Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-26-2011, 05:11 PM   #21
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
No, I'm not. I've gone to some pains to show that the issue I raised was not one of grammar. Having studied grammar for so long, I probably have got a pretty good idea of what it is not.
My comment was more general, not only this thread. Sorry if that caused any confusion.
__________________

__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-26-2011, 05:18 PM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
No, I'm not. I've gone to some pains to show that the issue I raised was not one of grammar. Having studied grammar for so long, I probably have got a pretty good idea of what it is not.
changed to: I probably have got a pretty good idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
There Gregster, fixed it fer ya! Ya don't need ta "got" a pretty good idea, just have it.
OK, I'm curious about this, so learn me sumpin'.

I often find the "got" and "gotten" to be awkward and superfluous, and will edit it out (though I'd probably 'speak' it). I'd guess both GregLee's and youbet's versions are correct, but I think it reads better w/o the "got".

Any good guides for this?


-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2011, 05:31 PM   #23
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
changed to: I probably have got a pretty good idea



OK, I'm curious about this, so learn me sumpin'.

I often find the "got" and "gotten" to be awkward and superfluous, and will edit it out (though I'd probably 'speak' it). I'd guess both GregLee's and youbet's versions are correct, but I think it reads better w/o the "got".

Any good guides for this?


-ERD50
Pray tell, if not Greg Lee, who?
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2011, 05:34 PM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ls99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,792
Eh, I never got far enough in the study of pure logic to learn about modus ponens, some familiarity with ignoratio elenchi and a few others. I think they referred to errors in argument.

IIRC I bailed out at categorical syllogisms. Something about two premisses, a major followed by a minor then the conclusion. Made my head hurt diagramming it. ? EIO.

I think I'll stick with techie stuff with bad English grammar.

Now time for my large bag of popcorn and case of beer. Oh and lawnchair.
__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
ls99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2011, 05:51 PM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GregLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I often find the "got" and "gotten" to be awkward and superfluous, and will edit it out (though I'd probably 'speak' it). I'd guess both GregLee's and youbet's versions are correct, but I think it reads better w/o the "got".

Any good guides for this?
I hear both, and so, as an issue of descriptive grammar, there is nothing further to be said about contemporary English. Both occur. I googled ""have got" versus have" and an article from "grammar girl" came up, http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/have-got-grammar.aspx, which seems to me to be a reasonable discussion. "Have" alone strikes me as being probably more usual in formal speech, probably because it is the older construction.
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
GregLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 05:25 AM   #26
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
obgyn65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: midwestern city
Posts: 4,061
Please remember that some members - imcluding me - are not English native speakers. I do not expect other posters to correct mistakes but don't mind if they do. Some of these mistakes are just typos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
It's just that it gets pretty tedious when posters continually correct grammar and spelling of other members.
__________________
Very conservative with investments. Not ER'd yet, 48 years old. Please do not take anything I write or imply as legal, financial or medical advice directed to you. Contact your own financial advisor, healthcare provider, or attorney for financial, medical and legal advice.
obgyn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 10:38 AM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
This is an online blog. The grammar police should move along, nothing to see here, folks.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 10:43 AM   #28
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Logic (not philosophy). A premise can be converted into an "if" antecedent by the logical rule of implication introduction, or an antecedent into a premise, by the logical rule of modus ponens. So there's a relationship. But they're not the same, because statements (where antecedents are) are not logically like arguments (where premises are). You can attack an argument by showing that its premise is false, but you can't appropriately attack an implication statement by showing that its antecedent is false. This is why I disagreed with the contention that the article under discussion had a false premise.
The reason I said Philosophy (Logic) is that college level Logic courses are frequently taught under the auspices of the Philosophy department, with some math dept overlap, unless we are talking about computer logic. Probably also some that hit on the linguistics area.
__________________
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 11:03 AM   #29
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GregLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
"Have" alone strikes me as being probably more usual in formal speech, probably because it is the older construction.
I haven't been able to find out whether "have got" is actually a more recent construction than "have" alone to express possession, but I did find a study with evidence that "have" alone is much more common in the speech of young children than it is in the speech of their parents, and that children don't even learn the "have got" variant until they're around two: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9cf1O6E_DmcJ:micro5.mscc.huji.a c.il/~msninio/Slow-mapping-have-srcd01.DOC+%22have+got%22+%22earliest+use%22&hl=en &gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjzX320fMLoqaE-0IHYxaIqZuW8encD_X_K3RoqyKPWOfujVLPG1eaYfgS_yRaCSe dX9tWiZIeWuV0vfM9qB4iL_UfaIGEUGLf5J35JH5L9WqfDqJdU wulIVR50XBUd7qgcET1Q&sig=AHIEtbQIygXoY8QhbX5Tgi5U1 LOYPCts2Q.

