When Adult Kids Have To Deal With Parents Bad Choices

[Teacher Terry]

I don’t know one person who has went to a CCRC. My aunt still lives alone at 93 and my friends mom lives in a well kept house at 85. She still drives, entertains and has friends.

 

[jayanu]

There are only 600K people in ~1954 CCRCs in the USA so not surprising that you have not met one! Question is how many can live like your aunt alone and not be a burden on the family.

 

[aja8888]

There are only 600K people in ~1954 CCRCs in the USA so not surprising that you have not met one! Question is how many can live like your aunt alone and not be a burden on the family.

It may be more common than we think. We live in an older (20 years old) 55+ community and I can think of several people in my local neighborhood that are over 80 and still living independently without much help (or visitation) from their children. Two neighbors have died in-place, both over 90, during the last three years with some home health care near the end of their life.

One of my dog walking "partners" here is an 86 year old lady that is very active and volunteers three times per week. Her kids live in Ca and visit maybe once per year.

 

[HI Bill]

My friend lives in IL, his[parents moved to Fl. Father passed away. monther stayed for a while. They were "collectors." My friend had to go every fortnight for a weekend (for 6 months) to clean up the "collection." Please don't do this to your kids. Though this thread is for parents situations we should remember that we are (most of us) are parents and learn from these to make it easy for our kids!

My mom was an obsessive-compulsive hoarder. Everything had value. She recognized she should clean our her house so I would not have to do it, and for 15 years, said she was going to. The only time the house was cleaned up was when I rented 2 dumpsters and did it myself (with help from friends). She could simply not make the decision to throw anything away. She kept all the envelopes the mail (including junk mail) came in! She did not know what financial paperwork she should keep for taxes, so she kept everything. Unread magazines.

Actually, make that 3 dumpsters. One when she was divorced, and I threw away 200 bankers boxes of books and papers. The second after she moved into a new house. More than 30 additional boxes to the dumpster, and 20 to the library. Then, after she passed, I got the largest dumpster...18 cubic yards. We filled it to the top!

 

[Teacher Terry]

Most people I know mostly took care of themselves or a spouse. Some ended up in nursing homes but not many. I have neighbors that the man is 98 and wife is 88. She still driving, they take a walk everyday and sit outside. Today they were raking their leafs.

 

[bmcgonig]

After reading sad stories, we feel blessed that we did a few things right and in a timely fashion.

I am 73 and my wife is 72. Both are of the very sound mind and highly educated - no signs of dementia at all. But she has several metastatic colon cancer surgeries since 2014 and has been beating the odds and we keep traveling - one of the few things she likes to do - she does not care for jewelry etc. I have BP, Sleep Apnea, and early stage of Diabetes - all under control with sound health.

1) Though we had high professional income, we always were frugal. We sent kids to Brown, Harvard, MIT, and UCLA to get their education and they are well settled with far more savings than we had at their age! They have frugality in the blood too. We were the role model. And both read financial literature and do their max Roth IRA, 403(b) and invest mainly in Index funds (they are 36 & 37)

2) We consolidated all accounts under just one - Fidelity and gave them to manage the investment so we have time to learn new things and travel.

We converted one IRA to Roth and intend to leave Roth to kids. Second IRA we use for retirement income. We converted Pension to IRA (good timing since the market has been good for the last 5 years)! Roth is Aggressive (for the legacy to kids) 85% stocks, 10% bonds, and rest is cash. And IRA is 70% stock.

3) Every year we did Monte Carlo simulations on our assets to assess how much we can afford to spend on travel, charity and to give to kids without running out of money. We give $20K to kids for their IRA, 403 etc, so they can use their money for their nice living. They chose not to go to high paying wall street job and enjoy positively contributing to society by being high school teachers.

4) We sat down with kids and shared our Will, Financial POA, Living Will, and Advanced Health proxy. As well as an excel of all the info about bills, CC,
where the water and gas valves are in the home, had them as beneficiaries on all financial accounts and banks including access to the safe deposit vault, etc.

