John, can you hear me applauding? I don't know if there is more stupid stuff going on than there used to be, or if my diminishing patience for it makes it seem like there's more. In my view, mindless bureaucracy as well as calculated sleaziness does appear to be growing exponentially, and the necessity of continuing to hone one's skills in fighting various battles seems to be growing along with it. Although I have a certain dread of it, I also find that a good fight keeps me on my toes and gets the blood flowing to my brain. I usually win too.
Throw a Fit, Get Better Service?
- Thread starter BigMoneyJim
- Start date
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I think I've detected the problem. There are only three thirds. Your bank theoretically doesnt exist. At least for you.
I've had good luck with most banks and financial type institutions, with the exceptions of american express and "paypal". Paypal is owned and operated by idiots and people aspiring to become idiots some day.
TH, you say you've had problems with paypal ? I find this interesting. I've been buying and selling stuff on ebay for several years now and joined paypal so people could use credit cards to pay me (hey, we all know how people LOVE to use credit cards, and its a one button pay, you can't beat the lazy aspect). Anyway, I would be interested in hearing what the problems are and if they are avoidable. So far, I've had very good luck with them. Was this before ebay bought them ? I was a member before the ebay buyout, but still had no problems. Please inform, I'd really like to know....
-pan-
-pan-
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Check out www.paypalsucks.com for some examples. The short answer is they frequently offer very little to no "protection" if theres a problem, they grab peoples money on a regular basis and wont let it go, and they're policies need some work.
As far as the credit card payments, I find a lot of buyers think they get credit card protection when they use them with ebay/paypal. They dont. Paypals job is to act as a payment clearing house, and most credit card companies wont pursue a "bad ebay deal" paid through paypal, as paypal DID do their job. Further, you agree to NOT file a credit card claim on a paypal transaction, and doing so may forfeit your account and its contents.
I had two fairly benign issues with them that were simply bad policy and inflexible bureacracy. I had a basic account...someone without the requisite 3rd grade reading ability tried to pay one of my ebay auctions by credit card, even though the auction says "no credit cards" for payment. Paypal offers to upgrade me for free to an account that takes a charge for a fee. Later I discover that they now assess fees on ALL transactions, not just the credit card ones, and I asked them to downgrade me back to a regular account...years go by...it happens again, and I figure "well, I'll upgrade, take the charge, pay the fee, and downgrade again". Well, no...apparently on page 379 of the "terms of service" they let you downgrade once, and only once. After that you're a full fee paying customer.
I didnt want to be a full fee paying customer. I'm a cheap bastard.
So now advised of the situation, I asked that they downgrade me as a courtesy, and I'd not upgrade again.
Nope.
Sooo...I said "If you dont, I simply wont use your service. So in essence, if you downgrade me, you'll continue to see revenues from my using your service to buy things...otherwise you'll see no money at all.". The response was that "no money at all" would be fine. So I asked them to delete my account and my financial information. Not the first time I've gotten the answer that "no money" was superior to "some money", nor the last.
Years go by....
It wasnt until I went to donate some money to Dory for this board, when the mechanism let me know that it was paypal and my credit card numbers were still on file with them. You know, the ones I asked them to delete. And I couldnt use the credit cards to donate without reactivating my paypal account. Fortunately Dory allows amazon payments, but I think they skim the heck out of them.
Turns out Paypal retains your credit card and bank account information INDEFINITELY, whether you're a customer any longer or not. I once again asked them to delete the information. Nope, according to page number 874 of the terms of service nobody reads, they can and will keep it. Forever.
I had just read the 30th "hacker steals credit cards from xxx web site" story of the month, and told them if they didnt delete my information, which was of no reasonable use, that I would close all the credit and bank accounts and reopen them under different account numbers, rendering the information no longer useful to them at all, and at considerable effort and inconveniece to myself. And assuring I would never, ever, ever be a paypal customer again.
"OK!" they said..."go ahead and do that...we wont delete your information!"
