Vanguard - last straw?

[purplesky]

Yea, I guess I'm one of those technically challenged baby boomers that just can't self service themselves on the web.

33+ years in IT, the last 17 doing web development as a tech lead for a major financial institution with millions of customers, worked on website logon and registration, statements, online chat, collaborative browsing with a phone rep, etc., etc.

And I still can't figure out this web thing and have to call up. It's gotta be me.

And I have to be honest with you, in those 17 years of doing web development, we never had any bugs in our millions of lines of code that prevented customers from being able to self service themselves. Unlike the software industry in general, our software was just 100% perfect all the time.

It sounds like you are tech savvy. Using paper checks at Vanguard is kind of weird in 2022.

Baby boomers grew up using 800 numbers to get stuff done.
Younger investors have been handed technology that now just works.

So not surprising that younger investors do not like 800 numbers.

Baby boomers will sit on hold on a 800 number for 45 minutes and then throw a tantrum.
The real trick is to realize quickly that the company putting you on a 800 number hold is getting slammed with calls and calling back later is the better option.

Situational awareness and common sense should be used.
Realizing Vanguard is killing it and taking in Trillions of new $$.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

... Using paper checks at Vanguard is kind of weird in 2022...

... Younger investors have been handed technology that now just works ...

... Baby boomers will sit on hold on a 800 number for 45 minutes and then throw a tantrum ...

... Situational awareness and common sense should be used.

I will agree with you on that last one - I'm done talking with you.

 

[purplesky]

I will agree with you on that last one - I'm done talking with you.

Good luck to you.

Sorry if the Baby boomer comments offended you.

 

[Gumby]

So, now let's move on.

 

[target2019]

Yea, I guess I'm one of those technically challenged baby boomers that just can't self service themselves on the web.

33+ years in IT, the last 17 doing web development as a tech lead for a major financial institution with millions of customers, worked on website logon and registration, statements, online chat, collaborative browsing with a phone rep, etc., etc.

And I still can't figure out this web thing and have to call up. It's gotta be me.

And I have to be honest with you, in those 17 years of doing web development, we never had any bugs in our millions of lines of code that prevented customers from being able to self service themselves. Unlike the software industry in general, our software was just 100% perfect all the time.

Further down in this thread you mention getting checks from Vanguard. For a very long time we paid quarterly taxes from a tax-free MMF. I had my paychecks auto-deposited there during two jobs, so it was a nice solution for a short/medium term bucket.

Getting checks near the end was more difficult. I don't recall exactly why, but by then I was transitioning partially to Schwab, which has an actual bank. Vanguard eventually eliminated the short tax-free MMF for NJ. I moved the money to Schwab, and problem solved.

I think support for all the majors has taken a step down, in that there is slower response.

Web interfaces are tricky, as you know. We have so many different app and web interfaces that are not similar, and you probably have a knack for finding the poorly-designed buttons, and so on.

Usually I say, "Fuhgedaboutid" and move on.

 

[RetMD21]

You are missing the point .

Fidelity didn’t go to market drawing in investors on the virtues of indexing and how anyone can beat the pros ..

That ended up being false since most investors exhibit poor investor behavior which is why the morningstar investor numbers are always worse then the funds themselves got …..

Vanguard did not promote money mgmt much before they got in to it whole hog .

Then they released a study showing how poor investor behavior was the reason many investors lagged behind what having their money managed by them could do .

They have Been promoting their managed funds as well all over the place despite their claim to fame of indexing beats buying manged funds .


There is a pattern here ….as things they preached to us end up not being the case after all after they decide to promote what it is they want to promote.

What they did to us with our beneficiaries and tried to force us to get trusts was the last straw with them for me

No I think I get your point, Vanguard doesn't conform to your ideal which doesn't apply to any other company.

 

[Koolau]

Fortunately, we are blessed with lots of choices.

 

[Gumby]

Fortunately, we are blessed with lots of choices.

A wise observation. We should each do what we feel is best with our own money. No need to convince others that we are right.

 

[Texas Proud]

You wouldn't have low cost mutual funds from Fidelity if they didn't have to compete with Vanguard. Vanguard reduces investment expenses to cover costs while Fidelity will sell you a high cost closet index fund if you aren't paying close attention.

I don't understand why Vanguard doesn't have an option for beneficiaries on joint accounts, but a trust is one of several ways around this. I don't think they "tried to sell you a trust."

