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Old 08-29-2009, 02:45 PM   #61
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No kidding. I can't imagine not being able to vote!

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Old 08-29-2009, 08:06 PM   #62
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My intent in starting this thread was simply to acknowledge that women were given the right to vote 89 years ago. Nothing more, nothing less. I also wanted to share the story of my Great Grandmother who participated in the suffragette movement so long ago in the great state of Kansas.
Your point is well taken. However, the title of the thread is "Happy Women's Equality Day!". True, August 26 was declared Women's Equality Day by Bella Abzug and the US Congress in 1971 (February 30 was set aside for Men's Equality Day). However, there is little correlation between gender equality and the suffragette movement / 19th Amendment, which is why I responded to the thread. To acknowledge and/or celebrate a historical event is one thing. But for congress to equate this with "women's equality" as they did in 1971, at a time when 55,000 American men were being sent off to die in Vietnam, seems quite hypocritical. Half of these men were drafted, many out of high school. This is even more ironic considering very few of these men had the opportunity to vote. The 26th Amendment that lowered the voting age to 18 wasn't passed until mid 1971. While I was too young for the draft, my oldest brother was not. I remember watching the draft lottery on our big B&W TV. My brother seemed to know the birthdays of every one of his 300 male classmates. Every time a birthday came up, my brother would say, "that birthday belongs to so-and-so."
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:08 PM   #63
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My mother was born in 1914, so she would have been in the first group who grew up expecting to vote.

My grandmothers would have been in their 40's when they got the vote. (best guess, not checking dates)

I have NO patience for people who say,"Why vote, it makes no difference, politicians are all bad, whine, snivel, etc..."

Hey, real people died so I can vote!

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Old 08-29-2009, 08:11 PM   #64
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Shawn, write your congresscritters.

I have no say on armed forces policy.

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Old 08-29-2009, 08:16 PM   #65
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My best friend in high school went into the army the day she graduated from college in 1972. She would have applied at West Point, where her brother went, but women weren't allowed in until 1976. There's your equality for you.
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:18 PM   #66
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My best friend in high school went into the army the day she graduated from college in 1972. She would have applied at West Point but women weren't allowed in until 1976. There's your equality for you, Shawn.
Was she able to go fill a combat role? I really wish it was equal across the board. However, I have a younger infantryman relative. Has no desire to have a woman by his side. Guess things cant really be equal can they?
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:25 PM   #67
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Notmuchlonger, go check the NYTimes - there were interesting articles recently about women in Iraq in combat roles - basically an over-stretched Army is doing creative paper-work workarounds on the definition of "combat role"

( "Was she able to fill a combat role" - er, it was, and still is against the law! Go write your congresscritters. )

The officers quoted seemed to have no problems with their female troops.

There are women offices leading men, but they can't have women under them. Very weird...

(I can remember the doom and gloom, the horror, the horror! from many quarters when the service academies started to take young women. I still look up and see the sky in its normal location. )

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Old 08-29-2009, 08:25 PM   #68
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I think back then only female nurses were on the front line (but not considered "combat"). My friend went into military intelligence.
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:43 PM   #69
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Notmuchlonger, go check the NYTimes - there were interesting articles recently about women in Iraq in combat roles - basically an over-stretched Army is doing creative paper-work workarounds on the definition of "combat role"

( "Was she able to fill a combat role" - er, it was, and still is against the law! Go write your congresscritters. )

The officers quoted seemed to have no problems with their female troops.

There are women offices leading men, but they can't have women under them. Very weird...

(I can remember the doom and gloom, the horror, the horror! from many quarters when the service academies started to take young women. I still look up and see the sky in its normal location. )

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I dont need to check the NYTimes. I can speak to a NCO who was in Iraq during the war. As far as I am concerned as a civilian. If you can bleed you should be right up on the front lines. However, speak to a grunt they might feel differently.
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:28 PM   #70
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Shawn, write your congresscritters.

I have no say on armed forces policy.
I frequently write my congress critters. All three of them are women. When I write about gender issues, and the discrimination men face in society, I frequently receive form letters back stating how they are champions of women's rights. Either they have warped senses of humor, or they are so closed-minded that haven't even considered that men might have issues of concern (i.e., they have no men-specific form letters).
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:34 PM   #71
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Shawn, why the beefing against women? Your posts are pretty consistently against them. Something happen?
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:41 PM   #72
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The officers quoted seemed to have no problems with their female troops.
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Well, they didn't just hatch so if they are not bent on career destruction what else would they say?

