Realistic = no hope!

[brewer12345]

Lawdy, lawdy we should all hang our heads in shame. Not.

There is a not unreasonable presumption on the part of most regulars here that new posters introduce themselves and prove that they are interested in debate (rather than trolling, spamming, etc.) Before they get taken seriously. There are reasons for this: azanon, h0cu$, and many others. So new posters looking to stir the pot would be well advised to make introductions before they start p!ssing in everyone's cornflakes.

 

[W2R]

This in no way is a negative comment on folks who are content to live on a modest ( insert your figure here) income that is probably below the radar ( it'll have to be pretty damned modest) of the tax hawks.

What would you say to our forum members who are retired and living a relatively luxurious lifestyle? Many of us do, and many do not find that their lifetyle is seriously threatened by our present tax structure. After all, our planning for retirement took taxes into account from the start.

Or did you simply not bother to read the forum for a while before posting for the first time in such an inflammatory way as to come off like a troll to so many seasoned, experienced forum members?

 

[kyounge1956]

Just to make my thoughts clear.
I've nothing to sell. I'm not a troll. I don't spam.
What I do enjoy is debate, the exchange of views.
Like the movie said...We ( USA) really do live in an advanced democracy...where we must listen to others who have views that are directly opposed to our own.
So what? There is no "right". It is our obligation to question.
Many have lost the ability or willingness to debate. Just look at the so-called townhall meetings recently on healthcare reform.
Ouch.
My whole purpose for posting was to initiate an exchange of views. I originate in Europe, where folks sit in pubs/cafes & discuss things.
Things like religeon, politics, abortion, sex.
Lordy lordy...in this country, from what I've experienced, that creates a stunned silence in the room.
I really miss open debate in the US. Here, it seems, if one questions the "system" one gets labled as a loony real quick. ( no offence to our Northern buds!)
I QUESTION the future of the US economic model. I QUESTION who is going to provide the $$$$$ that Joe will need to live on in his later years. Coz sure as hell, Joe doesn't have it in his account today.
I question why I, me, Brogan should have to see my hard earned cash go to support all the tens of millions of Joe's. I'm just wanting a debate on the concept...to see what others think AND WHAT WE/I CAN DO ABOUT IT.
This is what forums are for no?
I'm not a loony.
The press, the govt, this forum, EVERYONE....never really fess's up to this 800lb gorilla. I see a train wreck coming.
Retirement is a personal thing. Not a one-size-fits-all. I do get it.
But....for those of us who are lucky enough to live an above average life-style & have built up an above average portfolio...it is sickening ( my personal feelings only ) to realise that I'm going to be singled out even more in the next 30 yrs to support Joe.
When I question that the system sucks....it's an opinion.
I'm shocked at the forum mods being so closed minded to my alternate opinion, or maybe I missed the small print at sign-up re. all "Black Hats" stay out.
My thoughts re. exiting the "Matrix"...not illegal. There's a whole world out there...places where there's no income tax.....yes, really.
Why flame me for pointing out a fact?
Overall, I'm one of the fortunate few. I HAVE a choice.
I'm mad as hell & I'm considering not taking it anymore.
This in no way is a negative comment on folks who are content to live on a modest ( insert your figure here) income that is probably below the radar ( it'll have to be pretty damned modest) of the tax hawks.

My 25c.
Brogan.
PS : a great quote...." Democracy is 2 wolves & a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb disputing the vote"
( I don't own a gun, before the rocks start flying)

Brogan,
I don't understand. Since you originate in Europe, why are you worried about who will pay for people in the US who haven't saved enough for retirement? Are you a US citizen planning on staying overseas? Becoming an expat is one way not to pay for Joe-in-the-US, but mightn't you just end up paying for someone in your new country of residence instead?

 

[rescueme]

What would you say to our forum members who are retired and living a relatively luxurious lifestyle? Many of us do, and many do not find that their lifetyle is seriously threatened by our present tax structure. After all, our planning for retirement took taxes into account from the start.

