When Adult Kids Have To Deal With Parents Bad Choices

I am one of 6 kids and mom is financially sound at a CCRC. (dad died)

Still she gives away her newish car to the sib who helps the least and acts like those of us who are financially ok, can afford to help her with expenses.

I ve been helping until this year and will be saying no in 2019. SWHTF
 
Not a critique, but I've always found it interesting of families who have no clue as to their elderly parents' finances until things get dire.

Maybe it's just us but we've always been able to talk about money within the family, although our financial situation is a bit different from most; it's quite intertwined.

Ever since mom turned about 70 or 75, I've had full visibility of her income and spending. Never had to step in but she does have her odd little expenses/charities that I don't agree with. Nothing big and she's happy; I don't track every dollar but just keep tabs on trends.

On the plus side, she likes the idea of feeling 'safe' when someone questionable might surface, her standard reply is "I don't handle any money, you'll have to talk to my son", so I get to play the bad guy.
 
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My mom handled her finances but had us on her account so we could pay bills, etc. Then she spent 13 weeks in the hospital and didn’t want to take her finances back for about 6 months while she recovered. Then she handled them until she died at 89. We have a will etc but our kids don’t have complete knowledge of our finances. It’s all in writing for when the executor needs it.
 
Not a critique, but I've always found it interesting of families who have no clue as to their elderly parents' finances until things get dire.

Sometimes it's the secretiveness of the elderly parents regarding their finances and not that the kids don't care to become informed.
 
Sometimes it's the secretiveness of the elderly parents regarding their finances and not that the kids don't care to become informed.

^This^
My in law's are in their mid 80's MIL has the pension and SS FIL only has SS, FIL runs their finances without explaining anything to MIL and won't discuss with my wife. If MIL goes before FIL her pension goes with her. I sure hope FIL is saving for a rainy day because it's coming and there will be no help from my household budget, if DW wants to help FIL I guess she will have to keep working. FIL has been an ass from the day I met him.
 
Not sure why people think they have a right to know their parents finances. I find this all very weird unless someone is asking for money. My experience has been that people adjust their spending to their income.
 
^ I have seen parents adjust their spending, not to their incomes, but rather to their credit lines available.

These folks, typically, don't know a things about SWR etc. They know money is for spending.

I breath a sign of relief when folks like this decline to trade in their corporate pensions for a lump sum. At least in the case with pensions, the permanent damage inflicted can be limited.
 
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Not sure why people think they have a right to know their parents finances. I find this all very weird unless someone is asking for money. My experience has been that people adjust their spending to their income.


It's not about having a "right" to know, as much as a feeling of "responsibility" for outcomes.

Very much like raising children, as they move from teenagers, to young adults. You can see the bad outcomes on the near horizon but feel powerless to avoid them, yet responsible for the clean up.
 
Not sure why people think they have a right to know their parents finances. I find this all very weird unless someone is asking for money. My experience has been that people adjust their spending to their income.
I think we're talking about very elderly who may become forgetful, naive, unfocused or subject to scammers. It's not about a 'right', but a matter of protecting a loved one from harm.
My mom gets one or two 'urgent' letters a week from people threatening to cut off her phone, void her car warranty or cancel a service unless she sends money. Investment scams too. These things are aimed at the aged. Thankfully mom knows better but I can see how many would get sucked in easily; they're very convincing
A guy came to her house the other offering to repave the driveway....doesn't need it.
Watch a few episodes of "American Greed"
 
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I guess that jeanie and I fit into the "elderly" category, and with me in a slow decline in mental prowess, with a steady onset of Alzheimer's/Dementia, also qualify as being in danger of financial"looseness".

Some years ago, we had a family confab... four sons and their wives to broadly go over our finances, and plans for our death or disability. We did an online "free" will, and together with the whole family, came to a mutual agreement for Power of Attorney, and all of the details of inheritance.

At age 82, this was probably the most satisfying experiences of our old age. It wasn't hard, a has left us with a peace of mind that is incalculable.

I try not to recommend on these matters, but if the extended family is friendly and respectful, this would be my first suggestion re long term money matters.
 
I guess that jeanie and I fit into the "elderly" category, and with me in a slow decline in mental prowess, with a steady onset of Alzheimer's/Dementia, also qualify as being in danger of financial"looseness".

Some years ago, we had a family confab... four sons and their wives to broadly go over our finances, and plans for our death or disability. We did an online "free" will, and together with the whole family, came to a mutual agreement for Power of Attorney, and all of the details of inheritance.

At age 82, this was probably the most satisfying experiences of our old age. It wasn't hard, a has left us with a peace of mind that is incalculable.

