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Old 12-15-2010, 05:44 PM   #41
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I think the discount big box stores like Costco and Sams have about run their course. Dropped my Sams membership after 20 years or so. They have not asked me why.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:06 AM   #42
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The Michelen new-tires-on-the-rear video:



It's on their site, too: http://www.michelinman.com/tire-care...artire-change/

They have different bits at the end. The YouTube one shows a police chase-cam wreck with the voiceover about the fleeing car having had recent new tires put on the front instead of the rear. I'm trying to imagine how that came out in the police interrogation. It would make a good Law & Order segment I'm sure.

The one on the Michelin site has several slides and voice instructions that I completely ignored and therefore can't characterize.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:11 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
I think the discount big box stores like Costco and Sams have about run their course. Dropped my Sams membership after 20 years or so. They have not asked me why.
Probably hard to find your address after going into the witness protection program ...
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:26 AM   #44
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The Michelen new-tires-on-the-rear video:
Thanks for the video, it helps re-confirm my stand on this (for me, not for others under different driving conditions).

I had to check carefully, but they did say new tires on the front, half-worn on the rear. New tires are ~ 10 to 11/32 tread depth, ( link ). So that would be a delta of over 5/32", while my delta would be 3/32", and even less as time goes on and the front wears.

The amount of time I spend on the road in hydroplane conditions is minuscule, and I am super careful about it - I've felt a car start to hydroplane before and it is scary. I wouldn't hit a curve like that at 45mph in this vehicle, I just wouldn't. And I don't do high speed chases with police either. But I will spend time on snowy roads, where that front traction is critical.

I'll take it up with Costco next week, I'll have the car more available then to either get Costco to waive this, take it somewhere else if they'll do it, or DIY it (DIM - Do It Myself?).

-ERD50
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:27 AM   #45
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Thanks for the video, it helps re-confirm my stand on this (for me, not for others under different driving conditions).

I had to check carefully, but they did say new tires on the front, half-worn on the rear. New tires are ~ 10 to 11/32 tread depth, ( link ). So that would be a delta of over 5/32", while my delta would be 3/32", and even less as time goes on and the front wears.

The amount of time I spend on the road in hydroplane conditions is minuscule, and I am super careful about it - I've felt a car start to hydroplane before and it is scary. I wouldn't hit a curve like that at 45mph in this vehicle, I just wouldn't. And I don't do high speed chases with police either. But I will spend time on snowy roads, where that front traction is critical.

I'll take it up with Costco next week, I'll have the car more available then to either get Costco to waive this, take it somewhere else if they'll do it, or DIY it (DIM - Do It Myself?).

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Old 12-16-2010, 11:27 AM   #46
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You can't cure this!
+1

Way too funny.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:32 PM   #47
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The YouTube one shows a police chase-cam wreck with the voiceover about the fleeing car having had recent new tires put on the front instead of the rear. I'm trying to imagine how that came out in the police interrogation. It would make a good Law & Order segment I'm sure.
Just guessing here, but I'm betting that it came up in the whole dude-got-killed-running-from-the-pohleece investigation. Not that I'm a 100% certain of it from watching it on some grainy Youtube video, but that looked like it ought to have been a fatality to me.

So, here's my recollection of what I learned about hydroplaning from pursuit driving and intermediate accident investigator's schools that I took a long time ago:
  • Hydroplaning can start at lower speeds, but just about any tire on any car is going to start hydroplaning by around 50 MPH when it's raining.
  • When hydroplaning starts is based on a combination of factors: speed, tread depth, tire inflation and water depth. It might be influenced by other factors, but I think these are the big ones.
  • The more severe any one of the above four factors, the lower the speed at which hydroplaning starts.
  • The more severe any one of the above four factors and the greater the degree of hydroplaning occurs. A car traveling at 60 MPH, with good tread and good inflation will have a small percentage of tread no longer in contact. The same car, speed, but with poor tread could have almost no tire surface still in contact with the road.
If you double click on the video and go to Youtube, there is only one comment, but it's interesting and very on-topic:
Quote:
If anyone who shops at costco for tires please watch this video carefully and listen because everything in this video are facts not opinions. So please quit giving us a hard time about why the two new tires belong in the rear of the vehicle and watch the video. Thank You we at costco just try to follow all proper procedures and safety policies not to protect our jobs but to make sure that the member leaves safe at all times.
Considering that the vast majority of drivers have a very limited performance envelope, I guess if I was Costco et.al. I might be a bit worried about unleashing John Doe out into the world with less tread on the rear tires. We are a litigious people in this country (it's always someone else's fault) that I'm not sure a waiver would be enough to absolve them.
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:16 PM   #48
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You can't cure this!
heh-heh - At first I wasn't 100% sure if you were talking about curing the tire condition, or my condition. I'm pretty sure now. That's OK .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
So, here's my recollection of what I learned about hydroplaning from pursuit driving and intermediate accident investigator's schools that I took a long time ago:
...

If you double click on the video and go to Youtube, there is only one comment, but it's interesting and very on-topic:


Quote:
If anyone who shops at costco for tires please watch this video carefully and listen because everything in this video are facts not opinions. So please quit giving us a hard time about why the two new tires belong in the rear of the vehicle and watch the video. Thank You we at costco just try to follow all proper procedures and safety policies not to protect our jobs but to make sure that the member leaves safe at all times.
Thanks for all that background on hydroplaning. Makes sense.

I can also see Costco taking a stance from a 'we are a big national company and we need rules' stand. And I won't be surprised if they say NO, on that basis.

