities which go back hundreds of years or more. But they were built before cars so they're not made to accommodate cars.

 

[braumeister]

I think I may have posted a video last year, about a guy driving a Model Y through Norway, among the fiords.

But they showed for instance Bergen I believe, where there was a parking structure and there were chargers at virtually every spot, so there were a lot of EVs in there.

Norway is a special case. AFAIK it has the lowest cost electricity in Europe, and the highest percentage of EVs sold. So you would expect lots of charging availability.

 

[eytonxav]

Sometimes assistance can come from unexpected places:https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/7/23158382/ford-f150-lightning-tesla-adapter-charger-power