What would you do?

[OldandGrey]

Let me start by saying my wife and I are financially sound with a large sale upcoming that will allow us to move virtually anywhere in the world. We are torn as we live next door to both our sons. We own each of their homes outright. Side by side by side. Our has a small mortgage for tax purposes. We are 62 and 61 and in decent health, could be better but oh well! So here is our issue. Please feel free to comment good or bad. We aren’t like children we can take advice regardless.

We live next door to our youngest son and his family. They are both 34 years old. They have 1 daughter 9 years old who if not for Covid would be here every day, however she really doesn’t care about us, only what we give her things I am sad to say. He works half the time, several DWI’s and she lays around all day and does nothing. We own the home they live in and it’s a total wreck.

Our oldest son lives 2 doors down from us, in another home we own. He is disabled due to severe medical issues not of his accord. He draws SSDI and he pays us an amount he can pay us every month. He is separated from his wife but his children are very close to us and come over every other weekend, and they usually spend at least one night with nana and papa when they are with our son. They are 15 and 11.

We will soon have the means to move either very far away, or close by depending on what we find in a home we will purchase with cash, so we won’t have a mortgage payment again. We have mentioned to them we are thinking of moving away and the 15 year old is begging us to stay. I know how she feels, however once she finds out about boys I’m afraid the love we get from her will fly out the window and we will be stuck here, in our by then late 60’s, with less opportunities due to age related issues.
We have been basically supporting our youngest son since he moved out at 18. He is 34 now and his maturity is still that of a teenager’s. We are tired of buying him cars, paying light bills, water bills etc etc etc at least 75% of the time. We have tried cutting him off but we can’t stand to know our granddaughter will be without food, lights, or a way to go anywhere. Hence our mixed emotions on moving. Sometimes we feel like we can’t live another day here, and then again sometimes we feel like we need to stay to make sure everyone is safe and sound.

Oh we have tried to talk to our youngest son about getting help but he doesn’t listen. He is always willing to help us if we ask him to with things we can no longer do, but he will not keep a job. McDonalds is hiring less than 6 blocks away and he told he he would never work there! Yet he has no money! HELP!

I would love to move to Montana or maybe out of the country. Somewhere like Panama or Poland intrigues me. Other times I want to just move a couple miles away just to be close by, just in case. My wife is good with moving just about anywhere.

 

[Bamaman]

We can only imagine what you've put up with as you have a son that won't work--in a dynamic job market. You are (as we are) an enabler.

You can lead a horse to water, but that doesn't mean he's got the drive to drop his head to drink.

We have a 34 year old daughter that has no friends that have not been in jail or prison. And hard core drugs have been involved--to the point that the district attorney threatened to acquire the house I had her in. I had to have her evicted when she refused to leave. She finally got a job in a factory making okay money, but still couch crashes at people that are the bottom of the social scale. We're now raising her 10 year old daughter (permanently) in our retirement, and we have her 14 year old son every other weekend.

When we were burglarized twice and had my tools stolen out of my truck, we picked up and moved an hour away. We just had to have some peace of mind--and be close enough where we could run back and forth for doctor appointments, etc.

I suggest you consider moving an hour or so away--to a completely new community. And you need to give the freeloader 2 months to get a job and provide for his basic needs or you let him fall on his face. Only people not working now have no intentions to be anything but a drag on society. Politicians have made it too easy to be that way. You need to distance yourself physically and fiscally for your entire family's good.

 

[RetiredHappy]

On surface, your objective is to move, but I suspect the motivation is to move away from your (children's) problems.

With your 34-year son, tough love is called for. Tell him outright that you won't be supporting him indefinitely and it is stopping now. You can structure financial help in a way that every $2 he makes, you will match $1, capping off at $10K (or whatever amount you see fit) a year.

 

[street]

You got a tough issue that isn't going to get better on its own. I go along with the tough love way to handle the issue. I would sit him own and tell him you are done supporting him financially.

They will have to figure it out going forward how they make ends meet. Continuing on the same course is hurting them more than helping them. Just my opinion and good luck.