Hey - I resemble that remark!!! ...

 

[Zathras]

Just to make my thoughts clear...

I think this is the reason you have seen such adverse reaction to your comments, they have not been all that clear. Thank you for taking the time to clarify them.

I QUESTION the future of the US economic model. I QUESTION who is going to provide the $$$$$ that Joe will need to live on in his later years. Coz sure as hell, Joe doesn't have it in his account today.

Some people have been asking the same questions and predicting the end of capitalism/society (take your pick) since the New Deal was enacted.
That is not to dismiss the question, it is a wonderful question. However, assuming that the worse possible result is the only possible result is not valid in many peoples minds.

I question why I, me, Brogan should have to see my hard earned cash go to support all the tens of millions of Joe's. I'm just wanting a debate on the concept...to see what others think AND WHAT WE/I CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Let me respond with a question of my own. Why should I have to see my hard earned cash go to support the tens of millions of Joe Jrs in public schools?
The reason I ask is the answer to your question depends on if you feel society should support it's own individuals AT ALL.

Retirement is a personal thing. Not a one-size-fits-all. I do get it.

Excellent, so you admit that it is and will still be possible for people who plan to be able to retire? Your subject title was rather... absolute. With no room for possibility.

I'm shocked at the forum mods being so closed minded to my alternate opinion, or maybe I missed the small print at sign-up re. all "Black Hats" stay out.

It isn't the opinion, it is the delivery. You use lots of terms but never were very clear about what you actually meant. This is easy to deal with in a face to face conversation. But when posting on a forum it is more important to be clear the first time. Your next comment was a great example.

My thoughts re. exiting the "Matrix"...not illegal. There's a whole world out there...places where there's no income tax.....yes, really.
Why flame me for pointing out a fact?

First, you stated exiting the Matrix, not move to another country. From the movie, the term seems to imply 'going underground' and brings up images of illegal activity (illegal from the standpoint of the establishment). If you had been more clear, people may not have believed you were suggesting avoiding taxes illegally.
Second, it wasn't a flame, it was a comment that a person made indicating they don't like a plan that involves illegal activitiy. Which your 'exit the Matrix' comment without additional clarification seemed to imply.

Overall, I'm one of the fortunate few. I HAVE a choice.
I'm mad as hell & I'm considering not taking it anymore.

Total aside from the post, but I am just curious, did you vote in the last couple of elections for your representatives in congress and the senate?

 

[REWahoo]

Brogan,
Becoming an expat is one way not to pay for Joe-in-the-US, but mightn't you just end up paying for someone in your new country of residence instead?

Not necessarily: A One-Way Ticket to Mars

 

[fritz]

Wow, you guys must all be Americans to be so closed minded.
Debate is an essential tool in a democracy....pity you guys don't seem to undersatnd it.

Brogan has not participated in the banter since this last comment (attached) on Sunday evening? It would appear that although Brogan threw the first pitch/introduction to this organization - the last comment came across as no longer willing to continue to play ball with this group.

Reading all prior responses to Brogan b/4 my first post ever with this organization - and those following it - am I correct that no one ever referred Brogan to source information on this website for further assistance with his questions/post? Being new to the site myself - I have to admit I stumble along trying to find information here.

I am surprised at how quickly some assumed the worst of Brogan's post. Pretty hard to get someone let their guard down and open up when they feel even the hint of being attacked - especially when you open yourself up to immediate feedback when communicating with an online community. During my career of been there, done that, stepped in enough of it - I have learned how difficult it is to effectively communicate (and not to appear to have stepped in it again).

 

[REWahoo]

Brogan has not participated in the banter since this last comment (attached) on Sunday evening?

Fritz, looks like you missed his post an hour or so ago: http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f26/realistic-no-hope-47500-5.html#post879799

 

[RonBoyd]

Just to make my thoughts clear.
I've nothing to sell. I'm not a troll. I don't spam.

