Whole house generator and propane supply

[NW-Bound]

The leakage comes from the pressure relief valve on the disposables when refilled.
The stem is pulled out to fill and does not seat properly afterwards, that is why they can not be transported legally after refilling.

Ah! I see those relief valves, but never have the need to mess with them.

Instead of fooling around with that little stem to let the vapor exit, I have read about freezing the empty cylinder prior to refilling. This makes sense, because the cold temperature helps condense the vapor inside the cylinder. This reduces the internal pressure to allow liquid propane to enter.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

Ah! I see those relief valves, but never have the need to mess with them.

Instead of fooling around with that little stem to let the vapor exit, I have read about freezing the empty cylinder prior to refilling. This makes sense, because the cold temperature helps condense the vapor inside the cylinder. This reduces the internal pressure to allow liquid propane to enter.

That method would not allow a full 80% fill.
I suppose a person could refill often if so motivated.

 

[Texas Proud]

Kohler makes variable speed generators. Here's an example of one:

https://apelectric.com/content/PDF/Kohler/20rca_spec_sheet.pdf

I think that is mine... it is not variable speed... look in the engine section and you see it runs at 3600 RPM all the time..

 

[Souschef]

1. I have 18 oz refillable bottles that have a screw on the side like the big ones do. I invested in the refill kit that consists of a stand for the big bottle upside down and a refill tube with a trigger valve on it, Works great.


2. I have a 4500 watt portable generator. I bought a 6 foot heavy duty appliance extension cord for my refrigerator so I could plug it in to the generator without pulling the refrigerator out to access the plug.

 

[NW-Bound]

I think that is mine... it is not variable speed... look in the engine section and you see it runs at 3600 RPM all the time..

Yes.

The spec sheet talks of an electronic speed control. This could be mistaken as a variable speed controller, but in fact it is an electronic governor that aims to maintain the speed constant at 3600 rpm in the face of varying load.

Many old generators have a mechanical speed governor that opens/closes the throttle as appropriate when the rotation speed changes due to a varying electrical load. This is not very accurate to maintain the precise 60 Hz, plus the response is not very fast.

When you turn on a big load, the mechanical speed governor has to see that the speed drops before it increases the throttle. On the other hand, an electronic speed control can immediately sense that the load has changed by sensing the current drawn. It can then open/close the throttle in a predictive manner before the speed of the generator has changed very much.

 

[Texas Proud]

Yes.

The spec sheet talks of an electronic speed control. This could be mistaken as a variable speed controller, but in fact it is an electronic governor that aims to maintain the speed constant at 3600 rpm in the face of varying load.

Many old generators have a mechanical speed governor that opens/closes the throttle as appropriate when the rotation speed changes due to a varying electrical load. This is not very accurate to maintain the precise 60 Hz, plus the response is not very fast.

When you turn on a big load, the mechanical speed governor has to see that the speed drops before it increases the throttle. On the other hand, an electronic speed control can immediately sense that the load has changed by sensing the current drawn. It can then open/close the throttle in a predictive manner before the speed of the generator has changed very much.

Yes, you can hear the difference in the engine when a big load is turned on... but from what they say the electricity is supposed to be 'clean'...



I just know that it does what I need and I continue to live like I want... big peace of mind for a small amount of money IMO...


BTW, got the money from my mom's estate so I say thank you to her whenever it comes on

 

[Jerry1]

Can you put it in manual then manually start it and transfer power if the power is out for a few hours?

That’s exactly what I do. The on/off switch is a three way toggle. Manual/Off/Auto. I have the unit on off most of the time. When power goes out I move the switch to Auto. Doing that, the unit senses that power is off and starts up. Then, being on Auto, when the power comes back on, the transfer switch shuts down the generator. If I did nothing, the unit would stay on auto and start again the next time the power goes out. Instead, I go out, inspect the unit and turn the switch back to off.

If I turned the unit on with manual during an outage, when the power comes back on, the transfer switch will switch to utility power but the generator would keep running. It would be safe, but obviously I don’t want it running once the power comes back on.

The only time I use manual is to test the unit once a month. I move the switch to manual and it starts up. Since the transfer switch knows the power is on it doesn’t switch over to the generator power, but the unit runs until I switch it to off. I usually let it run about 20 minutes.

 

[ERD50]

Yes, you can hear the difference in the engine when a big load is turned on... but from what they say the electricity is supposed to be 'clean'...

Right, the sound will change as the engine opens the throttle to try to maintain the same speed as the load increases.