 

[rodi]

Tough situation... I like Bamaman's suggestion to move just far enough away and to let older son know the end of the money train is coming.

My older son is a lot younger (21) but was on a path to nowhere. After a disastrous college year he moved home. He thought he'd be able to sit home and play video games. We told him to stay with us he'd need to get a job and pay rent. So far so good - he's now out of the house, working 3/4 to full time, and going to community college. One of the reasons we set the boundaries so firmly, so quickly, was we witnessed a nephew move home after a divorce. He hasn't worked in a decade and is in his 40's and living with his parents. They aren't happy but don't know how to get him launched...

Sometimes 'kids' (in this case an adult) don't step up and take responsibility until forced. But it's hard to do and you feel terrible being harsh/mean/not supportive.

No easy answers...

 

[ivinsfan]

My suggestion is that you pay for some professional counseling. This would be for you and your wife. Some boundaries counseling might be helpful. You own a big part of these issues. As far as moving remember you can run but you can't hide. Good luck

 

[ILikeStarTrek]

For the younger son & family, I agree with the tough love approach. The hardest part for you will be sticking to your tough-love decision and not giving in to pay for your son's bills like you have always done in the past.

Have you *actually* seen them go without lights, water, food, and car, for any length of time? I bet you have always stepped in before any of this came about. Just stop doing that. Don't even give them any lecture, but just stop paying for their stuff and observe what happens. Hunger and thirst are powerful motivators. If they literally get to the point of having no food and water being cut off, I bet that job at McDonalds will look a lot better to them.

If you are worried about your granddaughter suffering from your son's decisions, make it clear to all three of them that your granddaughter is welcome to come eat meals with you and sleep on your spare bed or couch anytime. If she needs a ride to school, you will take her. But those offers do not extend to your son & wife, both of whom you expect to get jobs to take care of themselves or suffer the consequences.

I expect that your son & his wife will always live paycheck to paycheck and look like they are on the verge of disaster, but if you stop supporting them I bet they will do enough to keep their lights & water on and to keep food in the house. If after six months to a year, they still have water, power, and food (i.e. disaster has not befallen them), you may gradually have better peace of mind that they won't actually starve to death without you. That knowledge may open up one of two things: 1) If the main reason you want to move is to get out of the stress of their situation, maybe you will feel a bit less stressed so you won't have to move; or 2) If the main reason you want to move is to see the world, maybe you will feel like you can do that without leaving your granddaughter to go hungry.

So I'm suggesting you stay where you are for at least six months to a year while you exercise the tough love. In the meantime, you can also observe what happens with the other 15-yr-old granddaughter who is begging you to stay. If you're worried that she will feel differently when she discovers boys - in 1 more year, by age 16, in many states teens can get a drivers license and, driving or not, I believe most teens find one way or another to date. If she becomes boy-crazy, you have your answer about her. If not, maybe she is one of those unusually mature teens who don't experience the wild high school phase. Either way, in three years she will be age 18 and graduating from high school and probably either going off to college or at least getting a job and starting her adult life, so her spending time (or not) with you will look a lot different than it does now. If you move to Montana or Panama in a couple years, once she is 18 and if she has the time, you can buy her a plane ticket to come visit you.

The suggestion above for professional counseling could be good. At the very least, you could find some emotional support for tough love. There is also a saying, you get what you pay for. A professional counselor may be able to offer better advice than strangers on the internet!

 

[Calico]

For the younger son & family, I agree with the tough love approach. The hardest part for you will be sticking to your tough-love decision and not giving in to pay for your son's bills like you have always done in the past.

Have you *actually* seen them go without lights, water, food, and car, for any length of time? I bet you have always stepped in before any of this came about. Just stop doing that. Don't even give them any lecture, but just stop paying for their stuff and observe what happens. Hunger and thirst are powerful motivators. If they literally get to the point of having no food and water being cut off, I bet that job at McDonalds will look a lot better to them....

