Death With Dignity Laws Should Be Enacted In All States

[MichaelB]

Midpack, condolences for the loss of your father.

 

[braumeister]

Sorry for your loss.
It's apparently pretty common. My dad had a well documented advance directive that was repeatedly ignored by arrogant doctors, even when both he and I confronted them face to face. "My job is to do everything I can to keep him alive, and I don't care about your piece of paper".

OTOH, my mom's wishes were followed and she had a better time of it, thanks to a compassionate doctor.

So it all seems to come down to the medical care provider to do the right thing (or not).

 

[Midpack]

Sorry for your loss.
It's apparently pretty common. My dad had a well documented advance directive that was repeatedly ignored by arrogant doctors, even when both he and I confronted them face to face. "My job is to do everything I can to keep him alive, and I don't care about your piece of paper".

OTOH, my mom's wishes were followed and she had a better time of it, thanks to a compassionate doctor.

So it all seems to come down to the medical care provider to do the right thing (or not).

I would only add that we never realized there would be so many organizations involved (GP, EMT's, ER, hospital, AL, SNF, hospice) multiplied by all their personal (some rotating through, who saw my Dad once) made it overwhelming for sister (mostly) to manage. We never realized the chaos we/she encountered over the past 3 months.

To those of you who think having an attorney prepared advanced health care directive, MPOA, etc. documented and communicated to all family members will ensure your wishes will be honored - you may be surprised, at a time when you're least able to speak for yourself. Our Dad went through almost 3 months of suffering that he had long sought to avoid, and for the most part we couldn't stop it.

 

[ERD50]

Very sorry for your loss, and mostly that the situation was made more difficult than it had to be.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, I've been avoiding reviewing the paperwork I had done for us about 20 years ago, maybe this will be the kick I need to review/update it.

-ERD50

 

[Midpack]

Very sorry for your loss, and mostly that the situation was made more difficult than it had to be.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, I've been avoiding reviewing the paperwork I had done for us about 20 years ago, maybe this will be the kick I need to review/update it.

-ERD50

You and me both, thanks to all. And I'm becoming involved in DWD legislation in my state(s) through https://www.deathwithdignity.org/

 

[folivier]

While I'm sensitive to you and others situations I will have to be the outlier here. While I do agree with withholding medical care at a patient or families request (when the patient is not able to make that informed decision) the act of assisted suicide or whatever term you decide to call it goes against how I've tried to live my life. Whether you call it religion or love of life I feel it is wrong for someone to take their life.
Again I'm not against withholding medical care or even sustenance in the case of someone who is at the end of their life. But the problem becomes how to write legislation that will protect everyone.

 

[HFWR]

”My job is to do everything I can to keep him alive, and I don't care about your piece of paper".

At which point the doctor would need a doctor...

 

[Midpack]

While I'm sensitive to you and others situations I will have to be the outlier here. While I do agree with withholding medical care at a patient or families request (when the patient is not able to make that informed decision) the act of assisted suicide or whatever term you decide to call it goes against how I've tried to live my life. Whether you call it religion or love of life I feel it is wrong for someone to take their life.
Again I'm not against withholding medical care or even sustenance in the case of someone who is at the end of their life. But the problem becomes how to write legislation that will protect everyone.

I have no problem with those who would NOT choose DWD for themselves, but I don't understand why they should be allowed to speak for everyone else.

It's not easy, but 5-6 states and several countries have enacted DWD laws. I'm not sure why your beliefs should govern the decisions for others, and no one is suggesting a law that would encourage anyone to act against their own beliefs. While the absence of DWD laws does prevent someone from being coerced into assisted suicide (what you're concerned about I gather), it's at the expense of terminal citizens who don't have the right to voluntarily end their years with dignity as they see fit. It's not as if there aren't downsides to either. It's not as if outlawing DWD doesn't have a downside as well.

 

[MRG]

I'm very sorry for your loss. Your DF shouldn't have had to suffer like that.

I'm for DWD. Actually I believe we do depressed people a great disservice in our country. The typical effect of trying to explain how depressed one is often results in involuntary committment. Or people disguise their symptoms. Seen it too many times, lost too many friends who no one knew were very, very ill.

 

[pb4uski]

....My dad had a well documented advance directive that was repeatedly ignored by arrogant doctors, even when both he and I confronted them face to face. "My job is to do everything I can to keep him alive, and I don't care about your piece of paper". ..

At which point the doctor would need a doctor...

Perhaps some of these doctors like the one that braumeister encounteres need a refresher course in "Do no harm"... in the real world do no harm might sometimes mean doing nothing to prolong life and just assertive pain management.

Midpack... sorry for your loss and what your Dad, you and your family had to go through.. it isn't right.

