Hybrid Lust: 2007 Camry

[BigMoneyJim]

My sister and BIL bought a new Prius a few weeks ago. (Paid sticker price; some places were adding several thousand $$$ "market adjustment".) Sister and I drove to NM in it. I like it, but it's a bit small for me for everyday driving. The hybrid Highlander is also not as roomy as I'd expect for the driver and way too expensive. But now they have the Camry hybrid...

After they bought the Prius I read up on how the various hybrids are designed. I really like the Toyota system, and I think it will also greatly reduce engine wear. I like the continually variable transmission concept and how they've implemented it in the Toyota system; it drove quite well. One of my bigger concerns with hybrids was air conditioning, but that wasn't a problem in the Prius in 90 and 100 degree weather. (It has an electric compressor so it doesn't need to have the gas motor running.) I now feel comfortable with the longevity of the hybrid components, too.

I periodically will lust after something to buy for a week or two and then drop it, but my hybrid Camry lust has been steady for about a month now. I know I'll need a car within the next year or two, and my car is starting to send signals that it may be sooner rather than later. I had already been all over the place with what I want next: everything from a decent used Accord/Camry to a new Murano, or possibly some SUV or...yeah, all over the place. Hybrid Camry with a sunroof is what I'm thinking now, but unfortunately that means brand new.

Anyway, I thought I'd post about my lust and see how many call me crazy. And I'm wondering if anyone else has looked at these and if they know if they're selling for over sticker like the Priuses did for a while.

BTW the 2007 Camrys look like Lexuses.

 

[LOL!]

We are car shopping (test drove a RAV4 today). We would not buy a hybrid because the gas mileage most, if not all, of the hybrids can be achieved with a gas-only or diesel car. Why pay extra for something that doesn't give you extra?

Let me be the first to say, "You are crazy."

An article in today's NYTimes on the Ford escape hybrid. Apparently these hybrids sat on lots so much, their batteries went dead.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/automobiles/autosreviews/30BLOCK.html

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Got me an 06 Prius. I get 55-60 mpg on my commute; it's perfect for the car down here -- hot, mixed highway and city, flat terrain. The acceleration is adequate at best. Everything else is just right for me for this type of use.

BTW, the Prius is now considered a mid-size car as of 06. Surprising amount of space, esp with the hatchback and drop-down rear seats.

Services every 5000, basically oil changes and a look-see, cheap. Comes with a $3400 tax credit to boot, but I think that is now scaled down based on number of units sold per year.

It the Camry hybrid were available when I bought the Prius, my decision would be very price-dependent. Don't need more room, love the mileage and tax credit, and I usually avoid 1st year releases of newly implemented technology, though the latter hasn't been a big deal with Toyota.

 

[Danny]

We are car shopping (test drove a RAV4 today). We would not buy a hybrid because the gas mileage most, if not all, of the hybrids can be achieved with a gas-only or diesel car. Why pay extra for something that doesn't give you extra?

Let me be the first to say, "You are crazy."

An article in today's NYTimes on the Ford escape hybrid. Apparently these hybrids sat on lots so much, their batteries went dead.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/automobiles/autosreviews/30BLOCK.html

That's a Ford for ya....I think Toyota and Honda would be a cut above....

 

[mathjak107]

depreciation on hybrids is just awful.............technology is changing,parts are changing and customers of all hybrids have been known to have extensive waits for parts ......
insurance at least here in new york is way higher on a hybrid due to the cost of damged batteries having to be replaced......

 

[Texas Proud]

That's a Ford for ya....I think Toyota and Honda would be a cut above....

Actually not.. the Honda Accord sat around for awhile as it has a 6 cylinder and you do not get the very high gas mileage..

 

[REWahoo]

Anyway, I thought I'd post about my lust and see how many call me crazy.

Want a second opinion? You're crazy.

And I'm wondering if anyone else has looked at these...

No, not as a serious purchase option. I have done quite a bit of reading about them since I have an ongoing curiosity about new technology.

...and if they know if they're selling for over sticker like the Priuses did for a while.

My bet is yes, they will sell for a premium because the bleeding edge it'sthelatesthingandIjusthavetohaveone early adopters will pay a premium and dealers will smell blood in the water leverage that opportunity.

BMJ, why pay a $7k to $10k more for the hybrid when a traditional Camry is an economical, highly reliable and proven car? You don't think the hybrid will help you pick up women, do you?

It is very likely 1) the improved gas mileage is not sufficient to provide a payback for the price premium, 2) there will be increased reliability issues due to new technology, and 3) there is a distinct possibility you may be looking at very costly replacement parts (that $%#@! battery!).