Indeed they are. As is the desire not to sit in the dark in your own house when you are perfectly capable of earning a living (as your son and DIL both are).

You will be absolutely amazed at what they are capable of when push comes to shove. But YOU have to give them the shove. They will never, ever, ever do it without being shoved.

Or you could not shove them, and end up like my grandparents did - supporting my mother for her entire life, until she passed in her early sixties, while they were in their mid-eighties.

 

[Sunset]

+ 1
I agree with what ILikeStarTrek said.

The Counseling will be for OP , so that OP can actually cut off the $$$ flow.

I think the 9yr old has been taught to get stuff from the grandparents as in : "you want a new shirt, go ask the grandparents as they are RICH".

 

[Jerry1]

My suggestion is that you pay for some professional counseling. This would be for you and your wife. Some boundaries counseling might be helpful. You own a big part of these issues. As far as moving remember you can run but you can't hide. Good luck

The suggestion above for professional counseling could be good. At the very least, you could find some emotional support for tough love. There is also a saying, you get what you pay for. A professional counselor may be able to offer better advice than strangers on the internet!

The answer is simple. The implementation is brutal. I agree with the counseling. You need someone to help you devise a plan and, even more important, to be there to support you through it. Tough love sounds great. And, I agree that is what’s called for. However, are you prepared to see your family members become homeless? Homeless with your grandkids? This couldn’t be more serious and you need to find help. We can all give you advice, but you’re the one who has to do something. I’m sure in your mind you already know what you should do but in your heart, you have a serious conflict. We all would.

I wish I could direct you to the right type of person or group, but I don’t know who that would be. So, in answer to your question of “What would I do?”, I would start researching what type of help is out there. One on one counseling would probably be my starting point, but I would also be looking for some type of support group like that in Alcoholics Anonymous. When this gets tuff, and it will, you’re going to need help.

Outside of that, pull the plug, move away, don’t tell anyone where you’re going, work through an agent to sell your properties, turn your back on your family and save yourself. Physically the easiest path, mentally probably one of the worst.

I sincerely wish you well. There is some of this in my extended family and I can tell you that ignoring it and “living” with it is not an easy path either. It’s just a different form of pain and suffering. Please get some help.

 

[ivinsfan]

Great post Jerry,family counseling might be a good start. Mom Dad,counselor In my experience very often a couple doesn't have the same point of view. For this family to get in such an extreme situation either Mom or Dad was probably OK with it. That's the first step IMO

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I don't think simply moving is going to solve the issue with your youngest son. We have a friend with a son on the other side of he country with the same issues. Your son will still be broke and you still have your granddaughter to think about, even if you moved to another country.

Could your son be suffering from depression? That is just something to consider and possibly get evaluated.

We found contracts with our kids helpful. Like we will pay for X, as long as they do Y. One has moved back home once or twice as an adult due to job changes or for housing reasons, which we are fine with, but we always made it clear they still had to pay a small amount of rent, and be doing something full-time, whether it was going to school, working or some mix of the two. You seem to know you are a big part of the problem with your son and wife, so you are going to have to be part of the solution as well. Moving away and cutting him off cold turkey at this point doesn't seem fair to me. I'd go with family counseling (including your son) with contracts on what you expect him and the wife to do, and what you will pay for in the interim, to ease them back into the workforce and eventually completely off the family payroll and into a home where you aren't the landlord.

The book The Millionaire Next Door has good advice on what the author calls "economic outpatient care."

