The Electric Vehicle Thread

[ERD50]

How Much Range You Really Need in an Electric Car


FWIW, Our Pacifica Hybrid has a 34-mile EV range. We have exceeded it twice -- 32° temp required high heater use. It takes less than two hours to charge from depleted to full -- level 2 outlet.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...ally-need-in-an-electric-car/#ftag=MSFf70f0e2

Know your needs ...

A recent survey sponsored by Castrol found that a stout 319 miles of range is the mental tipping point for many US consumers to consider an EV. Assuming an average of 40 miles per day, that 319-mile range equates to needing a full charge only every six days, even assuming the driver never depletes their car's battery below 20%. For drivers who have access to home charging, this suggests a desire for range that is more emotional than rational. .....

This suggests to me..., that the authors are idiots. The "more emotional than rational" applies to them, more than the surveyed US consumer.

Using averages, w/o consideration of value of the occasional longer trips is just plain stupid. Sure, some people won't need the range - there are cars out there for them, the Leaf had ~ 100 mile range, right?

And some people can rely on a second car, but that does effectively cut into the value proposition of the EV.

It's a personal thing, only the buyer can weigh just how much range they need. But then, there is resale value to consider - if the average person wants more range, that could cut into your resale value.

Do some people over-state the importance of range? Sure. Just like some people over-state the importance of 0~60 times, 4-wheel drive, 20 inch tires, etc. Nothing new here.

-ERD50

 

[ken830]

The first time I saw Tesla's needlessly gimmicky door handles, I knew I'd never want one. Now a lawsuit blames them for a doctor's death in a fiery crash. https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/lawsuit-teslas-door-handles-blamed-for-broward-doctors-death/2770024/

This is just a great example of how people like to blame anyone/everyone else rather than accept responsibility. The Model S's mechanical backup door release shares the same handle on the inside of the door as the electronic door release.. you just pull it a bit further to engage the mechanical release and it feels like any other car's normal door handle. If they couldn't even break the window, then the situation is no different than any other car.

 

[Chuckanut]

Well, those single people should better not wander too far from their home, so they can own a short-range EV.

Or they can have 2 cars, one being an ICE car or a longer-range EV. You can have 2 lesser cars, for the price of a fancy one.

Or if they want to go on a road trip, then rent a different car with a better range than their own.

Money can solve a lot of problems.

The economics of being single are such that many of the above suggestions are not realistic for many single people.

Or, maybe single people should just eat more cake.

Back on topic, What about those new batteries that require no lithium and use lead instead? I keep hearing they may promise cheaper EVs, though at the expense of driving range and 'lighting' acceleration.

 

[Popeye]

This is just a great example of how people like to blame anyone/everyone else rather than accept responsibility. The Model S's mechanical backup door release shares the same handle on the inside of the door as the electronic door release.. you just pull it a bit further to engage the mechanical release and it feels like any other car's normal door handle. If they couldn't even break the window, then the situation is no different than any other car.

Yeah, forget the handle. The article says the guy was speeding and DUI! But it’s the handles fault.

 

[Koolau]

This is just a great example of how people like to blame anyone/everyone else rather than accept responsibility. The Model S's mechanical backup door release shares the same handle on the inside of the door as the electronic door release.. you just pull it a bit further to engage the mechanical release and it feels like any other car's normal door handle. If they couldn't even break the window, then the situation is no different than any other car.

Couple of years ago, I started carrying a window breaker - just in case. Living while surrounded by water got me thinking (and then I watched a rerun of Myth Busters.)

IIRC there were ICE cars that the electronic doors could trap occupants if the electricity were interrupted. In any case, back-up and back-ups to back-ups are a good idea though YMMV.

 

[NW-Bound]

Back on topic, What about those new batteries that require no lithium and use lead instead? I keep hearing they may promise cheaper EVs, though at the expense of driving range and 'lighting' acceleration.

Noooo, no lead. And they still use lithium.

They are lithium-iron-phosphate, LiFePO4, or LFP (lithium ferrous phosphate).

They are not new to the Chinese, but new to Tesla and other Western auto makers.

Lithium is not expensive. It's the nickel and particularly cobalt that are expensive in the EV cells, and also cells for phones, cameras, laptops, and all electronic gadgets.

 

[GTFan]

The internet needs to stop getting excited by vaporware EVs:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/05/the-internet-needs-to-stop-getting-excited-by-vaporware-evs/

Yep, been a continuing issue for a long time but at least some other-than-Tesla models are going out the door now. Not enough, but better than vaporware.

 

[NW-Bound]

Vaporware EVs sell stocks.