I would take that as suggesting that "have got" might be lost from English in the future.
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
GregLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 11:13 AM   #30
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GregLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW_M5 View Post
The reason I said Philosophy (Logic) is that college level Logic courses are frequently taught under the auspices of the Philosophy department, ...
Yes, but philosophers just consider logic to be a desirable skill for future philosophers to learn, I believe, at least for elementary logic. The higher logic, starting from the Incompleteness Theorem, might taken to be part of philosophy.
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
GregLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #31
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I would take that as suggesting that "have got" might be lost from English in the future.
I am thinking that maybe "have obtained" or "have acquired" would work in some sentence structures.

To me, "have" seems different from "have got". I could be wrong but my sense of it is that "have got" implies the transfer of whateveritis and "have" does not. If you have something, you could have had it from birth. But if you have got something, perhaps it implies that you didn't have it and then you got it.

But maybe I'm wrong. I wonder if someone would say, "I have got ten toes". In this sentence I would probably use "have" instead of "have got", but maybe others would use "have got".
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 11:58 AM   #32
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GregLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by W2R View Post
But if you have got something, perhaps it implies that you didn't have it and then you got it.
I don't think so; that would be "have gotten". Compare "I have gotten 10 toes."
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
GregLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 12:01 PM   #33
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I don't think so; that would be "have gotten". Compare "I have gotten 5 toes."
You're right - - that makes sense to me. We would say, "I have gotten 5 ears of corn from the garden", not "I have got 5 ears of corn from the garden", when trying to express that we have just gone out and picked the corn. And "I have gotten 5 toes" sounds a little grisly.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 12:01 PM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,533
This COLA has no fizz? OR This COLA has gotten no fizz?
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 12:04 PM   #35
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
This COLA has no fizz? OR This COLA has gotten no fizz?
This COLA does not fizz?
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 12:08 PM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by W2R View Post
This COLA does not fizz?
Ask not for whom the COLA fizzes, it fizzes for thee.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 12:10 PM   #37
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
Ask not for whom the COLA fizzes, it fizzes for thee.
That it does, that it does....
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 12:10 PM   #38
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
bbbamI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dallas 'burb
Posts: 9,039
"The ill gotten booty-or ill booten gotty" Hawkeye Pierce-MASH
__________________
There's no need to complicate, our time is short..
bbbamI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 12:47 PM   #39
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GregLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
This COLA has no fizz? OR This COLA has gotten no fizz?
This economy has gotten fizz from the prospect of the COLA, so it has got some fizz, now.

The passives are all relatively bad, but some are worse than others: some fizz has been gotten, some fizz has been got, some fizz has been had. One idea about passives is that they are increasingly possible as the passive subject receives the action of the verb to a greater extent (or, the verb is transitive to a greater degree).
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
GregLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2011, 01:04 PM   #40
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,201
The kind of logic errors that bug me are these kind.
The price of food has gotten too expensive.
More Americans watch NBC News than any other news organization in the world

The reason we do it is because we enjoy it.

__________________

__________________
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:16 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.