We shared our Last wishes info - what to do on the 1st day of death, in a week, in a month, in six months and a year after our death, major contacts like Dr., Accountant, Lawyer, Plumber, Handyman, relatives, friends (to notify of our death) including our own obit and so on.

5) we showed all finances and shared what we may give to charity and what we may give to them. They said that they do not want anything, and we should use it ourselves (insisted that we fly business class, at least, if not the first class in all our travel, and do charity.).

Of course, we will leave some to them! But will leave it as tax-free Roth and stretch IRA. We are NOT doing trust - they are good kids with heads screwed on right and do not fear them to be spendthrift and do not worry about them under a creditor situation where the inherited IRA can be pried open. For others, that may not be a good option and they should do a trust to protect from a creditor (or divorce) and control the use of the funds.

6) We knew that 70% will need some kind of Long Term Care - be it home aid, Assisted Living, Nursing home, (God have mercy on us) Dementia/Parkinson - any neurological chronic disease - that can keep us for far longer than 3 years in a nursing home.

Most importantly we knew that LTC insurance was not possible for us and even if we can get it it would be limited to $5K month which is hardly 50% of the today's cost and will run out in 3 years anyway. If we wanted $5K for a month for the lifetime then it would cost us close to $30K/year and will be a hassle to choose at the last minute and could be a burden on the caretaker Spouse. My MIL was in a nursing home for ~3 years and it took a real toll on us since she had language and food barrier so my wife would be at the nursing home EVERY day from 9-10 AM to 7-8 PM.

7) So we talked to the kids about us going to a LifeCare (CCRC) facility and they loved the idea provided that they will share their thoughts on the facilities. We read five books on CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community), searched the net, and visited several in few states including in good weather and near my daughter also.

8) We finally settled for a Non-Profit - Willow Valley Communities [mod edit] in Lancaster, PA. It has been around 30+ years with 2,500 residents with hundreds of activities right on the 210-acre campus including two big clubs with modern 500 seat auditorium where they bring shows at a nominal price, Swimming, Bowling alley, Gym, Golf, Wood Club, Tennis, Pickleball, model railroad club - two of them etc.

Our building, with 400 residents, has 500 seats auditorium, an Art studio, two dining halls (one requires a reservation!), a bank with safe deposit vault, pharmacy, ~3,000 Sq ft. Library, Hair Saloon, Swimming pool, Gym, Wood club, Cafe, 24 hr. resident registered nurse etc.! I don't have to go out of the building if I don't want to! If I get sick, then the food is delivered to my apartment.

The larger unit will have a larger cost. We downsized 11 years ago from 4,000 to 1,800 sq ft so further downsizing is not an issue with so many activities going on, we will be coming home basically to sleep - like an inside cabin on a cruise ship. This is a land cruise ship in the cornfield or as one resident put it - it is God's waiting room with luxury!

Our Monthly cost is $4,000 but we will cook our own and so our monthly cost will be $3,500. (We would have paid ~$2,500 for LTC anyway!). We will get ~1,200 Sq ft condo as independent living with 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, large balcony overlooking a large courtyard with Koi Pond, shuffleboard, BBQ etc.!

We will not have any mortgage, property tax, or HOA fees! Our condo is updated with new carpet, wood floor, new appliance, new bathroom etc now and will be redone every 10 years along with the renovation of the building also every 10 years at no or nominal cost for the upgrade.

For normal maintenance, we call the staff for free. Maid cost is $25/hour, Internet $25 and 200 Channel TV is $35/month. Free shuttle to take us around the campus as well as nearby shopping, hospital and doctor's office! On the campus, there is U Penn's Medical Arts building with doctors of various discipline and modern lab, so we can be taken care of on the campus, and the lab comes to the home to take a blood sample if need be!