Three days later, none of it had any value to them. And I WILL follow up on my word. Money orders have worked just fine for me since, and although they're slightly more hassle...I dont have any worries about funny fees, lost financial information, or silly policies and bureacracies.
As far as the credit card payments, I find a lot of buyers think they get credit card protection when they use them with ebay/paypal. They dont. Paypals job is to act as a payment clearing house, and most credit card companies wont pursue a "bad ebay deal" paid through paypal, as paypal DID do their job. Further, you agree to NOT file a credit card claim on a paypal transaction, and doing so may forfeit your account and its contents.
I had two fairly benign issues with them that were simply bad policy and inflexible bureacracy. I had a basic account...someone without the requisite 3rd grade reading ability tried to pay one of my ebay auctions by credit card, even though the auction says "no credit cards" for payment. Paypal offers to upgrade me for free to an account that takes a charge for a fee. Later I discover that they now assess fees on ALL transactions, not just the credit card ones, and I asked them to downgrade me back to a regular account...years go by...it happens again, and I figure "well, I'll upgrade, take the charge, pay the fee, and downgrade again". Well, no...apparently on page 379 of the "terms of service" they let you downgrade once, and only once. After that you're a full fee paying customer.
I didnt want to be a full fee paying customer. I'm a cheap bastard.
So now advised of the situation, I asked that they downgrade me as a courtesy, and I'd not upgrade again.
Nope.
Sooo...I said "If you dont, I simply wont use your service. So in essence, if you downgrade me, you'll continue to see revenues from my using your service to buy things...otherwise you'll see no money at all.". The response was that "no money at all" would be fine. So I asked them to delete my account and my financial information. Not the first time I've gotten the answer that "no money" was superior to "some money", nor the last.
Years go by....
It wasnt until I went to donate some money to Dory for this board, when the mechanism let me know that it was paypal and my credit card numbers were still on file with them. You know, the ones I asked them to delete. And I couldnt use the credit cards to donate without reactivating my paypal account. Fortunately Dory allows amazon payments, but I think they skim the heck out of them.
Turns out Paypal retains your credit card and bank account information INDEFINITELY, whether you're a customer any longer or not. I once again asked them to delete the information. Nope, according to page number 874 of the terms of service nobody reads, they can and will keep it. Forever.
I had just read the 30th "hacker steals credit cards from xxx web site" story of the month, and told them if they didnt delete my information, which was of no reasonable use, that I would close all the credit and bank accounts and reopen them under different account numbers, rendering the information no longer useful to them at all, and at considerable effort and inconveniece to myself. And assuring I would never, ever, ever be a paypal customer again.
"OK!" they said..."go ahead and do that...we wont delete your information!"
Three days later, none of it had any value to them. And I WILL follow up on my word. Money orders have worked just fine for me since, and although they're slightly more hassle...I dont have any worries about funny fees, lost financial information, or silly policies and bureacracies.
Hey TH, thanks for the input. Yeah, I started using paypal as the freebie deal as well, then when I started selling upgrading to cc payments was the only way. People really like to just press buttons and wait for their package while you do all the work. I agree, the fees suck and they take em' on all transactions. I write it off as the cost of doing business online.
The lack of protection is interesting, I wasn't aware of this. For me, I don't worry about it too much, I sell more than buy, and like you would rather send a Money Order. As you know, it's better for the seller as he doesn't get slammed by fees, and sometimes you can negotiate a bit of a discount due to this....
Anyway, I'll check out the site, thanks for the info.
-Pan-
The lack of protection is interesting, I wasn't aware of this. For me, I don't worry about it too much, I sell more than buy, and like you would rather send a Money Order. As you know, it's better for the seller as he doesn't get slammed by fees, and sometimes you can negotiate a bit of a discount due to this....
Anyway, I'll check out the site, thanks for the info.
-Pan-
J
JOhn Galt
Guest
Hello Bob_Smith. Yep, I used to enjoy a good fight
and I almost always won too. Don't enjoy them so much now which is too bad as it seems I am
destined to continue to do battle right up until my
demise.