I try not to recommend on these matters, but if the extended family is friendly and respectful, this would be my first suggestion re long term money matters.

Well done and well put!
 
.... She accused me specifically of stealing. ...

I've seen this with my grandmother and my great-aunt.

We get a call at home and DW answers... after a short conversation she hnads the phone to me and says "You handle this"... its my grandmother... convinced that my wife is stealing her bras... I had all I could do not to laugh... this was not the first time so I said "Well Gram, there is something that you need to do when someone steals something from you."... she goes "What's that?"... I respond "Call the police." and hung up. Also, my uncles were stealing liquor from her liquor cabinet... she didn't drink so I don't know why she would care.

My aunt was accused by my great-aunt of stealing her money... nevermind that my aunt was in Florida and my great-aunt was in Massachusetts.

Fun days.
 
On the plus side, she likes the idea of feeling 'safe' when someone questionable might surface, her standard reply is "I don't handle any money, you'll have to talk to my son", so I get to play the bad guy.

My mom did similar behavior. When scammers called on the phone her reply was "You'll have to talk to my police detective son". They always hung up pretty quick. She didn't get scammers at the door, she lived in an apartment in a CCRC and they had fairly good security.

When the time came that she needed help with the finances she was well aware that she needed help and welcomed it. I took home the bulk of the financial paperwork and paid her normal bills (I was joint on the checking account) and then opened a new checking account for her use. I kept $500 in it so she could do her normal shopping, birthday gifts for grandkids, etc. and I had online access so I could virtually "watch over her shoulder". If someone stole the $500 that would not seriously impact her finances.
 
I will change the names to protect the innocent...


We were over at my Grandmother's house. My Dad started putzing with the shrubs by the front door. My Grandmother asked "What are you doing?" My Dad said "Just cleaning out the leaves from around the bushes." Grandmother said "Don't mess with that. Come sit and talk. Harvey is going to clean those out when he ever gets around to it." My Dad looks at me sorta sideways.


My Dad's name was Harvey...
 
As part of my work life, I meet daily with older adults and their families. Cognitive decline is often subtle and some cognitive functions (planning, judgement) are lost before family realize. More families need to check in on spending by older family members. It can be done respectfully. There are alot of scams
 
I've seen this with my grandmother and my great-aunt.



We get a call at home and DW answers... after a short conversation she hnads the phone to me and says "You handle this"... its my grandmother... convinced that my wife is stealing her bras... I had all I could do not to laugh... this was not the first time so I said "Well Gram, there is something that you need to do when someone steals something from you."... she goes "What's that?"... I respond "Call the police." and hung up. Also, my uncles were stealing liquor from her liquor cabinet... she didn't drink so I don't know why she would care.



My aunt was accused by my great-aunt of stealing her money... nevermind that my aunt was in Florida and my great-aunt was in Massachusetts.



Fun days.



I would be careful with this. A dear cousin has these issues with her mom. She’s called 911 a few times and there is real concern the county could intervene. It’s a public safety issue as well as an elder welfare issue. They can’t ignore the 911 call and those resources should be reserved for folks that really need help.
 
I would be careful with this. A dear cousin has these issues with her mom. She’s called 911 a few times and there is real concern the county could intervene. It’s a public safety issue as well as an elder welfare issue. They can’t ignore the 911 call and those resources should be reserved for folks that really need help.
Yes, though I know of a reverse situation as well. A friend's 88 year old mother, living alone but with a daily aide, has some dementia, and was found wandering her condo complex ranting about paranoid stuff. The police were called, she was hospitalized, and she was moved to assisted living, much to my friend's relief. Then one day her mother took a bus from the facility to the bank, closed her checking account that my friend was joint owner of, with the mother saying my friend was stealing from her, and opened a new account on her own. The bank didn't contact my friend, and auto payments started bouncing. My friend was furious with the AL facility and called in adult protective services. Adult services interviewed the mother, decided she was competent, and said she could return to living at home. Where she is now calling neighbors over and over every day, terrorizing new aides (her old one quit), and more. There is no money--just her SS check, and the friend lives on a shoestring and would have to go about $1k in debt every month to get her mother into a non-Medicaid memory care unit.

So for now, when neighbors complain, she has them call the Adult Services rep who made the decision to return Mom home.
 
My mother died in January. It was very unexpected. She was 57 years old. My father found her on the back porch when he came home that night. He's retired from the state but also works part time for a local law enforcement agency. His LEO status gave him 3 free counseling sessions as part of his benefits package for being around tough situations. He used 2 of his sessions to talk about Mom, but did not feel the need for the 3rd and refused to explore the options his insurance offered because "they cost money"- just a copay.