Most IMPORTANT, if one us need Assisted Living/Nursing Home/ Memory ward/Hospice etc. then there four major facilities (one connected to our building - just walk over and no driving for the other spouse). Two new are being built. All of these is included in the monthly fees.

And when one of us passes away the other will be remaining active mentally and physically with so many activities and so many folks to interact with. People gain years by avoiding the deadly disease of loneliness (the equivalent of 8 years of life - about 15 cigarettes per day according to the surgeon general).

They have CMS 5-star medical facilities. Yes, monthly fees do increase 3-3.5% /year to keep up with inflation and with increases in the medical cost.

You also pay a one-time entrance fee. It can be partially refundable for 4 years (none after), or 33% refundable or 90% refundable but the cost goes up for the refundable option. We took a nonrefundable option. We will manage our own - either spend on travel, give to charity, invest etc. vs. give to Willow Valley - kids have their own and will leave them some anyway. No need to tie up 80% more for a 90% refund!

Our kids THANKED us profusely for this decision and said that this is the BEST GIFT (second to the education) that we are giving them!

We move in January 2019!

Morale: Plan ahead, get rid of junk, don't be a burden on kids. They have their own life to live!

If your parents need such help, then get them in good CCRC to protect and take care of them - mentally and physically.

If you need more info, you can PM me. [mod edit]

Best of luck for your own journey and help with your parents and the loved ones. May God bless all of us.

BTW: Most CCRC require that medical exam and will NOT take you if you have any neurological disease - so you must plan ahead!

Typically, they look for your net assets as double your entrance fee and your income as double your monthly fees - they want you to have a life outside of the CCRC!

Nice write up. Thanks for all that. I looked up Willow Valley and I must say I was stunned that they have the fee schedule almost on the front page. Most of them would never do that... Like pulling teeth to get a list of fees. And 4k a month for a couple for Life Care seems like a nice deal.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[Walt34]

I don’t know one person who has went to a CCRC. My aunt still lives alone at 93 and my friends mom lives in a well kept house at 85. She still drives, entertains and has friends.

My mother moved to a CCRC apartment when she was 75 and loved it. She enjoyed the activities and classes, the exercises, the trips, and most of all not having to deal with house maintenance issues. She cried the day the house sold (she'd been there ~40 years) and six months later said "I wish I'd done this ten years ago". She was in an independent living unit for 11 years.

She did go into an assisted living unit about six months before she passed away.

Her experience and what we saw with FIL (not moving until he had to and paying a heavy price for that) are the reason we are on a waiting list for a CCRC. I'm not really looking forward to it but I realize that the day will inevitably come when at least one of us can't drive and will need help with daily tasks. Where we're planning on going they have SFH with garages, duplexes with garages, and apartments. I am looking forward to not having to think about house maintenance.

 

[albireo13]

my Dad is 94yo and still drives.

 

[HI Bill]

my Dad is 94yo and still drives.

It may be possible to anonamously petition your DMV for driver re-examination, if there is a justified reason to think his driving is impaired; this is available in CA, and I'm guessing other states as well.

 

[audreyh1]

Dad gave up driving at 86 which pretty much meant moving to a communal senior living situation. He’s much happier not having to deal with grocery shopping, meals, housekeeping, laundry, yard work. He lived 5 miles out in the country from a small town. It was not a practical situation for him once he could no longer drive, and he was pretty much eating out most meals requiring frequent trips to town and struggling to deal with large acreage mowing, etc.

 

[Teacher Terry]

The average person in a CCRC is 80. Our neighborhood is a combination of seniors and young families. Really enjoying our situation. A very small percentage of seniors choose that option but great if that’s what you want to do. However, some people way overestimating their need for this level of care.