Don't worry about it. This is simply the way this forum works. My first dozen or so post were met with the same accusations... regardless of whichever subject I responded to. It never made sense to me (still doesn't) but I survived it somewhat unscathed and scarless. They'll eventually (someday) let you join.

 

[CuppaJoe]

... So new posters looking to stir the pot would be well advised to make introductions before they start p!ssing in everyone's cornflakes.

That’s pretty funny, Brewer. The cornflakes are sitting on the counter waiting for my whim to put them in a bowl with blueberries and banana. OP, that is one of the joys of early retirement, I can eat breakfast anytime I want and not have to worry about concealing that fact at w*rk, or gulping it down on too-short breaks.

Okay, I’m not really CuppaJoe, I’m AverageJo who never had an impressive job or big income but I did learn about investing in the market while still in my 20s. I, too, feel that I live a very luxurious lifestyle now, in the central part of a large city/metro area, spending my days taking advantage of the many activities available. If I log off suddenly, it’ll be because UPS delivered my new flat screen TV. Setting up electronic equipment at home has become my new j*b, albeit temporary.

 

[fritz]

Apologize, I was a little slow in responding - I started this reply before those others appeared (got interrupted).

Appears the comments still apply

 

[REWahoo]

I'm shocked at the forum mods being so closed minded to my alternate opinion, or maybe I missed the small print at sign-up re. all "Black Hats" stay out.

Yet you appear to still be a member of the forum with full privileges to post and state your opinions.

No one has done anything other than what you've done - state their opinion. Surely you did not expect to post here and have everyone agree with you. That wouldn't be a debate, would it?

 

[REWahoo]

Don't worry about it. This is simply the way this forum works. My first dozen or so post were met with the same accusations... regardless of whichever subject I responded to. It never made sense to me (still doesn't) but I survived it somewhat unscathed and scarless. They'll eventually (someday) let you join.

That "lack of introducing yourself" thing often comes back to bite...

 

[FIREd]

\Becoming an expat is one way not to pay for Joe-in-the-US, but mightn't you just end up paying for someone in your new country of residence instead?

Exactly. The US is hardly the only country where one half of the population has been/is/will be supported by the other half. If Brogan is European, he must understand that. So taxes have to be levied one way or the other. Yes some countries do not have an income tax. But it does not mean that you will be paying lower taxes at all. They might get you with the VAT, property taxes or fees.

 

[calmloki]

looking back it looks like the first responses were direct answers to Brogan with specific instructions on how to achieve a (safe as anything in life) retirement. He hasn't yet said just where he plans to go off Matrix. No problems if he just wants to rant, but I'm not seeing anything other than rant. Maybe admit its a rant up front though - my personal demons involve worry about China owning the US and health care costs - can't do much in the large about those, but can try to deal within the system to my personal benefit and protection. So Brogan - where ya gonna go? Belize? Thailand? Philippines? Wilds of Idaho? Do you have any solutions or are you just ranting?

 

[Keim]

Trust me, Calmloki, we in the Wilds of Idaho also pay our taxes and plan for retirement. We just whine about the "Gubbermint" while we do it.

 

[RonBoyd]

That "lack of introducing yourself" thing often comes back to bite...

I have no regrets.

 

[calmloki]

Trust me, Calmloki, we in the Wilds of Idaho also pay our taxes and plan for retirement. We just whine about the "Gubbermint" while we do it.

Good on ya - my neighbor across the street had an ongoing battle with the IRS for over 15 years - he lost his house, but said he figured he made out, saving more in unpaid taxes than he lost in home equity. He was pretty upfront about it with the government - sent in "I don't have to pay because income is defined in blabla decision as the money money makes" and such like. He had great fun fighting with them - not my idea of a good time. Oregon has its own complement of outback tax protesters - my brother is surrounded by them down in the Myrtle Creek/Glide area. Not my intent to foist Brogan off on you!

 

[Cattusbabe]

Exactly. The US is hardly the only country where one half of the population has been/is/will be supported by the other half. If Brogan is European, he must understand that. So taxes have to be levied one way or the other. Yes some countries do not have an income tax. But it does not mean that you will be paying lower taxes at all. They might get you with the VAT, property taxes or fees.