Your ear may hear it as a speed increase, but it's just a load increase.

Just like if you hit the gas pedal to accelerate, assuming your car doesn't downshift, you'll hear the change in the engine, but the speed hasn't changed yet.

-ERD50

 

[Calico]

hehe!
Those little bottles do not have a real valve. The poky thing pushes back the sealy bit, and when you unscrew it hopefully it re-sealafies it. Those are the proper technical terms.
I never got one of those, but I do have the hose to use a big bottle in place of those expensive disposables. that is legit.

 

[LateToFIRE]

I think that is mine... it is not variable speed... look in the engine section and you see it runs at 3600 RPM all the time..

Maybe, but if you simply google search Kohler Variable Speed Generator you will get MANY hits. Supposedly mine is variable speed depending on the demand. Sorry, I'm too lazy to go dig up the manual.

Here is a random example:
https://apelectric.com/all-generato...ors/kohler-6vsg-6kw-variable-speed-generator/

 

[ERD50]

Maybe, but if you simply google search Kohler Variable Speed Generator you will get MANY hits. Supposedly mine is variable speed depending on the demand. Sorry, I'm too lazy to go dig up the manual.

Any variable speed generator would have to be an inverter type Those use the generator/alternator to keep a battery charged, and electrical switching inverter converts the battery DC to 50/60 Hz AC (independent of engine speed).

A standard generator must maintain 1800 or 3600 RPM to maintain 60 Hz. Its a direct connection from engine to generator/alternator. Number of poles in the gen/alternator determines the multiple.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

For a remote area in Hawaii I'd buy & have installed something like this first (with the two battery option):

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powe...-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/

It has inputs for grid, solar, and generator recharging.

Any generator will be more efficient recharging those batteries versus directly running variable house loads.

Here's the photo of the above unit. It is a bit pricey at $9294 for 14.3 kWh of storage, plus a 12 kW inverter. This inverter is large enough to run most homes, if you take care not to run large appliances like a clothe dryer/water heater/central AC all at the same time.

For emergency powering of a fridge, some lighting and electronics, plus light cooking with a microwave and an induction cooktop, you can do with a 14.3 kWh battery plus a 3 kW inverter. Prices: $3999 for the battery and $674 for inverter. Note that you can add a 2nd inverter later if you want to power more circuits off the battery.

The $3999 battery is the same as that included in the $9294 combo.

The OP already mentioned he could not accommodate solar panels on the roof, but if you can do that, or have room for a ground-mount array, the above $674 inverter has an internal solar charger that can take 5 kW of solar power. This amount of solar power is about right to go with a 14 kWh battery.

The above is one heck of a deal. These things were not available at the above prices just 4 years ago when I built my DIY system.

Note that the all-in-one inverter charger can also charge the battery with AC power from the grid or a generator. What I like about this set up and also the larger $9K setup is you don't need to run the generator 24 hours. You charge up the battery during the day with an inexpensive $500 inverter generator, then shut off the genset to go to sleep. The battery has enough juice to get you through the night easily with a window AC, unless you need to run a central AC at night.

PS. Note that the $3999 battery has about the same capacity as a Tesla Powerwall. And it is built with LFP cells, which are safer and longer lasting than NMC cells use by Tesla.

 

[SecondAttempt]

We have a generac with transfer switch. Works great , but install was a lot of work. Mine provides power to 16 circuits when the power goes out - these circuits come out of the generac sub panel.

We have natural gas so I can’t answer your propane questions.

I think I have some research to do. My commercial power comes into a pole about 100 feet or so from my house. Locally they call it the "middle pole" but I don't know if that is a universal term. The way it was explained to me is that the middle pole is the last pole on your property if you have more than one and is where the meter is put unless you have an arial feed past the middle pole. The meter is on that pole as well as a panel that feeds a pump shed and the main house with an unused breakout for an "ohana," a potential separate house on the property for a family member.

I am technically zoned to have 2 houses on the property and each may have an ohana, so potentially 4 homes but have no plans to ever add any more homes. The house itself has 100 amp service with it's own service disconnect and subpanel. The pump shed does not use a lot of power so I suspect my overall service is 100 amp but it might be 200 amp. I think the pump shed is only protected by a single breaker at the middle pole. I might need to investigate a bit to see if there are unused feeds for other buildings. So I think what I am saying is that the Generac ATS will power 2 circuits, the pump house and the main house.

