They pay how much to a lifeguard?

[ERD50]

Did we turn socialist all of a sudden when I wasn't looking? Do we take a vote or appoint a committee to decide how much a job is worth? If lifeguards are being paid more than market rate, that's too much. Otherwise, it's not.

I gotta repeat GregLee here. What's up with all this "what they are worth" and "compared to what other people make" talk? If it's a free market, they need to pay what they need to pay to attract the talent they need. End of story. No judgement involved.

-ERD50

 

[Mulligan]

I gotta repeat GregLee here. What's up with all this "what they are worth" and "compared to what other people make" talk? If it's a free market, they need to pay what they need to pay to attract the talent they need. End of story. No judgement involved.

-ERD50

When government sets salary, I would tend to think there is more than just "market forces" at play when determining what is paid. The highest paid navy seal that stormed Bin Laden's place was $54,000, I read in newspaper. Would tend to think if true market forces were at play their salary might be a tad more since they are the elitist of the elite. Not taking anything from the lifeguards because they didn't set the salary, but their union seemed to back off the benefit package once it was published. I will admit, it's too easy to pass judgement when playing the salary comparison game. A lot of variables to consider that I'm not thinking through on I'm sure.

 

[Webzter]

When government sets salary, I would tend to think there is more than just "market forces" at play when determining what is paid.

Just remember, these salaries were set at the local level. The union didn't say "hey, we decided we're all worth $x" and it became true. First, an official had to decide that life guards belonged to the fire department. For any pay raises, the union had to negotiate with the city. The city then likely had to put forward a millage increase that the citizens had to vote on.

All this information has (I'm guessing) been public since the start of the process and isn't just some new revelation. Any millage votes I've seen fairly clearly state what the funding is for as well.

So, if anyone is to blame, it's a local populace that didn't care where their money was going when times were good but, now that they're suffering, they're crying wolf because someone else isn't suffering as well.

If you don't like how your elected official is representing you, then you need to organize and replace them with someone else. This is much easier to organize at the local level than anywhere else.

 

[chinaco]

I gotta repeat GregLee here. What's up with all this "what they are worth" and "compared to what other people make" talk? If it's a free market, they need to pay what they need to pay to attract the talent they need. End of story. No judgement involved.

-ERD50

No it is not a free market situation if it is a govt funded job.

For all you know the city council... or governing body, or bureaucrat that sets the wages could have a BIL or nephew in that job.... or a plum to be handed out for political favors to politically aligned supporters (family members).

Think it doesn't happen?? Think again!


http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Lifeguard-l-California.html

http://www.ihiresportsandrecreation.com/t-Lifeguard-s-California-salary.html

But... that high salary is said to be for a management position.... but still. It seem a bit excessive to me!

 

[Sandhog]

They'd deserve it even more if the drunks and idiots were billed for the full cost of their rescues.

I think they should billed their rescues to rescues to fund the lifeguards. I'll bet lifeguards would have supplemental fund after all the salaries and benefits are paid. In NYC, fire department billed the accident rescues starting last year. Needless to say, minor fender benders call to 911 drop dramatically. My cousin is a FDNY firefighter. I don't envy his pension although it's going to be about $100K/yr.

 

[Sandhog]

No it is not a free market situation if it is a govt funded job.

For all you know the city council... or governing body, or bureaucrat that sets the wages could have a BIL or nephew in that job.... or a plum to be handed out for political favors to politically aligned supporters (family members).

Think it doesn't happen?? Think again!

I'm sure it does happen. But small percentage of the folks who gets to ride the gravy train of their family or friends political success. My cousin who is going to retired from FDNY with nearly $100K/yr in pension, he and his fellow firefighters got their job through open application process as most of all government jobs are. I didn't sign up for a government job because starting salary was way too low for a licensed civil engineer (structural). Anyhow, I work as a laborer with a local union and was making more than twice of that of my job as a structural engineer. I left the back breaking work although money was good due to being older and not being able to preformed the physical tasks. Now, I have to work two jobs as an engineer to make about the same as when I worked as a laborer.