Yes, yes, yes. The age old question of what the haves owe to the have nots. As if the have's
did it all by themselves totally and even if that were true does anyone think that the have nots will just sit benignly by in awe of the have's accomplishments accepting that they have less through their own lack of planning and effort and thus deserve their fate?

I don't think so. In fact I know they won't because they never have in the past. Think the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution to name two.
IMO the have nots in this country have directed their anger in the wrong direction. Lucky for the haves. That could change. Not so lucky for the haves. In the end the root of the have not's anger is the same as it has been through out history, a crappy quality of life and a lack of opportunity and advancement.
Now to my mind if I have to spread the wealth a bit to keep things steady then I'm cool with that. You can pay now or pay later but your gonna pay either way.

 

[ziggy29]

IMO the have nots in this country have directed their anger in the wrong direction. Lucky for the haves. That could change. Not so lucky for the haves. In the end the root of the have not's anger is the same as it has been through out history, a crappy quality of life and a lack of opportunity and advancement.

If you said a crappy quality of life "relative to the haves" above, I might agree, but in comparing this to the Russian Revolution or the French Revolution, I dare say the average French peasant in 1789 or average Russian peasant in 1917 would have killed for the quality of life many of today's "have nots" experience currently.

Am I saying that means it's all fine and good? Of course not -- but perspective is in order here. The fact is that as society overall gets more prosperous, we have a tendency to redefine what a minimally acceptable standard of living is. Fifty years ago, it didn't include a TV and 20 years ago, it didn't include a computer. And IMO, comparing today's poor with the peasants before the French and Russian revolutions is an extreme stretch of the imagination except in that their perception can become their reality, particularly with the right people fanning the flames of discontent.

 

[samclem]

You can pay now or pay later but your gonna pay either way.

But it won't be just the "haves" paying. This is not a fixed-size pie. When property is taken from the "haves" to give to the "have nots," society gets poorer overall, and often even the "have nots" end up with less. Why does society get poorer?
-- Like anything else, when hard work, initiative, and risk taking (entrepreneurship/investing) is taxed, then there will be less of it.
-- On the whole (not true in each case) the "haves" got to be that way by making better decisions regarding allocation of resources and talent than the "have nots." Efficiently allocating resources is a key to growing societal wealth. If we take money from people who do it better (in general) and give to to people who do it less well (in general), we should expect less societal wealth--a smaller pie.

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck."
- Robert A. Heinlein, "Time Enough for Love"

 

[SarahW]

-- Like anything else, when hard work, initiative, and risk taking (entrepereneurship/investing) is taxed, then there will be less of it.
-- On the whole (not true in each case) the "haves" got to be that way by making better decisions regarding allocation of resources and talent than the "have nots." Efficiently allocating resources is a key to growing societal wealth. If we take money from people who do it beter (in general) and give to to people who do it less well (in general), we shoud expect less societal wealth--a smaller pie.

Can I get an "amen."

 

[Gumby]