JOhn Galt
and I almost always won too. Don't enjoy them so much now which is too bad as it seems I am
destined to continue to do battle right up until my
demise.
JOhn Galt
BUM
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Recently I got my cc statement and the annual fee has risen to $70.00 To me thats not chump change. I called the 800 # and said that I wanted the fee waived. The rep said that all cards offering air miles had the fee (USAir).
Now I have been accumulating these miles for 10 years or so. My bride doesn't fly period. The beginnning of this post has a link to a Forbes article about how many companies use the NICE system to identify key words and attitudes to channel the call properly. So after asking the rep twice to credit the fee; and after being told no twice I said the magic phrase "cancel the card". I was immediately wisked to the CUSTOMER RETENTION DEPARTMENT. The rep was a real pro. Very knowledgeable and very helpful and she had the power to make sweeping account changes right then and there.
The bank, she sweetly explained, had 6 other types of cards, all without annual fees. "The one that might be best for you blah, blah, blah..."
Since I would have to replace the card anyway this seemed the path of least resistance. I settled on a card that offers points for hotels (the bride has to sleep somewhere). Hell I'm a cheap bastard too, who wants a card that offers nothing?
Bottom line here is I am not a good cc customer. Although I've had the card for more than 10 years with new monthly charges of four figures - I ALWAYS pay it off each month and NEVER carry a balance. The only money they make from me are the fees the sellers pay for the goods I buy -- not that much. So when I threaten to leave after 10 years, nobody really cares. I'm a lousy cc customer.
BUM
Now I have been accumulating these miles for 10 years or so. My bride doesn't fly period. The beginnning of this post has a link to a Forbes article about how many companies use the NICE system to identify key words and attitudes to channel the call properly. So after asking the rep twice to credit the fee; and after being told no twice I said the magic phrase "cancel the card". I was immediately wisked to the CUSTOMER RETENTION DEPARTMENT. The rep was a real pro. Very knowledgeable and very helpful and she had the power to make sweeping account changes right then and there.
The bank, she sweetly explained, had 6 other types of cards, all without annual fees. "The one that might be best for you blah, blah, blah..."
Since I would have to replace the card anyway this seemed the path of least resistance. I settled on a card that offers points for hotels (the bride has to sleep somewhere). Hell I'm a cheap bastard too, who wants a card that offers nothing?
Bottom line here is I am not a good cc customer. Although I've had the card for more than 10 years with new monthly charges of four figures - I ALWAYS pay it off each month and NEVER carry a balance. The only money they make from me are the fees the sellers pay for the goods I buy -- not that much. So when I threaten to leave after 10 years, nobody really cares. I'm a lousy cc customer.
BUM
J
John Galt
Guest
Hi BUM! As long as you are using the card and paying your bill, you are not
a "lousy cc customer". Trust me.
John Galt
a "lousy cc customer". Trust me.
John Galt
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Ah yes, the "customer retention department".
We'll let you get good and pissed, and when you've decided you no longer wish to be a customer, we'll give you what you asked for in the first place.
Fine long term business thinking certain to maintain good customer satisfaction.
They need to look into the statistics that say that once a customer or employee decides to leave, pacifying them with financial benefits usually will retain them, but not for long. Apparently once the mind is set, the follow through is simply inevitable.
We'll let you get good and pissed, and when you've decided you no longer wish to be a customer, we'll give you what you asked for in the first place.
Fine long term business thinking certain to maintain good customer satisfaction.
They need to look into the statistics that say that once a customer or employee decides to leave, pacifying them with financial benefits usually will retain them, but not for long. Apparently once the mind is set, the follow through is simply inevitable.
Lancelot
Full time employment: Posting here.
Well....
In another life I used to battle with customer service, write letters to the company CEO, etc, etc. I still don't want to be a dormat, but...