Vanguard has always had managed funds. I don't see the point myself. You are mad at Vanguard about this but give Fido, Schwab and the others a pass, since you hold them to a lower standard.

It is a fact that investors get less than the market return due to poor decision making. John Bogle promoted investing conservatively and "staying the course." It turns out that many people can't do it. They chase trends or overinvest in risky assets. When their funds go down they sell in a panic. Those people probably benefit from paying 0.3% for an individual to give them advice. I don't see the need for myself but it is probably good to make it available at Vanguard. Since those investors pay their way I can't understand why I would mind.


It's understandable that Vanguard is held to a higher standard but with the availability of ETFs it is great that you can invest in a Vanguard portfolio based at another broker.

I completely agree that Vanguard changed the course of the cost of mutual funds...


Schwab changed the course of brokerage firms with their low cost trades...


But Vanguard seems to have lost their way the last 5 or so years...


And yes, they are getting a huge amount of new money, but I think a lot of that is due to what they were... heck, I have not moved my money out yet so most of my new money goes into them... but I am not a happy camper either...

 

[RetMD21]

I think it is a little different in that Schwab decided to compete on cost when it became legal but Vanguard started low cost indexing.

It is interesting that Schwab's robots got caught keeping too much cash in managed portfolios to benefit the firm at the expense of investors. I haven't seen any threads here about final straws and Schwab. Double standard. https://citywireusa.com/registered-...-to-settle-robo-advisor-cash-charges/a2389734

 

[Koolau]

I think it is a little different in that Schwab decided to compete on cost when it became legal but Vanguard started low cost indexing.

It is interesting that Schwab's robots got caught keeping too much cash in managed portfolios to benefit the firm at the expense of investors. I haven't seen any threads here about final straws and Schwab. Double standard. https://citywireusa.com/registered-...-to-settle-robo-advisor-cash-charges/a2389734

I couldn't read very far into the article. I'm not sure if it required a membership.

I'm trying to understand what the infraction was. How can "cash" be bad? It must surely have been willful misconduct to incur that monetary penalty.

I alway hate to hear of things such as this. It's almost as bad as when a pharmaceutical company runs afoul of the FDA. We put our trust in people and it's not always warranted.

I know there are technical violations that happen all the time. Just think of driving your car - my BIL was a LEO and he said that any driver he wanted to pull over would give him an excuse inside of 6 blocks.

But willful infractions are so disappointing when we (especially here) taut our "favorite" house as perhaps imperfect but reasonably reliable and always honest. YMMV

 

[purplesky]

I think it is a little different in that Schwab decided to compete on cost when it became legal but Vanguard started low cost indexing.

It is interesting that Schwab's robots got caught keeping too much cash in managed portfolios to benefit the firm at the expense of investors. I haven't seen any threads here about final straws and Schwab. Double standard. https://citywireusa.com/registered-...-to-settle-robo-advisor-cash-charges/a2389734

Thanks for this info.

I have a 60/40 Schwab Intelligent porfolio and the cash portion seems very slow to rebalance sometimes. The portfolio did rebalance today. lol

I know Schwab makes their money off the cash portion. Some of the Schwab ETF expense ratios are kind of high.

Overall I am satisfied with the Schwab-robo portfolio.

 

[GenXguy]

I've been investing through Vanguard for over a decade, always using the website. It seems like I might have called them quite a few years back, but I don't remember why. I wouldn't know there were any concerns about Vanguard customer service if I hadn't been reading about it in retirement forums. Most people aren't hanging out here discussing their investments.

 

[RetMD21]

I don't have anything against Schwab in particular. I think you can do much worse than their robo advisor but this is what SEC said:

"Schwab claimed that the amount of cash in its robo-adviser portfolios was decided by sophisticated economic algorithms meant to optimize its clients’ returns when in reality it was decided by how much money the company wanted to make," said Gurbir S. Grewal, Director of the SEC’s Division of Enforcement. "Schwab’s conduct was egregious and today’s action sends a clear message to advisers that they need to be transparent with clients about hidden fees and how such fees affect clients’ returns."

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-104

 

[Helen]

Please post an update on your experience with the new rep. I am undecided if I should use the guy assigned to me or mostly ignore him. He seems to be hinting at using their paid advisory service. I’ve been bringing funds over to Fido but he seems unimpressed.