He has since started frequenting casinos. He would take my 95 year old grandmother on occasion when Mom was alive, but mostly he was there to make sure she didn't fall (she's blind) and to ensure she had a good time. He now spends a LOT of time at them. He gives himself a few hours both before and after visiting me (I live 3 hours away from him) to stop at the casino near my house. He goes to various casinos and travels the circuit so often that he is now being comped hotel nights and two weeks ago they "gave" him a cruise. He was always the saver, Mom was the spender. He got some life insurance money when she passed and as my grandmother's power of attorney he's seen first hand what it's like to live a long life without money. It's concerning, confusing, depressing, and at times infuriating to see him like this. But I'm not at the point of intervention yet. Why? Because he has his pension, his part time job, and is not pulling SSI yet (even though he is eligible). I am keeping an eye on things but ultimately this is how he's choosing to deal with being alone for the first time ever in his life. I don't have to agree with it, it's not up to me.
 
This is not a parent issue but what obligation does one have to a friend of several decades who has gotten himself into a terrible money issue, mainly due to what I consider a long time shopping addictions to high clothes, furniture, and the like. He doesn't share with many people, but confided to us he only 1000 a month in SS coming in, spent his entire 401 in the last 2 and a half years and hasn't filed a tax return since 2015 because he didn't do withholding and doesn't have the money to pay his taxes. He's living off a couple credit cards that are almost maxed out and has an expensive paid off house where the taxes alone are 16K..he doesn't have money for that either.

He has long term diabetes issues, sleep issues and yes depression issues, so I don't even know where to begin. He hasn't asked for money and we wouldn't give him money but what practical things would you say or try to get him to the other side. He'll need to sell his house and get a small apartment, but he's basically a hoarder with really expensive taste. He doesn't have family to talk to so I don't know if we should use tough love or just say to him. "That's too bad, hope it works out", I know it won't work out for him without some intervention from someone.

I heard a very good version of "hope it works out" for situations like this. Listen to the person describe their situation and respond with "Oh no! What are you going to do?" It's similar to your phrase in that expresses that you care and also points the person to the fact that they are responsible for the circumstances and they can change things by taking action.

You can't take this approach with a person who lacks mental capacity, but it seems entirely appropriate when an able-bodied (minded) person is looking for someone else to cure their self-created situation. I have to do this with my adult children and have reasoned that to rescue them would be to dishonor the choice that they made in the first place. It has worked out well even though both of them have gone through some pretty tough circumstances because of their choices. Much like their parents, they used the pain of those times to figure how to avoid repeating the mistake.
 
We are blessed

After reading sad stories, we feel blessed that we did a few things right and in a timely fashion.

I am 73 and my wife is 72. Both are of the very sound mind and highly educated - no signs of dementia at all. But she has several metastatic colon cancer surgeries since 2014 and has been beating the odds and we keep traveling - one of the few things she likes to do - she does not care for jewelry etc. I have BP, Sleep Apnea, and early stage of Diabetes - all under control with sound health.

1) Though we had high professional income, we always were frugal. We sent kids to Brown, Harvard, MIT, and UCLA to get their education and they are well settled with far more savings than we had at their age! They have frugality in the blood too. We were the role model. And both read financial literature and do their max Roth IRA, 403(b) and invest mainly in Index funds (they are 36 & 37)

2) We consolidated all accounts under just one - Fidelity and gave them to manage the investment so we have time to learn new things and travel.

We converted one IRA to Roth and intend to leave Roth to kids. Second IRA we use for retirement income. We converted Pension to IRA (good timing since the market has been good for the last 5 years)! Roth is Aggressive (for the legacy to kids) 85% stocks, 10% bonds, and rest is cash. And IRA is 70% stock.

3) Every year we did Monte Carlo simulations on our assets to assess how much we can afford to spend on travel, charity and to give to kids without running out of money. We give $20K to kids for their IRA, 403 etc, so they can use their money for their nice living. They chose not to go to high paying wall street job and enjoy positively contributing to society by being high school teachers.

4) We sat down with kids and shared our Will, Financial POA, Living Will, and Advanced Health proxy. As well as an excel of all the info about bills, CC,
where the water and gas valves are in the home, had them as beneficiaries on all financial accounts and banks including access to the safe deposit vault, etc.

We shared our Last wishes info - what to do on the 1st day of death, in a week, in a month, in six months and a year after our death, major contacts like Dr., Accountant, Lawyer, Plumber, Handyman, relatives, friends (to notify of our death) including our own obit and so on.

