Realistic = no hope!

[samclem]

You do realize that the logical extension of your argument is to simply take all of a society's wealth and give it to the one person who can make the best decisions.

Maybe not. After all, it is entirely possible that there is a limit to the amount of resources even the most talented individual can effectively put to work. If we avoid any forced redistribution and allow people to earn their own resources then this homeostatic mechanism, in general, allots the most resources to those most adept at handling them--but gives them no more. To modify a phrase: "To each according to his abilities . . ."

And, about the avatar: What DOES she see in him? Maybe she likes to be by herself for 6 months a year?

 

[Gumby]

And, about the avatar: What DOES she see in him? Maybe she likes to be by herself for 6 months a year?

Well, a regular deployment schedule does avoid those messy husband/boyfriend confrontations.

 

[bbbamI]

Hmmm, I was thinking along different lines regarding the advantages of a submariner...but I shall refrain...

 

[Gumby]

"aaaooogaa, aaaooogaa, dive, dive."

 

[NW-Bound]

Regarding "exiting the Matrix", along with all of us I am awaiting Brogan's more definitive answer. It is interesting to hear that he is from Europe. People who have been here know I rave all the time about taking trips through Europe. But to renounce my US citizenship to relocate there? No way! I have several personal reasons not related to taxes, but let consider just taxes.

Can anyone here provide any proof that the tax burden is lower in Europe than in the US? From what I have heard and read, with apologies to Europeans among us, they tend to be much more of a nanny state than the US. In fact, I find it alarming that we are heading that way, to be more like them. I have friends and relatives living in Europe, and frankly, I much prefer the personal freedom I enjoy here. While it lasts of course...

Now, perhaps Brogan suggests that we escape to a third world country. Hell, I am sure there are countries where the tax collection system is non-existent. Services are also non-existent, but the rich can purchase them à la carte. Perhaps that is the attractiveness. That's how one does not have to pay to support others of lesser means. I am not going into a debate of the morality of this, so will stick with just the practical aspects.

From what I have heard, the above are also places where one has to pay for "taxes" in bribery to corrupt officials, or for Mafia-like protection. Rich people, particularly foreigners, would stand out in these places. One would need to know to befriend the local honcho man, or rub elbows and shoulders with people he detests. Hah!

In a former multi-national megacorp where I worked, I had colleagues from all around the world. Of course their views might be biased, given that they were all naturalized US citizens. All of them had advanced engineering degrees, and I would think they would be able to do well in their countries. I am talking about people with Ph.D. from Europe, Middle East, SouthEast Asia, and North Africa. Did they want to go back? Can you guess an answer?

I do not like the way certain things are going in the US, but I am going to stay and try to influence it in whatever legal and peaceful ways I can. People who want to leave are of course free to do so on their cognizance.

 

[traineeinvestor]

There are a number of places where the tax rate is lower than the US (or many other high tax jurisidictions). In Hong Kong, the effective top tax rate on salaries is 15% with most people paying less than that. Similar rates apply to rental income and business profits. There are no taxes on dividends or interest, no capital gains taxes and no estate taxes.

Also importantly, it takes me about 5 minutes to complete my annual salaries tax return and about ten miunutes to do the return for each property.

The other option is to become a perpetual tourist. If you hold a passport issued by a country which does not tax non-resident citizens (which is most countries), you can legitimately avoid paying most taxes by spending less time in each country that will deem you to be resident. It's not a lifestyle that I would choose, but it is possible.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I'm not a troll.

Really? You meet all the criteria. Inflammatory statements in your first post. No introduction. No data. No logical statements. No developed arguments, just argument. If it poops like a Canadian Goose and honks like a Canadian Goose, maybe it is a Canadian Goose.

Ed in Cowtown, AB.

 

[kumquat]

Hey, quit dumping on us Canucks (like a Canada goose).

 

[brewer12345]

Seriously, I wish we would have a prolonged hunting season for Canuck geese around here. Damn things are overrunning every body of water and polluting the crap (heh) out of the water.

 

[Meadbh]

Canada geese were responsible for downing Sully's plane.....

But of course they are nomads. I wonder which country they pay tax in?

 

[FreqFlyer]

I traveled to Liberia in Africa this year. If anyone wants to move to a country without many taxes or any scrap of a nanny state you can certainly give it a try.

Hope you're also not looking for the nanny state to give you unemployment or social security. Also don't look for the gov't to send police or fire protection, they don't even have stoplights or city power. There are some police now but mostly it's the United Nations trying to keep the peace.

I travel to many countries for work, many of them are so-called developing economies. I thank my good fortune to live in America each time I come home. I'm not in love with paying taxes but I'm so grateful for the freedom opportunity here at home.

 

[brewer12345]

Canada geese were responsible for downing Sully's plane.....

But of course they are nomads. I wonder which country they pay tax in?

They most definately are not nomads here. Year round permanent residents and in most places protected by law, so the only way to deal with them is try to chase them to someone else's property. But nothing a hunting season would not help with.

 

[ultimo]

Can anyone here provide any proof that the tax burden is lower in Europe than in the US? From what I have heard and read, with apologies to Europeans among us, they tend to be much more of a nanny state than the US. In fact, I find it alarming that we are heading that way, to be more like them. I have friends and relatives living in Europe, and frankly, I much prefer the personal freedom I enjoy here. While it lasts of course...

Taxes aren't everything. The cost of health care, old age pensions, education, etc., also figures in. Taxes in the U.S. buy us the world's largest military. What do high taxes buy you in France or Australia?

 

[Zathras]

Taxes aren't everything...