I would pour a small slab for the Generac a few feet from the middle pole but would put the propane tank about 90 feet away because I don't think the propane truck drivers would want to drive to the middle pole over uneven and possibly muddy terrain. But, both the cable company and power company have taken some big trucks down there so it is possible. I drive a pickup down there routinely.

I watched a video on hooking up a Generac and it looks pretty straightforward and took less than 2 hours. I would feel comfortable doing it myself but would hire a pro for various reasons including having to coordinate with the utility to shut off power to the meter while the connections are made. The point is, I can't imagine an electrician would charge me more than $500 for the hookup. I can do the slabs and conduit myself.

I'm a mechanical engineer and now manage projects so some of this is familiar territory for me. I have electrical engineer and electrician friends who have a great deal of experience with generators and ATS to call upon and keep myself safe and out of trouble. I also plan to get this all properly permitted.

 

[Ronstar]

I think I have some research to do. My commercial power comes into a pole about 100 feet or so from my house. Locally they call it the "middle pole" but I don't know if that is a universal term. The way it was explained to me is that the middle pole is the last pole on your property if you have more than one and is where the meter is put unless you have an arial feed past the middle pole. The meter is on that pole as well as a panel that feeds a pump shed and the main house with an unused breakout for an "ohana," a potential separate house on the property for a family member.

I am technically zoned to have 2 houses on the property and each may have an ohana, so potentially 4 homes but have no plans to ever add any more homes. The house itself has 100 amp service with it's own service disconnect and subpanel. The pump shed does not use a lot of power so I suspect my overall service is 100 amp but it might be 200 amp. I think the pump shed is only protected by a single breaker at the middle pole. I might need to investigate a bit to see if there are unused feeds for other buildings. So I think what I am saying is that the Generac ATS will power 2 circuits, the pump house and the main house.

I would pour a small slab for the Generac a few feet from the middle pole but would put the propane tank about 90 feet away because I don't think the propane truck drivers would want to drive to the middle pole over uneven and possibly muddy terrain. But, both the cable company and power company have taken some big trucks down there so it is possible. I drive a pickup down there routinely.

I watched a video on hooking up a Generac and it looks pretty straightforward and took less than 2 hours. I would feel comfortable doing it myself but would hire a pro for various reasons including having to coordinate with the utility to shut off power to the meter while the connections are made. The point is, I can't imagine an electrician would charge me more than $500 for the hookup. I can do the slabs and conduit myself.

I'm a mechanical engineer and now manage projects so some of this is familiar territory for me. I have electrical engineer and electrician friends who have a great deal of experience with generators and ATS to call upon and keep myself safe and out of trouble. I also plan to get this all properly permitted.

Where to put the generator is important. You probably already know this. Has to be a certain distance from house wall, windows, doors, furnace vents, etc. and the transfer switch comes with a cable that connects to the generator. I can’t remember the length, but it can be a limiting factor as to where to put the generator.

Good that you are putting it on a concrete slab. I put mine on a gravel base with landscape timber edging.

I had a plumber hook mine up to the gas meter. And I needed a bigger gas meter to accommodate the generator. Plumber told me to keep snow away from the generator exhaust. Haven’t had any problem with that yet.

 

[Scubamax]

We put in a whole house generator a few years ago. It was a BTD project, but decided to go top of the line all the way.

We purchased our own propane tank and buried it. 1000 gallons. If you are going for 250 or 500 look at 1000 as a viable option since you are looking for power redundancy why not go all the way? In terms of tank placement, ask propane supplier how long of a hose they have on their delivery truck...they don't have to come right up to the tank to refill.

Also note that propane tanks get filled to about 80% max to allow for expansion, so that is another thing to consider.

We opted for a Cummins/Onan LP generator. It is much more expensive than the others it is what you would find at a hospital or other critical application. I do not recalll all of the specs but it runs at a much lower rpm than the others, which is less wear and tear on the mechanics over time. It is much more robust (better built).

In terms of doing the work yourself or with friends, be careful with running and connecting LP lines...I would strongly suggest getting a licensed tech who does this for a living (gas plumber), unless you have the tools and know what you are doing to be compliant with code and safety requirements.

One thing to consider is learing how to shut down the generator and start back up properly. Our strategy is if we have an extended power outage, (several days), we really don't need power overnight unless we need A/C or heat. (I know you are in HI). Food can go several hours in the freezer and fridge without power. In a really bad situation you can use this strategy to really conserve your fuel without a lot of sacrifice. If you only need fans at night for a bit of cooling then consider some battery power sources for that use case. Just something to consider.