5) we showed all finances and shared what we may give to charity and what we may give to them. They said that they do not want anything, and we should use it ourselves (insisted that we fly business class, at least, if not the first class in all our travel, and do charity.).

Of course, we will leave some to them! But will leave it as tax-free Roth and stretch IRA. We are NOT doing trust - they are good kids with heads screwed on right and do not fear them to be spendthrift and do not worry about them under a creditor situation where the inherited IRA can be pried open. For others, that may not be a good option and they should do a trust to protect from a creditor (or divorce) and control the use of the funds.

6) We knew that 70% will need some kind of Long Term Care - be it home aid, Assisted Living, Nursing home, (God have mercy on us) Dementia/Parkinson - any neurological chronic disease - that can keep us for far longer than 3 years in a nursing home.

Most importantly we knew that LTC insurance was not possible for us and even if we can get it it would be limited to $5K month which is hardly 50% of the today's cost and will run out in 3 years anyway. If we wanted $5K for a month for the lifetime then it would cost us close to $30K/year and will be a hassle to choose at the last minute and could be a burden on the caretaker Spouse. My MIL was in a nursing home for ~3 years and it took a real toll on us since she had language and food barrier so my wife would be at the nursing home EVERY day from 9-10 AM to 7-8 PM.

7) So we talked to the kids about us going to a LifeCare (CCRC) facility and they loved the idea provided that they will share their thoughts on the facilities. We read five books on CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community), searched the net, and visited several in few states including in good weather and near my daughter also.

8) We finally settled for a Non-Profit - Willow Valley Communities [mod edit] in Lancaster, PA. It has been around 30+ years with 2,500 residents with hundreds of activities right on the 210-acre campus including two big clubs with modern 500 seat auditorium where they bring shows at a nominal price, Swimming, Bowling alley, Gym, Golf, Wood Club, Tennis, Pickleball, model railroad club - two of them etc.

Our building, with 400 residents, has 500 seats auditorium, an Art studio, two dining halls (one requires a reservation!), a bank with safe deposit vault, pharmacy, ~3,000 Sq ft. Library, Hair Saloon, Swimming pool, Gym, Wood club, Cafe, 24 hr. resident registered nurse etc.! I don't have to go out of the building if I don't want to! If I get sick, then the food is delivered to my apartment.

The larger unit will have a larger cost. We downsized 11 years ago from 4,000 to 1,800 sq ft so further downsizing is not an issue with so many activities going on, we will be coming home basically to sleep - like an inside cabin on a cruise ship. This is a land cruise ship in the cornfield or as one resident put it - it is God's waiting room with luxury!

Our Monthly cost is $4,000 but we will cook our own and so our monthly cost will be $3,500. (We would have paid ~$2,500 for LTC anyway!). We will get ~1,200 Sq ft condo as independent living with 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, large balcony overlooking a large courtyard with Koi Pond, shuffleboard, BBQ etc.!

We will not have any mortgage, property tax, or HOA fees! Our condo is updated with new carpet, wood floor, new appliance, new bathroom etc now and will be redone every 10 years along with the renovation of the building also every 10 years at no or nominal cost for the upgrade.

For normal maintenance, we call the staff for free. Maid cost is $25/hour, Internet $25 and 200 Channel TV is $35/month. Free shuttle to take us around the campus as well as nearby shopping, hospital and doctor's office! On the campus, there is U Penn's Medical Arts building with doctors of various discipline and modern lab, so we can be taken care of on the campus, and the lab comes to the home to take a blood sample if need be!

Most IMPORTANT, if one us need Assisted Living/Nursing Home/ Memory ward/Hospice etc. then there four major facilities (one connected to our building - just walk over and no driving for the other spouse). Two new are being built. All of these is included in the monthly fees.

And when one of us passes away the other will be remaining active mentally and physically with so many activities and so many folks to interact with. People gain years by avoiding the deadly disease of loneliness (the equivalent of 8 years of life - about 15 cigarettes per day according to the surgeon general).

They have CMS 5-star medical facilities. Yes, monthly fees do increase 3-3.5% /year to keep up with inflation and with increases in the medical cost.

You also pay a one-time entrance fee. It can be partially refundable for 4 years (none after), or 33% refundable or 90% refundable but the cost goes up for the refundable option. We took a nonrefundable option. We will manage our own - either spend on travel, give to charity, invest etc. vs. give to Willow Valley - kids have their own and will leave them some anyway. No need to tie up 80% more for a 90% refund!

Our kids THANKED us profusely for this decision and said that this is the BEST GIFT (second to the education) that we are giving them!

We move in January 2019!

Morale: Plan ahead, get rid of junk, don't be a burden on kids. They have their own life to live!