My advice is to wait a few years before buying a hybrid. But it is only fair that I disclose that I'm one of those guys who bought a bleeding edge HP miscalculator back in the early 70's.

 

[Martha]

Tax credits for 2006 on Toyota/Lexus hybrids:


2005 Toyota Prius $3150

2006 Toyota Prius $3150

2006 Toyota Highlander 4WD Hybrid $2600

2006 Toyota Highlander 2WD Hybrid $2600

2006 Lexus RX400h 2WD $2200

2006 Lexus RX400h 4WD $2200

http://tinyurl.com/rya25

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

If you wait a year or so, until your current ride gets clunkier, gas might go down a bit (or people might get used to $3 gas), and the prices might get better. And you might have a shot at someones year old used one...

Anyway, I thought I'd post about my lust and see how many call me crazy. And I'm wondering if anyone else has looked at these and if they know if they're selling for over sticker like the Priuses did for a while.

Carsdirect says $2000 over sticker...$2500 over sticker for the Pious. At this point they'll sell every one they make for whatever they ask, within reason...which is...shoot...about $7k more than the price on the regular camry. How much in tax breaks are available for the camry hybrid? Couple of grand? It'll take a long, long time to chew up $5000 in gas.

BTW the 2007 Camrys look like Lexuses.

Thats "Lexi" and there sure is a lot of bleed between the car lines. Which is a good thing if you can go Toyota and get some of the downdraft from the Lexus styling and engineering people.

 

[mathjak107]

they get worse gas milage on the highway than the regular version most of the time because the battary weights are very heavy.and to spend so much extra money for quick hops around town is crazy....hybrids so far are an exercise in over priced technology

 

[Danny]

Actually not.. the Honda Accord sat around for awhile as it has a 6 cylinder and you do not get the very high gas mileage..

True, the Accord and Lexus were wrong headed - emphasis on getting more power instead of maximizing MPG improvement - Civic Camry & Prius another story


Aren't these hybrids also about being better for the environment....I really really want less global warming at the moment....

 

[mathjak107]

i just got a bmw x3 4 weeks ago..its basically a 325xi with a larger cross-over body for more room....even though the lighter 325xi got 20% better milage the deals on the x3 were 80 bucks a month less on a more expensive vehicle....when i figured out even at 4.00 bucks a gallon for 4 years the less efficiant x3 was the better deal

 

[Mwsinron]

I thought the maintenance costs on the hybrids was the kicker. IE it saves in gas but is offset by cost to repair. The show I was watching said the Prius was the best of the lot but still high.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Tax credits for 2006 on Toyota/Lexus hybrids:...
http://tinyurl.com/rya25

From the link you provide:
"The tax credit for hybrid vehicles applies to vehicles purchased on or after January 1, 2006, and may be as much as $3,400 for those who purchase the most fuel-efficient vehicles. "

It may have something to do with date of purchase, and it does contradict their own list, but hey, it's the IRS

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

depreciation on hybrids is just awful.............technology is changing,parts are changing and customers of all hybrids have been known to have extensive waits for parts ......
insurance at least here in new york is way higher on a hybrid due to the cost of damged batteries having to be replaced......

Time will tell, and the battery is warranted for 8 years, if I recall. My guess is that 5 years from now the market for 06 hybrids will be very weak with rapid technology advances, etc.

I've kept most of my vehicles 10-11 years so depreciation has not been an issue. But my current job is the first one I have ever had with more than a 6 mile commute so it seems a good fit; may get "better," alas, if oil becomes scarce for a while.

 

[Outtahere]

I just bought a new car, I looked at the hybrids but for the type of driving I do (mostly highway) it didn't make sense. I had a Pontiac Sunfire that consistantly came in between 30 to 35 mpg for the past 4 years. I tried a couple of the hybrids, dh hated them, ended up with a Pontiac Vibe. Dh loves it, very roomy, fold down seats for the dog or my fleamarketing stuff, we may even take that on our yearly drive to FL this winter since it suppose to get 34mph highway. First weeks mpg came in at 29.9 and that included a lot of local city driving. I figure by the time I need another car the hybrids will have worked out all the bugs or they will be a blip on the radar as the technology changes. I also couldn't justify the extra price just to commute to and from work.

 

[jclarksnakes]

My mother recently bought a 2007 Camry LE. I drove it last weekend and was impressed with how nice it is. Smooth, quiet, roomy, well laid out, put together nice, smooth body panels, very acceptable paint, etc. Not a car that I would lust after though. It seems to me that the hybrid is only the way to go if you are into the newest and trendiest "stuff" because it is not necessarily a more practical or more economical vehicle overall than the regular Camry. And as was mentioned earlier there could be reliability and parts availability issues with the new technology. On the other hand my son-in-law just got a new Lexus IS 350 which is about three levels of excitement and lust above any Camry.
jc

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

i totally love the idea of a hybrid and i'm considering a few years of cross-country travel but i don't think they make a convertible and i'm sort of spoiled by the acceleration of 300-hp.

i'm a very bad yet concerned environmentalist. to make up for my gas guzzling shortcomings i am going to encourage you to buy the hybrid.

i think you are precisely on the right track. i don't think you could make a better decision. go ahead. follow your lust.