 

[aja8888]

EV SPACs Warn about Running Out of Cash: The Beginning of the End

Electric Last Mile Solutions, an EV startup that went public in June 2021 via merger with a SPAC, disclosed Friday, May 27, afterhours – when everyone was already off for the long Memorial Day Weekend – that it wouldn’t run out of money sometime between July and September, as it had disclosed two months ago, but instead it would run out sometime in June – that its cash wouldn’t even last through June, but only “into June.”

In February, CEO James Taylor and Chairman Jason Luo, both co-founders, were forced out, effective on the spot, after an internal probe into share purchases that they’d made just before the company announced that it would go public via merger with a SAPC in December 2020.

https://wolfstreet.com/2022/05/30/e...-for-the-craziest-stock-bubble-ever/#comments

Yeah, keep investing in this crap.

 

[Luvtoride]

My Model Y delivery date was just updated to June 6-10…after waiting almost 3 months it looks like I will finally have a car to go with my level 2 charger (received my NJ PSE&G rebate for installation already).

Now have a “firm” delivery appointment on June 8th (they were pretty accurate) for my Tesla.

Sold my current Lexus leased vehicle to a Mercedes dealer today and will net almost a $7k profit (about $3k more than Tesla offered as a trade-in).

Elon sure know how to make you anxious to finally get delivery of your car after “patiently” waiting for over 3 months [emoji2359]

 

[DallasGuy]

fyi. Chevy announced today that they'll be dropping the prices of the 2023 Chevy Bolt EV and Chevy Bolt EUV's by about $6,000. I was actually close to buying a 2022 yesterday but didn't pull the trigger. Glad I didn't. I can wait another 5-9 months (or however long it takes to get a 2023) in order to save $6,000!

Perhaps other car makers will try to compete with Chevy and start releasing more affordable EV's. Most of them seem to be priced out of the reach of most consumers.

https://www.engadget.com/gm-2023-chevy-bolt-ev-euv-price-cut-193132395.html

And the official word from Chevy...

https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/bolt-euv/2023.html

 

[NW-Bound]

It's good to see EVs getting less expensive.

Looking at the fact sheet of the GM Bolt, I read something that I don't understand.

Why should Regen be "on demand"? For EVs and hybrids, is that not standard operation all the time whenever you brake?

Regen on Demand allows conversion of kinetic energy
into energy stored within the battery for future use,
with a simple pull on a steering wheel-mounted paddle

 

[Koolau]

It's good to see EVs getting less expensive.

Looking at the fact sheet of the GM Bolt, I read something that I don't understand.

Why should Regen be "on demand"? For EVs and hybrids, is that not standard operation all the time whenever you brake?

Yeah, I assumed regen was alway "on" whenever you applied the brakes. Why wouldn't it be?

 

[ERD50]

It's good to see EVs getting less expensive.

Looking at the fact sheet of the GM Bolt, I read something that I don't understand.

Why should Regen be "on demand"? For EVs and hybrids, is that not standard operation all the time whenever you brake?

I'm guessing that's just a marketing term? The "on demand" is anytime you put the brakes on (assuming the battery isn't already 'full')?

-ERD50

 

[audreyh1]

Yeah, I assumed regen was alway "on" whenever you applied the brakes. Why wouldn't it be?

On Teslas regen braking starts as soon as you lighten up on the accelerator pedal thus allowing one pedal driving.

 

[Zathras]

It's good to see EVs getting less expensive.

Looking at the fact sheet of the GM Bolt, I read something that I don't understand.

Why should Regen be "on demand"? For EVs and hybrids, is that not standard operation all the time whenever you brake?

Regen is handled differently by different manufacturers.
I believe the Bolt uses paddle shifters on the steering wheel to control the amount of regen.
Tesla places all regen on the accelerator pedal.
Toyota (in the hybrids and PHEVs) has regen on the brake pedal. So when first depressing the brake, regen kicks in, and as you depress it further the physical brakes activate.

In addition, most manufacturers have some type of setting for light/no regen or normal regen.

 

[Chuckanut]

On my RAV 4 Hybrid, taking the foot of the accelerator immediately starts a coasting process that show power flowing to the battery.

 

[REWahoo]

On my RAV 4 Hybrid, taking the foot of the accelerator immediately starts a coasting process that show power flowing to the battery.

And stepping on the brake increases the recharge rate significantly.

 

[travelover]

On my RAV 4 Hybrid, taking the foot of the accelerator immediately starts a coasting process that show power flowing to the battery.

My Escape hybrid was similar. I could increase the regen by applying the brake pedal very lightly so the actual brake pads were not contacting, but the brake light was activated.

 

[audreyh1]

On the Teslas, applying less pressure on the accelerator causes initial regen braking and starts slowing the vehicle, so the brake lights are activated. The more you reduce pressure, the more braking. You can bring the vehicle to a complete stop that way.

 

[Chuckanut]

And stepping on the brake increases the recharge rate significantly.