Just to make my thoughts clear.
I've nothing to sell. I'm not a troll. I don't spam.
What I do enjoy is debate, the exchange of views.
Like the movie said...We ( USA) really do live in an advanced democracy...where we must listen to others who have views that are directly opposed to our own.
So what? There is no "right". It is our obligation to question.
Many have lost the ability or willingness to debate. Just look at the so-called townhall meetings recently on healthcare reform.
Ouch.
My whole purpose for posting was to initiate an exchange of views. I originate in Europe, where folks sit in pubs/cafes & discuss things.
Things like religeon, politics, abortion, sex.
Lordy lordy...in this country, from what I've experienced, that creates a stunned silence in the room.
I really miss open debate in the US. Here, it seems, if one questions the "system" one gets labled as a loony real quick. ( no offence to our Northern buds!)
I QUESTION the future of the US economic model. I QUESTION who is going to provide the $$$$$ that Joe will need to live on in his later years. Coz sure as hell, Joe doesn't have it in his account today.
I question why I, me, Brogan should have to see my hard earned cash go to support all the tens of millions of Joe's. I'm just wanting a debate on the concept...to see what others think AND WHAT WE/I CAN DO ABOUT IT.
This is what forums are for no?
I'm not a loony.
The press, the govt, this forum, EVERYONE....never really fess's up to this 800lb gorilla. I see a train wreck coming.
Retirement is a personal thing. Not a one-size-fits-all. I do get it.
But....for those of us who are lucky enough to live an above average life-style & have built up an above average portfolio...it is sickening ( my personal feelings only ) to realise that I'm going to be singled out even more in the next 30 yrs to support Joe.
When I question that the system sucks....it's an opinion.
I'm shocked at the forum mods being so closed minded to my alternate opinion, or maybe I missed the small print at sign-up re. all "Black Hats" stay out.
My thoughts re. exiting the "Matrix"...not illegal. There's a whole world out there...places where there's no income tax.....yes, really.
Why flame me for pointing out a fact?
Overall, I'm one of the fortunate few. I HAVE a choice.
I'm mad as hell & I'm considering not taking it anymore.
This in no way is a negative comment on folks who are content to live on a modest ( insert your figure here) income that is probably below the radar ( it'll have to be pretty damned modest) of the tax hawks.

My 25c.
Brogan.
PS : a great quote...." Democracy is 2 wolves & a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb disputing the vote"
( I don't own a gun, before the rocks start flying)

Brogan:

I'm glad you are sticking around and I'll take you at your word that you are selling nothing. But would it have been so hard to say something along the lines of "Hi, I'm Brogan. I think that in the near future taxes will reach confiscatory levels and I'm considering becoming an expatriate in order to avoid it"? You might then explain where you you are thinking of moving or maybe ask if anyone knows how to avoid the fact that the US taxes its citizens' incomes no matter where they are earned (subject to a credit) and that your new domicile will tax you too. That would be a good post and would start a useful discussion.

But to start with a rant about how the ordinary guy can never, ever make it and that someday someone will take your hard earned dough and give it to some shiftless dirtbag who doesn't deserve it? That is not useful. Combine it with rhetorical devices often used to sell things and you can see why some might be suspicious that you are merely pointing out the horrendous problem in order to market your own special solution -- i.e. "leaving the Matrix."

I don't think anyone on this site is unaware of the problems you identify. I have predicted for years that our income taxes will rise, regardless of who is in Congress or the White House. So have many others. I, and others, have also predicted for years that social security eventually will be means tested. Most people here also expect increased inflation as a consequence of the Fed run wild. But you know what? We go ahead and plan for those eventualities as best we can.

A discussion of how best to address these threats in my own plans would be useful to me. A fist pounding, spittle flecked rant about the fact that they will occur -- not so much.

Gumby

 

[Gumby]

But it won't be just the "haves" paying. This is not a fixed-size pie. When property is taken from the "haves" to give to the "have nots," society gets poorer overall, and often even the "have nots" end up with less. Why does society get poorer?
-- Like anything else, when hard work, initiative, and risk taking (entrepreneurship/investing) is taxed, then there will be less of it.
-- On the whole (not true in each case) the "haves" got to be that way by making better decisions regarding allocation of resources and talent than the "have nots." Efficiently allocating resources is a key to growing societal wealth. If we take money from people who do it better (in general) and give to to people who do it less well (in general), we should expect less societal wealth--a smaller pie.

You do realize that the logical extension of your argument is to simply take all of a society's wealth and give it to the one person who can make the best decisions. Good if you are that one person. Not so good if you are anyone else.

 

[W2R]

You do realize that the logical extension of your argument is to simply take all of a society's wealth and give it to the one person who can make the best decisions. Good if you are that one person. Not so good if you are anyone else.

How convenient that that person is ME. So hand it over and make it snappy, y'all.