 

[OldandGrey]

Oh we know this is our fault. Unfortunately we kept enabling him since he was kicked out of the Air Force during boot camp. His reason for discharge was he had passive aggressive disorder. We felt sorry for him and it started then. It’s only gotten worse, however there have been several times where he actually worked over a year without us having to help very much at all. We have bought him I believe 7 or 8 nice vehicles that he has either wrecked or blown the engines up and made them worthless. We bought him 2 nice mobile homes and told him all he had to do was pay the lot rent, water bill, and the light bills. We always ended up paying something every month until he would move out and we had to sell them both. Did I mention they were almost inhabitable when he moved out. He got married to a girl exactly like him, but worse. She can’t function unless she has joint to smoke, and then she is barely functioning. Her daughter who is 16 from a previous relationship is more mature than she is, but she is “woke” and she thinks of us as evil white folks, even though we have paid for her education since the day they started living together.
When we try to reason with our son his immediate reaction is “I never asked you to do anything!” They we’re both doing coke for several years, and even though I was once a detective in Law Enforcement, I failed to see the signs and had to be told by my brother, which he let slip out during a conversation about what to do with him and her.
They got married 2 years ago. She had our granddaughter 9 years ago. She refuses to try to get a job, she doesn’t keep the clothes cleaned, doesn’t cook meals, except microwave crap. She has made her 16 yo daughter look after her 9 year old since day one. It’s one huge mess. They live in my wife’s ancestral home. When she inherited it the renters had let their dogs and cats basically destroy the floors and cabinets in the home. We had them evicted and we had to redo the original hardwoods and completely demolish the kitchen down to the floor joists due to the urine smell. That cost us quite a bit of money. After it was back to being in good condition again he needed a place again and against my wife’s advice I allowed him to move in, with the stipulation he keep it clean or get evicted himself. Well several years later the house is again a wreck. When we told him he needed to clean it up, get a job he said he couldn’t get a job and he guessed he would get a tent and move down to our farm and live in it. I should have said go then, but I didn’t. He can’t drive, no license for 5 years. She won’t get a license due to laziness. He has ADHD and ADD as does our 9 yo granddaughter. We are in a fine pickle aren’t we.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Oh we know this is our fault. Unfortunately we kept enabling him since he was kicked out of the Air Force during boot camp. His reason for discharge was he had passive aggressive disorder. ...He has ADHD and ADD as does our 9 yo granddaughter. We are in a fine pickle aren’t we.

Don't be so hard on yourself. There are links between ADHD, low dopamine levels, altered gut bacteria, and, well, a lot of the issues you mentioned. Low dopamine can cause mood issues, aggressive behavior and a lack of motivation. One study showed that people with low levels of dopamine stopped focusing on their goals and acted out aggressively. We're all more products of our gut bacteria than most people realize. If you work with a family counselor, perhaps you could start with this issue and put some incentives in place to encourage your son and family to seek medical help in this area. Healthy groceries and easy to prepare meals also might help, can't hurt. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Dtail]

I'm afraid some tough love may be needed.
My oldest son has always been on the lazy side. He holds jobs for a few years, then gets let go. Not sure if he is working now. Came down last summer and stayed with us for 5 weeks, then didn't hear from him for 3 months.
I have made it clear there is no financial support coming from me and hinted perhaps no inheritance if minimal communication. After awhile, no more guilt from me.

So if you can stomach it, I would test the waters with much less financial assistance and see what happens.

 

[donheff]

Yikes. I would try to deal fairly with the older disabled son first. Evaluate what it will take to keep him adequately housed, tuition for community college, etc. As to whether you do it from near or far, go with your own needs. If you move away, the 15 YO may be unhappy for a while but, like you say- boys, moving away for college, whatever. She will soon be leading her own life. If you are worried, stay through HS while you plan your dream location.

As for the young guy, tough love along the lines others suggest. That might counsel moving away where the pain won't be so immediate. I would be cautious to pay the property tax and keep the utilities running if it gets freezing cold where you are. It's your house, after all so, you don't want it to go to the tax man or flood.

I sympathize. Kids (or anyone, for that matter) can go downhill pretty fast and it is hard to stand by. Good luck.

 

[pjigar]

We, humans, are very good at adapting. Or rather, very bad at not changing if we don't have to.

You can structure financial help in a way that every $2 he makes, you will match $1, capping off at $10K (or whatever amount you see fit) a year.

I would still help them if I am able but with an incentive like this. In fact, I have told my teenage DD that I will match her IRA contributions dollar-for-dollar when she starts earning money. Different application but same logic: skin in the game.


