Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Coupe

[Bimmerbill]

I've had good luck with my VW diesel Jetta. I hear Honda will be releasing an Accord diesel in 2009 that should get 40 or 50 mpg.

I can run biodiesel in my Jetta, but have not done so yet. A local gas station has B20 so I may try that.

I think diesels put out more fine particles, but less CO2. But I figure I am getting close to 50 mpg so using less fuel has to be better than driving a gasser getting 30 mpg.

 

[chinaco]

I just saw a commercial that Toyota has a hybrid Camry that will be sold this year.

 

[Nords]

I had an interesting conversation with a 40-something tae kwon do parent last night. Retired Air Force sergeant morphed into biker dude: shaved head, goatee, tank tops with buff biceps, his & hers hogs, Harley haberdashery. I wouldn't expect to see his profile in any of Toyota's consumer focus groups.

He said that their new Prius gets better gas mileage than any motorcycle they've ever owned. Now he and his wife squabble over who gets to commute in the Prius and he can see the day coming when he's going to have to buy a second one...

 

[Danny]

Here are some upcoming Hybrids:

Honda Fit Hybrid (5 seat compact)

• Est. release date: Mid-2007
• What we know: The Honda Fit subcompact 5-seater is being introduced in the U.S. market in 2007. With a base MSRP of a little under $14,000, the automatic fit gets an EPA estimated 31 city/38 highway at a LEV II smog-forming emissions level. According to a HybridCars.com interview with an industry source, the Fit will be outfitted with the Insight’s hybrid drivetrain (the Insight was discontinued in September 2006) and will be introduced in mid-2007 in hybrid version with an expected mpg in the low-to-mid-50s. More recent reports suggest Honda is focusing more on its next generation hybrid (see below) -- this may either delay or derail a Fit Hybrid.

Chevrolet Tahoe/GMC Yukon (7 seat full-sized SUV)

• Est. release date: Fall 2007
• What we know: GM is to introduce first genuine hybrids with Chevrolet Tahoe/GMC Yukon Hybrid. The 2006 conventional Tahoe 2WD gets an estimated 17mpg. GM is saying that its “dual mode” hybrid system, based on the hybrid system used in its hybrid passenger buses, will deliver approximately 25 percent better fuel economy.

Mazda Tribute Hybrid (5 seat compact SUV)

• Est. release date: Test fleet in 2006 with full production in 2007
• What we know: Tribute will be based on Ford Escape Hybrid drivetrain. The Department of Transportation’s Fueleconomy.gov website gives the ’06 Tribute Hybrid a combined 31 mpg (33 city, 29 highway) and a SULEV II smog-forming emissions rating in California emissions compliant states and Tier 2, Bin 4 in states under the federal system.

Dodge Durango Hybrid (7 seat full-sized SUV)

• Est. release date: 2007
• What we know: Dodge Durango Hybrid will be Daimler/Chrysler’s first genuine hybrid. It will use GM’s “dual-mode” hybrid system now that Daimler-Chrysler has a hybrid technology sharing agreement with General Motors and BMW.

 

[Danny]

Future Hybrids

Lexus LS 600h L (5 seat luxury sedan)

• Est. release date: April 2007
• What we know: Lexus will introduce its newest luxury "performance-hybrid" sedan in April 2007. The LS 600h L sedan will be even more muscular than the GS 450h muscle hybrid, boasting the world's first full hybrid V8 powertrain. It combines a 5-liter gasoline direct-injection V8 with large, high-output electric motors and a newly-designed battery pack to deliver more than 330 kW (442 hp) of total system power. At the Paris Auto Show, Toyota predicted fuel consumption at less than 9.5 liters/100km (around 25 mpg).