Since moving to Thailand, I've mellowed alot. Recently I applied for a member discount card at my local "Tops" supermarket. The drill is like this-before shopping, you insert your member card in a kiosk and receive a personalized shopping list of discounted items, based on one's previous purchases.
When I applied, I checked the "English" language box, but my shopping list has always been in Thai. My (Thai) reading skills are poor, so I asked for an english shopping list. "Mai dai" Cannot...
I sent a few e-mails to Customer service and a delightful Thai lady promptly returned my calls, advising me to return to the store and reapply... I did and they continued to say "Cannot..."
Finally, I have wised up.
While it's true that, for what ever reason, I have not received my shopping list in english, I am getting "personal" service from several svelte Thai ladies at Tops. They patiently translate the list for me and treat me to those radiant Thai smiles. The more helpless I apear, the more anxious they seem to please me.
I think I'll just continue to muddle through with my original "problem."
Lance in "no elproblemo" mode
In another life I used to battle with customer service, write letters to the company CEO, etc, etc. I still don't want to be a dormat, but...
Since moving to Thailand, I've mellowed alot. Recently I applied for a member discount card at my local "Tops" supermarket. The drill is like this-before shopping, you insert your member card in a kiosk and receive a personalized shopping list of discounted items, based on one's previous purchases.
When I applied, I checked the "English" language box, but my shopping list has always been in Thai. My (Thai) reading skills are poor, so I asked for an english shopping list. "Mai dai" Cannot...
I sent a few e-mails to Customer service and a delightful Thai lady promptly returned my calls, advising me to return to the store and reapply... I did and they continued to say "Cannot..."
Finally, I have wised up.
While it's true that, for what ever reason, I have not received my shopping list in english, I am getting "personal" service from several svelte Thai ladies at Tops. They patiently translate the list for me and treat me to those radiant Thai smiles. The more helpless I apear, the more anxious they seem to please me.
I think I'll just continue to muddle through with my original "problem."
Lance in "no elproblemo" mode
Hey TH,
Did you get an email about the PayPal class action settlement that's pending? If not, here's the gist:
"The Short Claim Form requires you to provide certain identifying information and sign a statement under penalty of perjury, which may be verified using PayPal's records, that you experienced an unauthorized or incorrect electronic transfer or an account limitation or denial of access to your account. If you make a timely, valid claim using the Short Claim Form, you will receive a payment of $50, unless the amount needed to pay all of the Short Form claims exceeds the Short Form Fund. In that case, the Short Form Fund will be divided equally among all Short Form Claimants. If the amount needed to pay all of the Short Form claims is less than the amount of the Short Form Fund, the money left over will be added to the Long Form Fund."
And then there's the long form... From what I've seen, there have been so many people burned by PayPal that they'll probably end up with a few cents each.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Funny you should ask.
Have the claims form open in another window right now and I'm waiting for it to come up so I can fill it in.
Yet another pathetic class action suit where the lawyers make all the money, however. My quick read says $1M distributed to all paypal customers for general aggravation, and another $8M to people they actually took money from.
Given the number of paypal customers, I imagine that will come down to $10-50 for people who may have lost thousands, and a buck or two for everyone else.
Its interesting to note that paypal "did nothing wrong, believes they did nothing wrong, isnt admitting any wrongdoing, however changed a bunch of statutes and operating procedures to meet legal guidelines."
[disgusted mutter]dickheads...[/disgusted mutter]
Have the claims form open in another window right now and I'm waiting for it to come up so I can fill it in.
Yet another pathetic class action suit where the lawyers make all the money, however. My quick read says $1M distributed to all paypal customers for general aggravation, and another $8M to people they actually took money from.
Given the number of paypal customers, I imagine that will come down to $10-50 for people who may have lost thousands, and a buck or two for everyone else.
Its interesting to note that paypal "did nothing wrong, believes they did nothing wrong, isnt admitting any wrongdoing, however changed a bunch of statutes and operating procedures to meet legal guidelines."
[disgusted mutter]dickheads...[/disgusted mutter]