I would move far away only if I have dreamed about that life style. If you like the area then you can move "drivable" distance away if you want so the grand kids' meets can happen more frequently.


We learned that living physically close with the people you care is not a good idea. I have "lost" a good friend when we moved next door to him. My relationship with my brother deteriorated when we lived together in the same household for a year. Since then I have made a "2 block separation" rule. YMMV.

 

[MRG]

Your move won't accomplish anything until you stop being involved, get help for you and your wife. Some day you won't be here what will they do with a lot of assets, lacking the understanding of how to live?

I don't say these words easily I've seen his situation first hand in my family. DF couldn't stop parenting my DB and he did the only thing he thought would end the situation. That same show was repeating itself with my DS and her kid. My other sister finally asked if she wanted to repeat our parents mistakes? "No, then get help for yourself and stop parenting your adult son". Today her son, my nephew is out of prison, working full time, clean and sober, has visitation with his kid. Life will work out by staying out of their business. Starting with you getting to therapy and cutting off the financial and emotional support.

 

[Aerides]

Thank you for sharing your difficult situation. This is really tough both sides, but my one takeaway is I wouldn't let the pleas of the 15 yo impact the decision. It's a bit of a manipulation on her part, but one she might not really understand. And you're right, at her age, a year from now her response might be quite different.

Family counseling (for you and your wife) should help, and it's good that you seem to be on the same page mostly. I agree now is the time for distance, to move and live your lives independently.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I can't add anything to what has already been stated above. I have an older brother (59) who has been chemically dependent since age 14. Our parents had enough means to financially enable him til Dad died, then Mom and I pulled in the free money and he hit the skids. In and out of jail, mental hospitals and treatment facilities. Everywhere but work. The last I heard he is in a permanent treatment facility.

Be ready for anything when you stop the financial handouts. Mom and I received threats to our safety to the point of a restraining order. We have no regrets and know we did the right thing for everyone. It wasn't painless, but less painful than continuing the downhill path we were on.

 

[RetiredHappy]

I will share with you a little of my own situation as I have walked down the same road except that the kid is good at core and has a disability. He does not do drugs, smoke, drink nor gamble and has no interesting in dating. He is highly intelligent and has 2 Bachelor degrees, completed at different times when he could not get a job after his first. He worked for us for 5 years and lost his job after we sold the business. He had excellent work ethics. He lived with us until we moved out of state after we sold our business. He bought a home outright with his savings and mine and learned about finances very quickly and the responsibilities that come with home ownership. Anyway, 5 years after we sold our business, he was still unable to get a job in his field(s). I had been gifting him 30K per year to help him pay bills, and prior to that as contributions to his investments while he worked for us. Finally last year, I told him to get a job, any job while I would still help him financially - at 15K (now $16K). I also told him that he would get an inheritance but it would not be sufficient to support him for the rest of his life after I die. 3 months later, he started working in a minimum wage job which has nothing to do with his academic background. The company just does not guarantee full time hours. He is now looking at adding another seasonal job (tax preparation) because he wants to work 40 hours or more.

 

[Markola]

I don’t have much to offer the OP, except compassion for a difficult situation. He might go back and read the chapter in The Millionaire Next Door about how successful people can find themselves giving “Economic Outpatient Care.” The OP is definitely not alone.

His comment about the free houses made me think about our house. Neighbors on 3 sides inherited their houses from the late parents. One is kept tidy but the other 2 are slow-motion disasters. The adult children who inherited just don’t earn enough to maintain the places properly. DW and I worry about our own property value if these places become eyesores. The rest of us neighbors are building tall fences.