We saw the Fido rep on Friday. It was a good visit. He answered all of my questions and didn't try to push anything. He seemed quite knowledgeable and professional. I will write a email to the branch manager and let her know he's a keeper.

My spouse was very happy, the last time we met with a rep he couldn't answer any of my questions and didn't seem to understand things that I consider basic. He spent most of the time pushing an AUM service. We were there to have him pull our remaining Vanguard accounts to Fido. He made a lot of sloppy mistakes. I wrote an angry email to the branch manager.

 

[RetMD21]

Allan Roth on why he prefers Vanguard. Small things mostly. Policies about cash, payment for order flow, and securities lending. I don't think most investors are paying all that much attention


https://www.etf.com/sections/index-investor-corner/why-im-not-leaving-vanguard?

 

[Koolau]

Allan Roth on why he prefers Vanguard. Small things mostly. Policies about cash, payment for order flow, and securities lending. I don't think most investors are paying all that much attention


https://www.etf.com/sections/index-investor-corner/why-im-not-leaving-vanguard?

Thanks for the info. Customer service is certainly important. So is appropriate treatment of customers' assets. YMMV

 

[youbet]

And yes, they are getting a huge amount of new money, but I think a lot of that is due to what they were... heck, I have not moved my money out yet so most of my new money goes into them... but I am not a happy camper either...

I wonder when I invest in VTSAX, which I hold at Schwab, is that money included as "new money" to Vanguard? It's certainly new money to the Vanguard fund. But is it new money to the Vanguard brokerage?

More than half of my Schwab holdings are Vanguard funds.

 

[MRG]

I wonder when I invest in VTSAX, which I hold at Schwab, is that money included as "new money" to Vanguard? It's certainly new money to the Vanguard fund. But is it new money to the Vanguard brokerage?



More than half of my Schwab holdings are Vanguard funds.

The only way I've seen this measured is fund inflows. Now many brokerages already hold an inventory of popular funds, not sure if a pull from the brokerages inventory counts as inflow. Perhaps someone can add more details.

 

[youbet]

And no , they are not in your best interest despite they call you an owner

I own no Vanguard account. I do own very significant amounts of several Vanguard funds which I hold at Schwab. Does that make me a Vanguard owner like the folks who hold their Vanguard funds at the Vanguard brokerage?

It seems like there is a lot of confusion between Vanguard funds and Vanguard the brokerage house. Many of the comments in this thread intertwine the two and it's very confusing.

 

[mathjak107]

I own vanguard etfs through fidelity …I won’t use vanguard as my brokerage.

Bad service and bad policies

 

[jazz4cash]

We saw the Fido rep on Friday. It was a good visit. He answered all of my questions and didn't try to push anything. He seemed quite knowledgeable and professional. I will write a email to the branch manager and let her know he's a keeper.



My spouse was very happy, the last time we met with a rep he couldn't answer any of my questions and didn't seem to understand things that I consider basic. He spent most of the time pushing an AUM service. We were there to have him pull our remaining Vanguard accounts to Fido. He made a lot of sloppy mistakes. I wrote an angry email to the branch manager.

Thanks for the update. Seems like a long while since Fido has even tried to contact me which is unusual but not unexpected.

 

[RetMD21]

I own vanguard etfs through fidelity …I won’t use vanguard as my brokerage.

Bad service and bad policies

Right, you told us before that you didn't like the policy of no beneficiaries on joint accounts. You claimed that Vanguard "tried to sell us trusts"

Still, Vanguard passes on to investors the profits from securities lending and Fidelity just keeps them. It's good that you are happy with Fidelity customer service and if you avoid the bad products there and buy Vanguard ETFs maybe you get the best of both.

 

[Rianne]

Right, you told us before that you didn't like the policy of no beneficiaries on joint accounts. You claimed that Vanguard "tried to sell us trusts"

Still, Vanguard passes on to investors the profits from securities lending and Fidelity just keeps them. It's good that you are happy with Fidelity customer service and if you avoid the bad products there and buy Vanguard ETFs maybe you get the best of both.

Bold by me. I cannot imagine the mess created by beneficiaries on a joint account. Divorce for one and many other legal issues would bring lawsuits. If you had a joint account and one of you wanted to change that but the other didn't, VG would be in the middle. Huge mess. That's why we have an attorney and a living trust for our joint assets completely outside the VG family.

 

[travelover]

I own vanguard etfs through fidelity …I won’t use vanguard as my brokerage.

Bad service and bad policies