 

[Scrapr]

Midpack...I'm glad your Dad did not have to suffer longer. My great condolences

perhaps when you & your sister are ready a formal complaint with the care team would help another family

 

[TwoByFour]

A good friend of ours was a staff doctor at a local hospital, a teaching hospital attached to the University. She was a professor there. She had polio and her directives for end of life care were very clear and well known to the hospital, after all she worked there and was well known. The polio finally got to her, she was hospitalized and coded. Her husband came into her room and the staff was beating on her chest, giving CPR. He went ballistic, had to pull everyone off of his wife. She died, which is what she wanted to happen in this situation.

Bottom line - advanced care directives are worthless unless a family member is there. Everyone ignores them.

 

[CaptTom]

Bottom line - advanced care directives are worthless unless a family member is there. Everyone ignores them.

When my mother was receiving in-home hospice care, they made very sure that the whole family knew NOT to call 911 if anything happened to her.

The fear was, the EMT's and doctors would ignore the DNR and any other directive, and do everything they could to prolong her life. Instead, we were to call hospice, and they'd send over a nurse to do what they could to make her comfortable.

As it turned out she passed in her sleep, so we didn't have to deal with that problem.

 

[ncbill]

A good friend of ours was a staff doctor at a local hospital, a teaching hospital attached to the University. She was a professor there. She had polio and her directives for end of life care were very clear and well known to the hospital, after all she worked there and was well known. The polio finally got to her, she was hospitalized and coded. Her husband came into her room and the staff was beating on her chest, giving CPR. He went ballistic, had to pull everyone off of his wife. She died, which is what she wanted to happen in this situation.

Bottom line - advanced care directives are worthless unless a family member is there. Everyone ignores them.

Going to the hospital for someone already enrolled in Hospice...is often problematic. As your friend found out, all sorts of things can go wrong.

We did have some confusion (a tiny fraction of what the OP experienced) between the facility doctor & Hospice while my loved one was in a nursing home, but we then moved them over to assisted living near me (5 minutes away) & are using Hospice as their "doctor."

We are also very fortunate in that the Hospice we're now using has an inpatient residential facility.

Mostly for respite care for those who have their loved one at home, but also for those loved ones nearing death whose symptoms cannot be controlled in an outpatient facility.

Condolences to the OP on their loss...I'm so sorry for what they had to go through.

 

[braumeister]

advanced care directives are worthless unless a family member is there. Everyone ignores them.

As I said earlier, it all depends.

My mom had her advance directive filed with the local hospital and all her doctors.

When the staff at the memory care facility where she lived found her unresponsive, they called 911out of habit. I got a call from them at the same time, and rushed to the ER. I found the doctor in charge of the ER and identified myself. The first thing he said to me was "I see that she has a DNR on file, so we'll just make sure she's comfortable unless you want us to do more." I could have hugged him.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

When my mother was receiving in-home hospice care, they made very sure that the whole family knew NOT to call 911 if anything happened to her.

The fear was, the EMT's and doctors would ignore the DNR and any other directive, and do everything they could to prolong her life. Instead, we were to call hospice, and they'd send over a nurse to do what they could to make her comfortable.

As it turned out she passed in her sleep, so we didn't have to deal with that problem.

It's not a fear; in many states, if the EMTs arrive they are REQUIRED to administer CPR and take any other life saving procedures. THAT is why in home hospice providers tell providers to NOT call 911. While Dad was in hospice, I only had to call them once (while still alive) to get some meds expedited. When he did finally pass, I called them and they asked how long we would like before they came over and called the funeral home. It was a very peaceful way to say goodbye to Dad...no emergency personnel or chaos.

Midpack, I am sorry for your loss, but I am glad the suffering finally came to an end.

 

[lhamo]

I'm also very sorry for your loss, Midpack, and for the needless suffering your dad and your family had to endure.

Here in Washington, which is a Death With Dignity state, we were advised to have mom fill out a POLST (Physicians Orders for Life Sustaining Treatment) to supplement her advanced directive. The POLST puts the wishes of the patient into specific medical language that makes it easier for caregivers to comply without worrying about lawsuits after the fact. Mom's was bright green, and we all had copies of it in addition to the one that hung on her fridge. Emergency staff in Seattle know to look there for it, especially in care facilities (facility management also knew she had one and had a copy in her file).


Here is a link to the organization promoting this tool -- strongly recommend everyone look into whether or not it is being used in your state, and follow up appropriately:

POLST – Honoring the wishes of those with serious illness and frailty.

 

[bmcgonig]

A good friend of ours was a staff doctor at a local hospital, a teaching hospital attached to the University. She was a professor there. She had polio and her directives for end of life care were very clear and well known to the hospital, after all she worked there and was well known. The polio finally got to her, she was hospitalized and coded. Her husband came into her room and the staff was beating on her chest, giving CPR. He went ballistic, had to pull everyone off of his wife. She died, which is what she wanted to happen in this situation.