 

[ivinsfan]

Oh we know this is our fault. Unfortunately we kept enabling him since he was kicked out of the Air Force during boot camp. His reason for discharge was he had passive aggressive disorder. We felt sorry for him and it started then. It’s only gotten worse, however there have been several times where he actually worked over a year without us having to help very much at all. We have bought him I believe 7 or 8 nice vehicles that he has either wrecked or blown the engines up and made them worthless. We bought him 2 nice mobile homes and told him all he had to do was pay the lot rent, water bill, and the light bills. We always ended up paying something every month until he would move out and we had to sell them both. Did I mention they were almost inhabitable when he moved out. He got married to a girl exactly like him, but worse. She can’t function unless she has joint to smoke, and then she is barely functioning. Her daughter who is 16 from a previous relationship is more mature than she is, but she is “woke” and she thinks of us as evil white folks, even though we have paid for her education since the day they started living together.
When we try to reason with our son his immediate reaction is “I never asked you to do anything!” They we’re both doing coke for several years, and even though I was once a detective in Law Enforcement, I failed to see the signs and had to be told by my brother, which he let slip out during a conversation about what to do with him and her.
They got married 2 years ago. She had our granddaughter 9 years ago. She refuses to try to get a job, she doesn’t keep the clothes cleaned, doesn’t cook meals, except microwave crap. She has made her 16 yo daughter look after her 9 year old since day one. It’s one huge mess. They live in my wife’s ancestral home. When she inherited it the renters had let their dogs and cats basically destroy the floors and cabinets in the home. We had them evicted and we had to redo the original hardwoods and completely demolish the kitchen down to the floor joists due to the urine smell. That cost us quite a bit of money. After it was back to being in good condition again he needed a place again and against my wife’s advice I allowed him to move in, with the stipulation he keep it clean or get evicted himself. Well several years later the house is again a wreck. When we told him he needed to clean it up, get a job he said he couldn’t get a job and he guessed he would get a tent and move down to our farm and live in it. I should have said go then, but I didn’t. He can’t drive, no license for 5 years. She won’t get a license due to laziness. He has ADHD and ADD as does our 9 yo granddaughter. We are in a fine pickle aren’t we.

Giving us a litany of all the misdeeds of your son and DIL doesn't add anything to this discussion.



Shrugging your shoulders and say you know it's your fault and you are in a fine pickle doesn't add anything helpful either.


You say you have given son 7 or 8 nice vehicles and he hasn't driven in 5 years so you gave him these cars before he turned 30?


There isn't one thing that anybody typing here can tell you that would be helpful except, go find some counseling. According to you these problems are now spilling over to a 3rd generation and on it goes.


When you have an ongoing decades old problem like this the best thing you can do for yourself it admit you don't know how to change it without expert help.


I want you to enjoy your old age. Now maybe you can enjoy it with your kids and maybe it will be without your kids but it seems like what you are doing isn't working for anyone..

 

[pacergal]

OP
I empathize with your situation. It is so difficult to watch our kids/grandkids struggle.

Your oldest son sounds like he is doing an excellent job, and it appears you enjoy the overnights with the two grandkids. Keep that relationship going as is, check in with him maybe yearly on the financial aspect of payment for rent o the house you own.

For the youngest, my advice is to stop helping completely, other than the housing, since yo own the house. Advise them that you will no longer help them financially with utilities, cars, etc. They need to go get jobs and use public transportation if needed. And set an expectation that they will need to pay a nominal rent to you.
It doesn't sound like their 9 year old visits, but if she does after you cut off the $ from her parents, you can always share a meal with her so you know she is not hungry.

Be Firm/Stand Tall and follow through. Get counseling for yourself and DW to stop being co-dependent.
If youngest son and his wife truly believe you will not break down and give in, I don't think they will go with out food, lights, heat, etc for too long and go get jobs to support themselves. If they do not, you may need to be strong enough to evict them. Tough love for sure.

I would wait to move in a few years, if you enjoy your 11 and 15 year old GK visiting and enjoy being with your oldest son, unless moving is the only way you can cope with this. But that may only be running away from the problem, it will remain, until you do something.

 

[pacergal]

I would also add:
If you do not have a will, I would do one soon.
I would personally give a much larger portion to oldest disabled son, and, if anything to youngest, would go in a trust for the grandchild. Your youngest has has enough financial help to last your lifetime and beyond.
My two cents worth