The problem I still have is that they should have this in writing (it's not even on their web site if you go looking for it) and make you aware of it when they tell you "free rotations". It would have pushed me to get them rotated sooner and avoided this hassle (though I'd still prefer to have 3/32" more tread on the front going into winter than the other way round). I think this is what is getting people PO'd - it comes out after the fact.

And I am still sticking to my personal decision (even if I have to DIY it) to get these rotated. Yes, the video and all this info make sense - for hydroplaning. And I will be super careful in those conditions. But in snow, when you are trying to get started from a stop sign on an incline, you aren't having issues with the rear end swinging on a FWD. You just need traction. Same with stopping down an incline, FW are doing the braking. Once I get going under those conditions, I am also be super careful so that I'm not going so fast that the rear end would be swinging out anyway. Yes, people pass me and I let them.

edit/add: Let me throw this in for additional clarity - if this was late winter/spring, I'd do exactly as Costco is advising, as rain is more likely than snow at that point. That would leave me with the most tread on the back by the end of Fall, so I'd be able to maximize my tread depth on the Front for Winter! Just what I need!

-ERD50
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:09 PM   #49
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So, are you sorry you procrastinated on getting your tires rotated now?
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:33 PM   #50
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So, are you sorry you procrastinated on getting your tires rotated now?
Yes from the hassle factor. No from my stance of having deeper tread in front for winter.

And it wasn't exactly procrastination (although I excel at that). We were considering replacing the van last year, so I just didn't bother following a schedule at the time. And this tread delta really isn't that great (3/32"). It's not like I went way over-due on it (again, Costco stops at 2/32" these are 3/32"). Once we didn't sell or give it away, i should have - and that's what I'm trying to do now.

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Old 12-19-2010, 05:52 PM   #51
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ERD50

I'm late to the party.

Quick solution. It will take like 20 mins. Take it back to Costco. Tell him they mismeasured.

BURN OUT!!!!!
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:11 PM   #52
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Les Schwab walks on water in the Pacific NW.
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:49 PM   #53
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FWIW... the last time the Volvo dealer rotated the tires, I think they put the newer ones with better tread on the front. I had previously replaced the back tires (flat on one, metal on the other, oh joy). I can't swear to this, it was a year ago. I'll try to remember to ask when I get it serviced soon.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:16 AM   #54
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Les Schwab walks on water in the Pacific NW.

Not for me. I own a business with a good amouint of rolling stock. 8 trucks right now, as many as 17 a few years ago. I started splitting our flat business to see if they would be better than our present vendor (Tire Factory). I told Les Schwaab I was giving them a tryout.

After a couple months the manager says I need to have your tire business or we won't do your flat work. I said goodbye. About once a year their on road flat guys come knockin on our door to pick up our tire work. I relay that scenario. they slink away.

i hate pressure in sales.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:34 AM   #55
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Not for me. I own a business with a good amouint of rolling stock. 8 trucks right now, as many as 17 a few years ago. I started splitting our flat business to see if they would be better than our present vendor (Tire Factory). I told Les Schwaab I was giving them a tryout.

After a couple months the manager says I need to have your tire business or we won't do your flat work. I said goodbye. About once a year their on road flat guys come knockin on our door to pick up our tire work. I relay that scenario. they slink away.

i hate pressure in sales.
Fair enough, but does your current vendor give you a freezer full of beef like Les?
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:19 PM   #56
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Les Schwab's commercial team changes the tires on the boatyard's rolling crane, the are the same size that a 747 uses. No complaints.
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:47 PM   #57
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Do the two new tires go on the front or back of the crane? 747?
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:59 PM   #58
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Fair enough, but does your current vendor give you a freezer full of beef like Les?
So that is where the cows that have been disappearing from the family ranch have been going.
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:06 PM   #59
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Do the two new tires go on the front or back of the crane? 747?
Because neither breaking or acceleration is an issue a new tire goes where the problem tire is removed.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:05 AM   #60
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While I understand the position of COSTCO, fully designed by lawyers and not much else, I get really irritated that they don't allow the customer make their own decisions. Enough that I don't buy tires there although I did buy 4 new tires for older son once.
I have driven motorcycles, some heavy trucks (drove a dump truck working construction in college),FWD, RWD, 2WD, 4WD and AWD cars with open diffs, limited slips, locking diffs, ABS and ESP (electronic stability system). A couple years ago I went 1K miles off road in my Jeep. I know that 4WD means you can go and not that you can stop. I have 'severely' under and over inflated tires to get traction in specific circumstances. I understand the limited area of concern that COSTCO has. In FWD the front wheels drive, turn and do most of the stopping; the primary purpose of the rear tires is to just keep the car straight, not contributing much to stopping effort. (Anybody remember empty pickup trucks before ABS and no load, don't care which tires had the most thread there was a good chance of the rear end getting ahead of the front end.) Now ABS has solved a lot of the concern COSTCO should have and I even have ESP on my Jeep. Now the COSTCO position has a small validity about stopping in some limited circumstances, especially where someone doesn't know what they are doing, including going too fast. But they provide no help to the fellow stuck in snow in his driveway or in some mud where good thread on the drive wheels is what is needed to get going. So they are worried about whether you can stop but not whether you can go.
I buy my tires from a speciality supply tailored to my needs, like extra layers of sidewall for off roading or towing, performance tires for DWs Miata and really strange tires for the 1985 VW camper. I simply will not buy @COSTCO. If they had a tire I want at a good price I expect my tire guy to match it as he already does for Tire Rack tires. If somehow I ended up with COSTCO tires I would rotate them myself as I see fit. While I really like COSTCO for most things I don't even bother to visit their tire dept. Folks there just read the book, have no knowledge or judgement and don't allow their customers to have any either.
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