Ha
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Old 08-29-2009, 10:48 PM   #73
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Shawn, why the beefing against women? Your posts are pretty consistently against them. Something happen?
FWIW, I'm not seeing the 'beefing against women' in Shawn's posts. I see some well stated, albeit controversial and non-PC, observations about the disparate treatment of men and women.
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Old 08-30-2009, 10:55 AM   #74
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There are some things Shawn says that I agree with and some I do not. For example, I believe that both men and women should register for selective service if we are going to have a registration. And I think children are being brought up to think of stranger adults, especially men, as dangerous when most all adults can be trusted. We shouldn't be treating men as a bunch of scary pedophiles.

But as to his comment on domestic violence equally involving violence against men by women as against women by men, this doesn't impress me as much, even if it is true. As a group, men are bigger and stronger and do more damage when they beat up women. If my spouse had chosen to beat me up there is no way I could have defended myself without a weapon. How many men end up hospitalized or severely hurt as a result of being beat up by their spouse as compared to women?

There are some issues which are difficult. The 16 year old girl (Shawn omitted her age) who had sex with the 12 year old boy and got pregnant and later was awarded child support, is a very difficult issue. The best interests of the child needs to govern. In my mind the best result would have been for the child to be adopted out by strangers. But we as a society get legitimately squeamish about too much governmental interference in parent/child relationships. We do not tend to take a child away before actual harm occurs. I can appreciate the fear that males might have that they become inadvertent or unwilling parents, but the child's interests must govern. And females have issues to. They are the ones that become pregnant. And it is very difficult in our society for a female to have a child and then say she does not want to raise it. So lots of tough issues for both sides and lots of pressures on both sides. To say the males have responsibilities and females have rights doesn't do it for me. We all have rights and responsibilities, some by law and some by societal pressure and tradition.

I also do not like to see the criminal system used to turn young men or women into "rapists" because they have sex with someone underage if they themselves are relatively close in age to the underage person.

As to equal pay for equal work, of course there should be.
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Old 08-30-2009, 11:20 AM   #75
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And I think children are being brought up to think of stranger adults, especially men, as dangerous when most all adults can be trusted. We shouldn't be treating men as a bunch of scary pedophiles.
When I was a kid back in the 1950's, school and parents taught me, "NEVER speak to strangers! If a stranger speaks to you, do not answer them - - scream and run away." There was no gender issue there since strangers can be of either gender.

The first time a stranger approached me, I was 11 and walking down the street. A convertible with two guys in it started driving slowly beside me, matching my walking speed. One of the guys said, "Hey, beautiful, want a ride?" Guess they were near-sighted since I was just 11. I ran away.
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Old 08-30-2009, 07:56 PM   #76
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How many men end up hospitalized or severely hurt as a result of being beat up by their spouse as compared to women?
Probably multiples of the men who self-report as such. How many men want to live up to the fact that they were hospitalized by their female sparring partner?

As for Shawn harshing on women, come off it. The guy makes a case for the poor treatment of men with zero attention to it by wider society. Who is getting laid off in this recession? Who works the dangerous and filthy jobs in this country? Who gets stuck in the front lines? Which gender now makes up a minority of college kids? And as for what happens if a man tries to help be an equal partner in bringing up his kids, lets just say you don't exactly get a friendly reception from the other (overwhelmingly female) involved parents.
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Old 08-30-2009, 08:08 PM   #77
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I'm just really happy that women put up a fight for us to have the right to vote, own property, get a decent paying job, and have the right to choose to have children or not.

These are things that are too easy to take for granted and I'm glad to support Women's Equality day to remind me of the way life was before my time.

I am sure that many of you men feel the same way about your wives and are grateful that they are no longer disenfranchised in this way.
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Old 08-30-2009, 08:13 PM   #78
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I just watched the movie "The Duchess" last night. Great movie, but what an eye opener that was.
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Old 08-30-2009, 09:15 PM   #79
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Who is getting laid off in this recession?
My sister in law got laid off.
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Old 08-30-2009, 09:23 PM   #80
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Who is getting laid off in this recession?
More men than women because of the industries suffering in the recession. But the women make less money and are less likely to have a full time job with health insurance. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/business/06women.html
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