I thought taxes were one of the central pillars of your rant

 

[REWahoo]

I thought taxes were one of the central pillars of your rant

Are you confusing ultimo with Brogan007?

 

[brewer12345]

Are you confusing ultimo with Brogan007?

Not all that hard to do...

 

[Zathras]

DOH, my bad, appologies ultimo.

 

[old woman]

OP the problem with the never afford to retire theory is you are looking at too low of savings and too high of lifestyle.

Saving 10% doesn't normally happen at first, people want to get an education, buy a home, have babies and don't save that much until sometimes 30. Most don't earn 100K and the lower you earn the less it takes to retire at the same living standard.

Personally I didn't start until 35 then only 2K a year for a few years. But the last 7 years I have been saving almost half my income and I am pretty low income. If I earn 60K and save 25K when I retire I only need about 35K to achieve the same standard of living. I also won't pay into SS so save 7.65% there too. But need to pay for medical insurance and have perhaps other higher cost. Social security will pay me about 15-18K a year so only need about 20K from investments. I have over 400K now, not a fortune but better than nothing. If I continue to delay retirement, save 25K a year and let SS increase 8% a year I can have over 25K a year in retirement investment income but only need 15K so my nest egg can still grow and I can continue to live the same lifestyle I have now.

I won't retire young like some people because I started saving to late and too slow but I won't be a burden on you either. Many people retire as a couple so two SS checks and even 300K each invested gives them a decent life.

If you earn 100K and save 10K you aren't saving enough save 25K and you can live a much better lifestyle because you will be used to living on 75K instead of 90K and have 2.5 times as much invested.

 

[rescueme]

If you earn 100K and save 10K you aren't saving enough

You do what you can, depending on your time of life. In our 30's my DW/me saved nothing. Why? Simply the fact that we were "covered" under our respective companies retirement plans ....

As we aged, we started at 2% of our salary (early 80's), and increasing to 33% of our gross salary, ten years before we retired (actually I'm retired; my DW is still thinking about it ).

Not to say that anybody should do (e.g. make a "rule"), but just to reflect on what we actually did....

 

[calmloki]

Canada geese were responsible for downing Sully's plane.....

But of course they are nomads. I wonder which country they pay tax in?

Birds have feelings too: Starlings give twitchers the bird | Metro.co.uk

These are Dusky geese from Ankeny reservoir a few miles from here.

 

[beowulf]

I consider myself to be an average Joe - never had one of those really high paying jobs or stock options, slowly progressed up the ladder to a mid-level position and saved when I could. In a year or two I'll retire and I'm pretty sure we will be able to live much the same as we have been for the past 40 years - decently, solidly middle class, not extravagently yet not in need of anything. All this on a middle of the road income, very little house trading (lived in same house for 27 years) and no keeping up with the neighbors.

Our kids went to public schools and colleges (for both bachelors and masters degrees). My DW and I went to "free" public colleges - meaning they were free to us, but someone else (the taxpayer) was footing the bill. I also earned graduate degrees through the munificence of the GI bill program (before they made soldiers put in their own money).

I've seen countless arguments in many places by people who don't want to pay for other's school, health, etc. The problem with that logic is that we all take advantage (or have the ability to) of taxpayer funded programs unless we are so rich we can fund everything ourselves. Taxes are the consequence of living in a free society. Right now our federal tax burden is the lowest it has been in a very long time. I certainly don't want to pay more for things I don't use, but fully understand the necessity of spreading the pain around. At one point or another, I believe most people have used some or many of the benefits available. I've been unemployed and received unemployment insurance. Our kids received federal college loans. And it goes on.

FWIW, we have lived in Europe (courtesy of the US Army) and there is nothing more that Europeans like to complain about than the high taxes. The VAT runs from 15% to 30% in most European countries - think about it - clothes that would cost 100 Euros cost 130 Euros with the VAT. Plus income taxes are pretty high in all those countries and downright confiscatory in some (Great Britain). If I am not mistaken, I believe the highest US tax bracket at one time in our not so distant past was as high as 90%. And now the highest marginal rate is something like 35% (?) - I don't know exactly as I've never hit that level.

Personally, the only reason I can imagine for becoming an expat would be if our country went down some insane road of internal (then external) genocide like Germany did in the 1930s. Nor can I picture events which would turn me so violently against our government that I would go "off the grid" and risk everything just to protest high taxes.

I don't know if brogan is a citizen, if he votes or what his income is. But I have not missed an election in 40 years (though some were done absentee) and I have no qualms at all about expressing my views to our elected representatives. That's the way our society works - I really do believe in the addage "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

[MuirWannabe]

I have no qualms at all about expressing my views to our elected representatives. That's the way our society works - I really do believe in the addage "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Don't think I'd want to defend to the death anything Barney Frank says.

 

[FinanceDude]

Taxes aren't everything. The cost of health care, old age pensions, education, etc., also figures in. Taxes in the U.S. buy us the world's largest military. What do high taxes buy you in France or Australia?

In France, you get awesome wine, great art, and nuclear power plants everywhere......and of course socialiazed medicine. Oops, I almost forgot, you also get a military that's so bad you need to ask the US for help in every conflict..........

 

[beowulf]

Don't think I'd want to defend to the death anything Barney Frank says.

Once you start deciding whose free speech has merit you want to defend, we all lose the right to speak freely. Think about it.

 

[Zathras]

Don't think I'd want to defend to the death anything Barney Frank says.

Beowulf didn't say you should or that he would.
He said we would defend anyone's right to say anything they wanted.
If you don't believe in the freedom of speech you can bring those concerns to your elected representatives or even start a petition