No one handed those lifeguards their jobs. Anyone who would qualified could have applied and got the job. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. If I had took the government job, I should be making good salary with defined pension. But it was the choice that I made. Could've, Should've,....

If anyone wanted those lifeguard jobs or any of government jobs, they should just joint them instead of bitching about how much they make. They will see first hand that they will be starting out at very low salary compare to private sector. It's like people only talk about global warming during heat waves.

 

[Rustic23]

Check this site: Master of Business Administration - MBA Degree Salaries - PayScale Now where does that life guard fit in?

Senior Financial Analyst $56,410 - $89,302
Financial Controller $67,668 - $122,796
Project Manager, Information Technology (IT) $59,279 - $115,000
General / Operations Manager $45,958 - $143,009
Vice President (VP), Operations $79,668 - $172,607
Chief Financial Officer (CFO) $61,042 - $231,261
Operations Director $54,631 - $161,073
Manager 13 full time life guards $200,000

 

[Sandhog]

$58,000 starting salary! Check this site: Master of Business Administration - MBA Degree Salaries - PayScale Now where does that life guard fit in?

Senior Financial Analyst $56,410 - $89,302
Financial Controller $67,668 - $122,796
Project Manager, Information Technology (IT) $59,279 - $115,000
General / Operations Manager $45,958 - $143,009
Vice President (VP), Operations $79,668 - $172,607
Chief Financial Officer (CFO) $61,042 - $231,261
Operations Director $54,631 - $161,073
Manager 13 full time life guards $200,000

That's the starting salary range. I know a guy who works on the trading floor who makes $850K/yr and don't even have a college degree. I like what his making but don't know first thing how he got there or where to start. He's been working for over 30 years. Those who wants the lifeguards job, let them start out as part time at $15/hr and work their way up.

 

[ERD50]

No it is not a free market situation if it is a govt funded job.[/URL]

(And to others who said this), that is why I said IF it was a free market. It's not, but that does not change my view of the judgments I see here about whether this pay is excessive or not. We cannot judge that, only a free market can do that.


-ERD50

 

[Rustic23]

Erd50,
I disagree. Even a free market gets out of kilter now and then. When we are paying life guards more than MBA graduates, the free market is not working, something else appears to be effecting supply and demand.

 

[ERD50]

Erd50,
I disagree. Even a free market gets out of kilter now and then. When we are paying life guards more than MBA graduates, the free market is not working, something else appears to be effecting supply and demand.

If it's not working, it is not a free market. "Something else" affecting supply/demand is just saying it isn't a free market.

And I don't doubt that this is not a free market. But we can't judge if the pay is 'fair' or not, unless we have some specific knowledge of that market. Now, if you personally know that they turn away hundreds of fully qualified people for those lifeguard jobs each year, then we could assume that many of those would take the job for less. With that info, we could venture that the job is over-paid. W/O info, it's a guess/opinion.

-ERD50

 

[Webzter]

Erd50,
I disagree. Even a free market gets out of kilter now and then. When we are paying life guards more than MBA graduates, the free market is not working, something else appears to be effecting supply and demand.

Except that life guard is likely both smarter and more skilled than many of the MBAs I know

I also know which one I'd rather go on a boat fishing with.

 

[Rustic23]

It's called an opinion.

No one knows anything for sure, unless they are a part of it, and even then they may not know. When I hear about City employees making millions for a job that others in the nation are paid thousands, I conclude something is not right. When I hear they are paying life guards $58,000 starting salary, and senior managers $200,000, those numbers, IMHO, are so far out side the norm of what people make today for similar skilled jobs, I form the opinion something else other than free market is going on. We are talking about 13 jobs. Limited skilled competition? In my OPINION not likely.

Ninety percent of what is posted on this board is opinion! My guess the good people are going to be revisiting this issue, but the Fire Fighters Union will howl.

 

[chinaco]

Plus a nice pension and benefit plan at 50...

http://townhall.com/columnists/davidspady/2011/05/08/$200,000_lifeguards_to_receive_millions_in_retirement/page/full/


Well... I guess we can see how CA wound up in the situation is it in.