Yes. Very true.



Overall, the computer seems to do a good job of balancing gas vs electric power so the battery always has room for more charge. The algorithm for when to charge and discharge the battery must be very interesting. Real Geek stuff!



I do remember one very long downhill when the battery was fully charged and I still had a few more miles of downhill in front of me. Suddenly, I heard the engine start give a low rumbling sound as the computer switched on engine compression braking. By the way the gear select has the option for manually selecting compression braking.

 

[Chuckanut]

My Escape hybrid was similar. I could increase the regen by applying the brake pedal very lightly so the actual brake pads were not contacting, but the brake light was activated.

There are some interesting Hyper-Mileage tricks that can really increase the mpg. Alas, they probably also increase the chances the guy behind you will be overcome by road rage and strike back at you. Or the cops will pull you over and give you a sobriety test.

 

[Chuckanut]

The 6/4 edition of the WSJ had a story of two ladies who took a good road trip in a rented EV. They traveled from New Orleans to Chicago and back. They had a limited amount of time since one had to return to work. They drove 2000 miles in four days in a Kia EV6.

I am not a big fan of EVs at this time due mainly to the limited driving range and the long time needed to fill-er-up. I got the impression that 60% of the problems the ladies had were weakness in the EV charging network. But 40% were the ladies' poor choices. The first poor choice was to pick an EV to drive through an area that did not have a good supply of fast chargers that worked for their car.

You have to pick the right tool for the job. If the route is mostly made up level 2 chargers, maybe it's not good to pick a car that needs to be recharged often. Rent a hybrid instead.

If one must drive an EV for long distances in a limited time, get a Tesla and drive the routes with the most SuperChargers. Use the right tool for the job. Otherwise, they are doing what Mad Magazine once did when it 'tested' toasters and found out they did a lousy job of frying bacon.

 

[Koolau]

^^^^^^

I just keep coming back to a conclusion that Hybrids are still the sweet spot of the EV type vehicles. It's trending toward the plug-in hybrids, but that is still limited by the ability to charge them at home. I couldn't do it. Not in my Condo and not at the homestead. IOW full EVs have enough special requirements to make them (currently) unsuitable for a significant portion of the driving public. Plug-in hybrids can be used by anyone but their added feature of being plugged in may be "wasted." But standard hybrids are, for all intents and purposes just another ICE that get's great mileage without the driver even being particularly aware of the "magic" going on inside the vehicle.

My son drove his tesla from roughly Chicago to Galveston. I'm thinking that's 1000++ miles. He pulled an extremely small trailer - just a place to sleep. He took his 2 1/2 year old daughter with him. His experiences at super-charging stations was fairly good, but the trailer was sometimes problematic. When the station was more or less deserted, he could leave the trailer attached and simply pull in "sideways" (blocking a couple of chargers.) But when the lots were busy, he had to unhook the trailer and then go find an open charger. Once, he pulled in and while unhooking the very last charger was taken, making him wait an additional 20 or so minutes. Not the end of the world, but with a young'un on board, every minute counts 'cause she had only so many hours of car-time in her. Blowing an extra 20 minutes here or 45 minutes to charge there meant Son spent 3 days in the car instead of his expected 2 days.

An aside, my very last truly long trip was almost exactly 1000 miles. (I was 65 at the time - not an old 75 like now) but I drove straight through, stopping only for gas and food. IIRC I stopped twice for gas - extending the trip by maybe 40 minutes where son was stopping way more often and blowing the better part of 30 minutes each time.

Not knocking EVs but just presenting a limitation that ICE cars don't face in most situations. Now, how much did he save? At home he charges for 2 cents per mile. At superchargers its probably 13 cents a mile or a bit more or less. SO, money wise, he came out WAY ahead. But the cost of a full day (between the baby and the charging) is something folks need to be willing to adjust to. Very much a YMMV situation AND decision.

 

[ken830]

EVs, as with anything, will have some limitations obviously. But your son's experience sounds about right. Most of the limitations today is infrastructure based. An ICE would be much worse if the fueling infrastructure was worse.

The good thing about EV charging is that the infrastructure is cheap to deploy. And once deployed, it's relatively easy to maintain. A gas station is expensive to deploy, requires a constant stream of trucks to bring in fuel, human staff because it's dangerous, and every couple of decades, the underground tanks need to be replaced with considerable costs and downtime.

EV charging at home takes 2 second each day and is much more convenient than gas stations. Charging infrastructure at apartments and condos will improve over time as adoption and demand from residents increase. Charging infrastructure between destinations for road trips will improve and include stalls that accommodate trailers and other utility vehicles as the adoption increases. It's all relatively cheap and easy to deploy compared to the gas station infrastructure of today.

In a few decades, gas stations will all but disappear.