 

[Alex]

Here's an interesting view on Hydrids. the full article is linked below
http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml
Here's a few excperts:

But despite all these drawbacks, hybrids are at least better for the environment than say….. a Hummer, right? Nope.

Spinella spent two years on the most comprehensive study to date – dubbed "Dust to Dust" -- collecting data on the energy necessary to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a car from the initial conception to scrappage. He even included in the study such minutia as plant-to-dealer fuel costs of each vehicle, employee driving distances, and electricity usage per pound of material. All this data was then boiled down to an "energy cost per mile" figure for each car (see here and here).

Comparing this data, the study concludes that overall hybrids cost more in terms of overall energy consumed than comparable non-hybrid vehicles. But even more surprising, smaller hybrids' energy costs are greater than many large, non-hybrid SUVs.

For instance, the dust-to-dust energy cost of the bunny-sized Honda Civic hybrid is $3.238 per mile. This is quite a bit more than the $1.949 per mile that the elephantine Hummer costs. The energy cots of SUVs such as the Tahoe, Escalade, and Navigator are similarly far less than the Civic hybrid.

As for Ford cars, a Ford Escape hybrid costs $3.2 per mile – about a third more than the regular Escape. But on the whole, ironically enough, the dust-to-dust costs of many of the Ford non-hybrids – Fusion, Milan, Zephyr – are not only lower than comparable Japanese hybrids – Prius, Accord -- but also non-hybrids – Seville, Civic.

Spinella's finding that a Hummer on the whole consumes less energy than a hybrid than even some smaller hybrids and non-hybrids has infuriated environmentalists. And on its face it does seem implausible that a gas-guzzling monster like a Hummer that employs several times more raw material than a little Prius' could be so much less energy-intensive. But by and large the dust-to-dust energy costs in Spinella's study correlate with the fanciness of the car – not its size or fuel economy -- with the Rolls Royces and Bentleys consuming gobs of energy and Mazda 3s, Saturns and Taurus consuming relatively minuscule amounts.

As for Hummers, Spinella explains, the life of these cars averaged across various models is over 300,000 miles. By contrast, Prius' life – according to Toyota's own numbers – is 100,000 miles. Furthermore, Hummer is a far less sophisticated vehicle. Its engine obviously does not have an electric and gas component as a hybrid's does so it takes much less time and energy to manufacture. What's more, its main raw ingredient is low-cost steel, not the exotic light-weights that are exceedingly difficult to make – and dispose. But the biggest reason why a Hummer's energy use is so low is that it shares many components with other vehicles and therefore its design and development energy costs are spread across many cars.

It is not possible to do this with a specialty product like hybrid. All in all, Spinella insists, the energy costs of disposing a Hummer are 60 percent less than an average hybrid's and its design and development costs are 80 percent less.

there's a link to the full report in the article.....

 

[Mwsinron]

Im sold on the whole hybrid idea also. Just waiting till they fine tune it a bit more.

 

[unclemick]

Soooo - my 247000 mile 1994 GMC Sonoma 4 banger 5 speed - WITH rusty fender is still in the hunt.

Just gotta nurse it over 300,000 miles.

heh heh heh

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Here's an interesting view on Hydrids. the full article is linked below
http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml
Here's a few excperts:there's a link to the full report in the article.....

Read that same article, and didn't buy it. Nearly every rationalization argument they use is just a matter of economy of scale. One hybrids are as numerous as SUVs, many of those will evaporate in my estimation.

Meantime, I'm saving over $2K a year on gas and polluting much less. Not for everyone, but if you do the right kind of driving and don't confuse the size of your phallus with your car, it can be a great alternative.

 

[kz]

I lusted after the Camry hybrid, too. Instead I bought the Rav4. It came down to hauling some large dogs around and the Rav won out. Still lust after the Camry hybrid though.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Interesting link re: investing and hybrids:

Alliance-Bernstein

 

[eridanus]

Here's an interesting view on Hydrids. the full article is linked below
http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml
Here's a few excperts:there's a link to the full report in the article.....

"But the biggest reason why a Hummer's energy use is so low is that it shares many components with other vehicles and therefore its design and development energy costs are spread across many cars."

Uh huh. : That include the original design?