I am no Hank Hill, just some experience from owning 2 homes with propane.

 

[old medic]

PS: This generator has one issue (No 50A 220V outlet) so I had to jerry rig one otherwise you can't use all available 10KW.

I did the same at out old house, Generator sat outside the shop and plugged into the 50A welder outlet. At the new house I have all of our "must have" circuits on the same leg and can run them with a smaller inverter generator with a 120/30A outlet.
I prefer gas over propane. It more of a PITA, but Gas gives a little more power, and runs longer and way cheaper. Per hour cost is .51 Vs .91 per hour.

 

[Texas Proud]

I think you have to hire a pro to do the change of the main line from the utility...



When they installed mine they scheduled it with the utility and removed the meter and the main line... did all the work in the panel to hook the ATS to it and then the generator to ATS and then the utility line to ATS... (could be wrong in this order as I was not there the whole time.. just remember what they said)...


Also, I have a BIL who is an electrician and he said that he has observed that a number of EEs should not be messing with live electricity... that is not their skill even if they could design it easily...

 

[Spock]

....
Also, I have a BIL who is an electrician and he said that he has observed that a number of EEs should not be messing with live electricity... that is not their skill even if they could design it easily...

As a BSEE myself, I keep my hands in my pockets when around sparky stuff.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I
Also, I have a BIL who is an electrician and he said that he has observed that a number of EEs should not be messing with live electricity... that is not their skill even if they could design it easily...

Lol, while I agree with your BIL, one of my friends specializes in utility power distribution and is a plant engineer for a facility with critical power backup/ATS needs. Contrast that with the vast majority of electricians in Hawaii rarely encountering generators and ATS equipment my plan is to hire the electrician but run anything he plans to do by my friend.

Similarly, while I typically do my own plumbing, I plan to hire a real plumber for the gas line but will do the trenching myself.

Part of my thinking is not just lacking expertise but I've also gotten to the age where my favorite tool is my checkbook!

 

[NW-Bound]

Nowadays, EEs learn mostly about electronics, little thinggies that work with 3.3V and below. What do they know about high power stuff?

Despite being a hand-on guy and having played with high-voltage vacuum tubes since 8th grade, I did not appreciate the fire danger caused by DC arcing with solar panels until I researched into this area. I then learned what I did not know.

So, before I embark on something new, I spend a lot of time to research it.


PS. 46 years ago, the BSEE curriculum required one class in Electromechanics, where the theory of DC and AC motors was taught. The university was changing the curriculum to delete that class to make room for more computer-related classes. I was among the last to graduate under the old curriculum.

 

[aja8888]

Nowadays, EEs learn mostly about electronics, little thinggies that work with 3.3V and below. What do they know about high power stuff?

Despite being a hand-on guy and having played with high-voltage vacuum tubes since 8th grade, I did not appreciate the fire danger caused by DC arcing with solar panels until I researched into this area. I then learned what I did not know.

So, before I embark on something new, I spend a lot of time to research it.


PS. 46 years ago, the BSEE curriculum required one class in Electromechanics, where the theory of DC and AC motors was taught. The university was changing the curriculum to delete that class to make room for more computer-related classes. I was among the last to graduate under the old curriculum.

When I worked in heavy manufacturing (as Engineering Manager), we had EE's, electricians (wired stuff) , and power guys (up to 2300 V). In the late 1970's I hired our first digital EE to install microprocessor based equipment controls.

 

[ERD50]

.... Also, I have a BIL who is an electrician and he said that he has observed that a number of EEs should not be messing with live electricity... that is not their skill even if they could design it easily...

I agree with the other engineers on that. Electrical codes often deal with safety, and aren't apparent to a EE in terms of whether it works from a schematic viewpoint.

An example came to me - early in my career, someone asked for help - their hallway light wasn't working, the typical "one switch at each end of the hallway, either switch turns the light on/off" arrangement.

Well, I never really thought about exactly how these things were wired, but it certainly wasn't anything complicated. And oddly, they refer to the switches used as "Three-Way" switches. To an EE, that's not right - these circuits use two identical "Single Pole - Double Throw" (SPDT) switches! What's with "three-way"?

So I sketch out how I figured it is wired, and came up with the bottom drawing. Now, that works perfectly fine. If the left switch it UP (HOT), when the right switch is UP, it will be connected to HOT, and there is no difference in potential, so no current, no light. Flip the right switch DOWN, and now current flows from Left (HOT) to RIGHT (Neutral), etc, etc. That works! And assuming you have a hot and neutral at each end of the hallway, you only need the wires to the light fixture, and you need those anyway. Simple, right?