If your parents need such help, then get them in good CCRC to protect and take care of them - mentally and physically.

If you need more info, you can PM me. [mod edit]

Best of luck for your own journey and help with your parents and the loved ones. May God bless all of us.

BTW: Most CCRC require that medical exam and will NOT take you if you have any neurological disease - so you must plan ahead!

Typically, they look for your net assets as double your entrance fee and your income as double your monthly fees - they want you to have a life outside of the CCRC!
 
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Social safety nets (SSI / SNAP / Sec 8. housing / Medicaid Nursing LTC) exist for these situations when seniors exhaust their resources. We don't typically turn them into beggars on the street in this country.-gauss

Methinks you have not really looked at the homeless situation in almost all major cities. The federal social safety net is being systematically shredded; I wouldn't suggest assuming it's going to save anyone you know.
 
Our kids THANKED us profusely for this decision and said that this is the BEST GIFT (second to the education) that we are giving them!

We move in January 2019!

Morale: Plan ahead, get rid of junk, don't be a burden on kids. They have their own life to live!

If your parents need such help, then get them in good CCRC to protect and take care of them - mentally and physically.

Most of the mini-novel deleted. :cool:

I think the bulk of the responses to this topic involve parents who - due to their own bad choices or deteriorating mental capacity - become a financial burden on their kids. I don't know anything about CCRC's, other than what I read on this forum. But it sounds to me like they're not free. If someone's parents are broke, that isn't a solution to the problem.
 
>> Quote:
Originally Posted by jayanu View Post

Our kids THANKED us profusely for this decision and said that this is the BEST GIFT (second to the education) that we are giving them!

We move in January 2019!

Morale: Plan ahead, get rid of junk, don't be a burden on kids. They have their own life to live!

If your parents need such help, then get them in good CCRC to protect and take care of them - mentally and physically.

=============================
>> Most of the mini-novel deleted.
Good, that was just showing what level of planning throughout life is needed - it was for us for sure!

>> I don't know anything about CCRC's, other than what I read on this forum. But it sounds to me like they're not free. If someone's parents are broke, that isn't a solution to the problem.

Yes, None of them are free! This is a capitalistic and not socialist country!

The only choice is the Medicaid supported Nursing home but for that one can not have more than $2,000 total with a look back period of five years. So one can not give away money to the kids and then go for Medicaid. Nursing homes take your SSI also.
In some situation, the state can come after the kids for the cost under the Filial responsibility law so one can not be assured that Medicaid will solve the problem.

It is a desperate situation for those who have not planned well - important for all the readers to wake up and plan for their retirement! Medical expenses in the retirement are huge! Golden years of Retirement area myth!
 
...I think the bulk of the responses to this topic involve parents who - due to their own bad choices or deteriorating mental capacity - become a financial burden on their kids. I don't know anything about CCRC's, other than what I read on this forum. But it sounds to me like they're not free. If someone's parents are broke, that isn't a solution to the problem.

I think that part of the emotional burden of caring for an elderly relative is that it makes you think about what might happen in your old age. That's certainly how it felt for DH and I, when we realized his mom's dementia wasn't just "a little bit forgetful". We dealt with it for a while but in the end she was much better off at a very fine CCRC, which she fortunately had the $$$$ for, having sold her home for a big gain.

We had already done our financial/legal docs. But investigating facilities for MIL made us realize it is better to move sooner rather than later. As Boomers in our mid-60's, we have already had 10 great yrs in retirement.

Now we want to go the same CCRC route as Jayanu. Isn't that the whole idea of FIRE? It gives us, the next generation, options that many of our parents didn't/don't have.

We want to learn from their situation, even if we as their children/relatives can only do so much to help right now.
 
We have just gone through this with our elderly parents. They are 88 and 94yo respectively and we just got them into a CCRC this year after a long battle. Unfortunately, they had made no long term care plans.

They insisted on staying in their 4 bedroom home, in another state by themselves, in order to not be a burden to us. In fact, it guaranteed to be a burden. We were on the phone daily over medical complaints and were driving out every other weekend to help them out. 4 hr drive each way.


I was burned out and they finally agreed to enter a nearby CCRC this past January.
I think I still have PTSD a little over the past year's emotional toll.


I still get daily panic calls from my Mom over health complaints. Family is still the first contact over every issue. This is very stressful emotionally since it takes time away from my family plus the constant interruptions at work are affecting my performance.
For awhile she was often calling, accusing my wife of stealing her shirts and her coat. That has dyed down for now.
Sigh ....


My wife and I are making our own plans so as not to burden our kids.
 
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