 

[jayanu]

Nice write up. Thanks for all that. I looked up Willow Valley and I must say I was stunned that they have the fee schedule almost on the front page. Most of them would never do that... Like pulling teeth to get a list of fees. And 4k a month for a couple for Life Care seems like a nice deal.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

Yes, that level of transparency was important to us. It has the highest A rating from Fitch (only five such in the country).

I did do a lot of research and Willow Valley communities was the most transparent and absolutely no pushy sales approach. The deposit is fully refunded which was not the case in the most facility. Several did not have an option to opt out of the food plan - since we are vegetarian (Indian food) that was important to us. Chefs did say that they will accommodate our need if we did choose the meal plan!

CMS rating of 5 stars was important to us. We were able to meet directly with the VP of the medical facility on the first overnight stay and tour the facility and she was able to spend 2 hrs answering all our questions in person and by mail including patient satisfaction survey and CMS report.

We went to one CCRC in NJ which was a for-profit (it has gone in bankruptcy in 2008) and the Nursing Director took is on the round of the facility (it is a pay as you go facility) and we were appalled that there was a patient in a wheelchair in her room and she was crying help and no one responded and the Director did not even stop to see what did the patient need. When questioned about she said that in 5 minutes if no one shows up then it goes to the nursing station, after another 5 minutes it goes to the Supervisor. I was appalled! My wife had been out of 8 weeks in a hospital for her treatment and she had suffered 20 bowel movement per day and she cried to see such response and we walked out immediately and told them not be on their mailing list.

We checked with teh residents at WV and found out that once the cord in the bathroom of any of the rooms of the independent living is pulled in less than 2 minutes help arrived.

At Willow Valley Communities, we stayed overnight about five times and met each time with residents for dinner and breakfast and used the facilities so we can see what it would be like. Of course, these stays were complimentary.

We visited each of their four medical facilities building and talked to nurses and patient. Very open. We met father (93) of a friend (63) who is in Dementia ward for 8 years and my son was impressed by the care and compassion that the nurses showed to him that he wanted us to sign the papers the same day! This friend's mother is 92 and lives in independent living and visits him on Sunday for the church service otherwise enjoys her own life as a healthy person would! They moved at WV 30 years ago. The friend's husband has cancer and may not live past two years, she already has booked a studio for her to move in. We met several parents who have their kids also living there.

We saw one in NC near my daughter. Was nice but all residents (~500) had to go to an only one central dining room (with old decor and not so great food) even if they were in a townhome or villa. Their one-bedroom entrance fee was more than our 2 bedroom cost at WV and monthly fees were 30% higher. They did have very nice medical facilities.

WV has 11 dining rooms spread out in the 210 acres of campus, including two four-star Executive Chef (reservation required) restaurants.

The WV is nicknamed by the residents as 1) Ritz Carlton 2) Luxury liner in the cornfield and 3) God's luxury waiting room!

Clearly, CCRC is NOT one size fits all but it is an option that many do not know. One MUST research well before choosing one!

Again, though the thread is for the Children dealing with parents bad choice, I feel that we are parents too and we should plan well for ourselves and to avoid our kids complaining in such chatroom!!

Thanks.
Love
Jay Shah

 

[jayanu]

My mother moved to a CCRC apartment when she was 75 and loved it. She enjoyed the activities and classes, the exercises, the trips, and most of all not having to deal with house maintenance issues. She cried the day the house sold (she'd been there ~40 years) and six months later said "I wish I'd done this ten years ago". She was in an independent living unit for 11 years.

She did go into an assisted living unit about six months before she passed away.

Her experience and what we saw with FIL (not moving until he had to and paying a heavy price for that) are the reason we are on a waiting list for a CCRC. I'm not really looking forward to it but I realize that the day will inevitably come when at least one of us can't drive and will need help with daily tasks. Where we're planning on going they have SFH with garages, duplexes with garages, and apartments. I am looking forward to not having to think about house maintenance.

I am glad to hear that you are on a waiting list.
One does not get when one wants. It can take several months to several years and hence important to do research and plan well in advance.