But, that is *NOT* per code, not the correct way to do it, and for a couple of very good safety reasons. A light fixture should be wired such that the outer screw-thread base part is connected to NEUTRAL (never HOT) - it's easier to come into contact with that, and you could get a lethal shock if you touched it while grounded. The HOT wire goes to the more recessed little contact to the base of the bulb. But my schematic would flip which side of the bulb is HOT, depending on the switch settings. You'd never really know which side was HOT. Considering these are usually fixtures that aren't in easy reach, it would rarely ever cause a problem, but attention to these details is what makes electricity as safe as it is.

Another issue is, you could easily tap into the HOT of one breaker/circuit on one side, and a different circuit/breaker on the other side of the hallway. So you might flip the breaker to work on it, not realizing there are two circuits involved. A GFCI in the panel would be tripped by this configuration.


Look at the upper drawing - Geez, we have to run two wires between those distant switches, AND wires to the bulb socket - seems like a waste, right? But wired this way, one end of the bulb is always connected to NEUTRAL, and one is connected to a (switched) HOT. And, there is only one HOT and one NEUTRAL, no chance of connecting two hots.

NOTE: Code requires a Neutral be run to each box now.


-ERD50

 

[Texas Proud]

ERD50, I will give you another option... but do not know how to show it...


It took 2 electricians a whole day to figure out how it was wired to fix it... I was lucky and it was paid by the house warranty...


I had a kitchen light that was on a 3 way circuit... I also had a circuit that went to the garage and controlled the garage door.. well, that circuit blew somehow and did not work... EXCEPT when I turn on the kitchen light..


The 3 way switch that was closest to the garage (and btw it was not that close only had connection to the other switch through the light... they tied some wire into the circuit that went out to the garage and when I turned on the light it bleed into that circuit and I could use my garage door opener..


They finally figured it out and rewired it correctly...

 

[ERD50]

ERD50, I will give you another option... but do not know how to show it...


It took 2 electricians a whole day to figure out how it was wired to fix it... I was lucky and it was paid by the house warranty...


I had a kitchen light that was on a 3 way circuit... I also had a circuit that went to the garage and controlled the garage door.. well, that circuit blew somehow and did not work... EXCEPT when I turn on the kitchen light..


The 3 way switch that was closest to the garage (and btw it was not that close only had connection to the other switch through the light... they tied some wire into the circuit that went out to the garage and when I turned on the light it bleed into that circuit and I could use my garage door opener..


They finally figured it out and rewired it correctly...

I kinda remember that thread.

If you look at my diagram for the correct wiring, you'll see that certain wires only get powered at certain switch settings. What sometimes happens is that someone will see that one of those lines is "hot" and tie into, not realizing it's only hot with some switch settings.

So you run into what you describe, the other circuit only works with the right combination of switches in the 3-way circuit. Some will blame poltergeists for messing with their lights!


-ERD50

 

[NewEnglander]

1.5 years ago we installed a whole house Kohler 20kw generator and 1000g LP tank which we buried in the yard with underground lines to the house/generator. We also use LP for backup heat to our heat pump heating for cooking and for an LP fireplace. The difference in cost between 500g tanks and 1000g tank was less than $1300. We like the larger tank so we can purchase propane once per year when costs are usually lowest in Sept-Oct.

We lose power several times per year with some outages extending days sometimes (Hurricanes or wind storms taking down trees) . In the last 12 months our generator was used 3 times, once for 2 hours, then 7 hours and 18 hours. We have 10,800w of solar too but did not go with batteries due to the cost and the extended times of our outages.

When the service guy came to do the annual service he mentioned that they service both Kohler and Generac. He said service on Kohlers takes less than ½ the time of Generacs because Generacs need valve adjustments where the Kohler models use hydraulic lifters needing no valve service. He mentioned several other things he liked about the Kohler over the Generac. There was no cost difference between brands but all three companies quoting our system quoted and preferred Kohlers.

We paid approximately $15K for the generator, tank, Poured concrete pad for the generator , all installation and permits, Carb heater for the generator.

One thing I'd recommend is a hard wired cat6 line to the generator so you can access the unit from the internet. You'll receive notices when power is out and if you wish when the units does it's weekly or bi-weekly test runs. Kohler includes no cost monitoring with their app.