They will find out if it is as easy to pay for as it was to hand it out!

 

[ERD50]

It's called an opinion.

I understand. But we heard opinions that it is too much, and others saying it is justified because of the demands, or based on what others make. All I'm saying is you can hold an opinion, and it may vary from others. They can't both be right. But a free market will provide the correct answer.


-ERD50

 

[soupcxan]

I hear that EMTs' pay is dismal, $50k or less many places, and yet they face many of the same challenges as lifeguards (requires training, quick thinking, responsibility for someone else's life, etc.). Obviously EMTs aren't diving into huge waves but are lifeguards really worth 4x as much as EMTs?

If I were a municipal budget director [edit: in CA], I would rather hire 4 EMTs than 1 lifeguard any day of the week, just in terms of # of lives saved / injuries reduced. I love the beach but come on.

 

[haha]

I hear that EMTs' pay is dismal, $50k or less many places, and yet they face many of the same challenges as lifeguards (requires training, quick thinking, responsibility for someone else's life, etc.). Obviously EMTs aren't diving into huge waves but are lifeguards really worth 4x as much as EMTs?

If I were a municipal budget director, I would rather hire 4 EMTs than 1 lifeguard any day of the week, just in terms of # of lives saved / injuries reduced. I love the beach but come on.

I know that beach in Dallas is nice, but...

 

[Delawaredave5]

Did we turn socialist all of a sudden when I wasn't looking? Do we take a vote or appoint a committee to decide how much a job is worth? If lifeguards are being paid more than market rate, that's too much. Otherwise, it's not.

+1. They should reverse auction the job. Fully qualified people would line up for 50% of what's currently paid - with no pension and no overtime.

 

[Gworker]

The LAFD’s STARTING
salary is $53,766- $74,416 a year
Effective 07/01/2008

That is from the L.A. Fire Departments website. California has always had high paying civil service jobs. But even at those high salaries many of the workers have to live an hour or more away.

 

[Mulligan]

+1. They should reverse auction the job. Fully qualified people would line up for 50% of what's currently paid - with no pension and no overtime.

This would have been an excellent post to the recent thread on outraged over CEO pay!

 

[TromboneAl]

I think they should be billed for their rescues to fund the lifeguards. I'll bet lifeguards would have supplemental fund after all the salaries and benefits are paid. In NYC, fire department billed the accident rescues starting last year. Needless to say, minor fender benders call to 911 drop dramatically. My cousin is a FDNY firefighter. I don't envy his pension although it's going to be about $100K/yr.

This works until someone drowns because he was too cheap to yell "help."

There was some boater here who almost died. When asked why he didn't radio the coast guard sooner, he said it was because he thought he'd be charged for the rescue.

 

[Sandhog]

This works until someone drowns because he was too cheap to yell "help."

There was some boater here who almost died. When asked why he didn't radio the coast guard sooner, he said it was because he thought he'd be charged for the rescue.

And that would be most members in the FIRE Forum.

 

[M Paquette]

Hrmph. A REAL Rugged Individualist doesn't need this Nanny State Safety Net. A Rugged Individualist will avoid getting into trouble in the water through a combination of intellectual and physical prowess, combined with the ability to give himself CPR through sheer force of will.

Bad Things never ever happen to the properly prepared Rugged Individualist.




Note to Rugged Individualists: The above post is satire.

 

[Rustic23]

Dang, and I was about to congratulate you on your astute observation, until I read the small print.

The volunteer fire departments in our county will file a claim with the home owner for responding to their properties. A neighbor brought up that we should not adopt this policy with our VFD as someone might not call if they have a fire to avoid the charge. I have little time with dumb people. If they will risk their home burning so they are not charged a $1,000 bucks to put it out, then so be it.

 

[Mulligan]

Just read online the ruckus over lifeguard pay in California has caused immediate changes for future lifeguard supervisors pensions. Instead of getting 90% of pay in retirement plus health benes, it has been reduced to 60%. The uproar started over a lifeguard having a 105,000 pension plus paid health benefits at age 51.