Bottom line - advanced care directives are worthless unless a family member is there. Everyone ignores them.

Exact same thing happened a friend of mine whose wife was dying in the hospital. We were in the room when she coded. Everyone rushed in to save her, and he had to get between them and his wife and shout that she had a DNR. Absolutely disgusting to watch..

 

[Huston55]

MidPack-

Very sorry for your loss, and for the difficult last few months. You’ve convinced me to reevaluate our POAs/MPOAs. I think I’ll also talk to my DS (nurse) to see what she has seen & recommends.

 

[kaudrey]

Midpack - I am so sorry for your loss, but glad your father is no longer suffering. My thoughts are with your family.


I agree with you regarding death with dignity; my parents live in NH and have living wills and DNR documents. At 80, my mother is not in the best of health and dealing with the early stages of Alzheimer's. I fear my 80-year old father will have to deal with these issues at some point, and although my sister and I will help as much as possible, we don't live close enough to be there every day...

 

[HI Bill]

He is in hospice now, in a skilled nursing facility. But the hospice folks and the SNF haven’t been on the same page, they just made a colossal week long mistake so bad my Dad was crying because of the pain one morning despite morphine. The medical professionals have done some good things and they have good intentions, but they aren’t coordinating with each other - my sister has caught lots of mistakes, some were avoided but some were after the fact. This morning another new nurse appeared who didn’t know anything about my Dad, my sister had to intervene - and he and Medicare/Tricare are paying $ for this? My Dad will pass away, helpless, after weeks in pain. Why?

Again, I’m not at all cavalier about death with dignity laws, but there’s no good reason I can think of to put my Dad through this - he is begging for it to end.

After my mom's passing in February, you story is heartbreaking. After my mom ended up in the hospital twice within one week, we started hopsice care. She went back to the memory care unit, where the hospice care was carried out consistently. Her end was mercifully swift, and largely painless, also after she stopped eating and drinking, largely. So sorry for the pain and for your loss.

 

[indymom]

Before getting too enthusiastic about the helpfulness of euthanasia, look at what has happened in other countries, particularly Holland.

I entirely agree that people at the end of life are often mistreated, prolonging life to make money on tests or killing them to save money. Money being the motivating factor. So is getting rid of Grandma to get an inheritance. Death with dignity should mean dying with care and discretion. Giving someone pain relief even if it hastens death is one thing; deliberately killing them off is another. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[HI Bill]

Before getting too enthusiastic about the helpfulness of euthanasia, look at what has happened in other countries, particularly Holland.

What has happend in Holland? I've been searching the news, and could not find to what you are referring.

 

[indymom]

What has happend in Holland? I've been searching the news, and could not find to what you are referring.

Holland | Patients Rights Council
Among other things:

'A recent Dutch television documentary on euthanasia in which a 68 year-old woman suffering from semantic dementia was given a lethal injection may well herald a turning point in what many consider to be an increasingly broader — and unacceptable — interpretation of the rules."

 

[Midpack]

Before getting too enthusiastic about the helpfulness of euthanasia, look at what has happened in other countries, particularly Holland.

I entirely agree that people at the end of life are often mistreated, prolonging life to make money on tests or killing them to save money. Money being the motivating factor. So is getting rid of Grandma to get an inheritance. Death with dignity should mean dying with care and discretion. Giving someone pain relief even if it hastens death is one thing; deliberately killing them off is another. Be careful what you wish for.

We’ve said from the outset there are risks and undesirable outcomes possible with DWD if not carefully regulated, legally and practically. Family members coercing aged parents. Acting because the elderly patient can’t afford continued end of life expenses. Elderly patients who are unable to make decisions for themselves. None of these were the factors in my Dad’s case.

On the other hand, the status quo has undesirable outcomes every bit as serious, maybe even more common? Elderly patients who are in considerable pain for days, weeks, months, years. Sadly some resort to suicide. Health care professionals extending life to generate more revenue (I am NOT saying that’s common, but it may happen). Elderly terminal patients with no quality of life who would rather see their estate passed on to family and/or charity instead of medical costs that are just delaying the inevitable. After months of pain, begging doctors and nurses to let him go and losing almost 30 pounds, my Dad had to completely refuse food and water and take morphine every 2 hours to end his pain.

“Careful what you wish for” applies to the status quo as well in my view.

And DWD laws would only be an option, not a recommendation for any other family.

Some of the Holland headlines were hard to assess. X% of deaths due to euthanasia? How many of those were terminal otherwise, who simply didn’t have euthanasia as an option before? Euthanasia isn’t a cause of death for a terminal patient, it’s a choice.