2008-2010 Saturn Green Line Vue

• Est. release date: Fall 2008
• What we know: GM announced at the 2006-2007 Los Angeles Auto Show that, in 2008, they will be releasing a new version of the Green Line Vue that will employ the GM "two-mode" hybrid drivetrain and net a 45 percent improvement in fuel economy over the conventional Vue. Note that in September 2007, GM will be introducing a redesigned Green Line Vue, but it will be using the same conventional technology improvements that are in the current "hollow hybrid" model (see Hollow Hybrids list for current Green Line models). GM also announced they plan to market a plugin version of the Vue, but a production date has yet to be announced.

Toyota Sienna Hybrid (7 seat minivan)

• Est. release date: 2008-2009
• What we know: Toyota Sienna Hybrid is likely to be the first hybrid minivan on the market, though its introduction has been continually rumored and postponed. The Sienna Hybrid's drivetrain will likely be based on the smaller Estima minivan currently sold only in Japan. Toyota is unlikely to make the estimated 35mpg Estima available in the U.S. for fear of brand competition with its larger Sienna.

Honda next generation hybrid (5 seat compact)

• Est. release date: 2009
  What we know: Honda will introduce a new hybrid in 2009 that the company hopes will challenge Toyota’s hybrid market dominance. Honda confirms that the new hybrid will be smaller and cheaper than the current Honda Civic Hybrid and will be an entirely new vehicle, not merely a hybridized version of an existing model (such as the expected Fit Hybrid). Production is expected to be around 200,000 per year and the styling will be akin to the Honda Remix concept vehicle introduced at the 2007 LA Auto Show.

 

[Danny]

Future Hybrids

Toyota Prius Gen. 3 (5 seat midsize)

• Est release date: 2008
  What we know: The next generation Toyota Prius is going to be significantly redesigned, may be built in the United States, and while Toyota officials have confirmed that the new design will not be a plugin hybrid, a Guardian news article quoted Shinichi Abe, head of Toyota’s hybrid division as saying that the next Prius model will be able to do a nine-mile commute to work without using any petrol or diesel, and rumors persist of a plugin possibility, especially now that GM has announced plans for a plugin Vue (see Saturn Green Line Vue, 2007). Auto Express magazine in the UK reported in December 2006 that Toyota engineers are targeting an mileage rating of 113 mpg (other rumors have it more in the 70-90 mpg range -- the discrepancy may be due to the differences between the Japanese and American fuel economy tests), with improved 0-60 mph acceleration of less than 10 seconds. The internal combustion part of the drive train is reported to be a new turbocharged 1.8L lean burn four cylinder.

Cadillac Escalade Hybrid

• Est. release date: Spring 2008
• What we know: Kate Hudson gave the Escalade Hybrid a surprise debut on the Oscar's red carpet in February 2007. Like the Tahoe and Yukon gas-electrics, the Escalade hybrid will be a two-mode hybrid that supplements a 6.0-liter V-8 with power from two electric motors. GM claims the Yukon/Tahoe Hybrids will get a 25 percent fuel economy boost compared with the standard equipped 5.3-liter V-8 engine. The boost over the standard Escalade, which comes with the gas-thirsty 403-hp, 6.2-liter V-8, is likely to be even more significant.

Hyundai Accent/Kia Rio Hybrid (5 seat compact)

• Est. release date: 2008-2009
• What we know: Unlike Nissan, this hybrid technology is their own, not borrowed from Toyota. At a November 2005 unveiling at the Guangzhou, China auto show, Hyundai said the engine achieves a 44 percent improvement in fuel economy. The conventional Accent lists at around $10,000, so these cars could be the first hybrids to have a MSRP at significantly under $20k. Although originally slotted to be brought to the U.S. market in late 2006 or early 2007, the increasing value of the Korean won has changed Hyundai's plans, and the launch of this hybrid line in America has now been pushed back until at least the 2009 model year. Kia featured the Rio Hybrid at the 2007 Geneva Auto show, and has given 4,000 Rio Hybrids to the Korean Ministry of the Environment for the largest ever ‘real-world’ testing program in Korea to develop clean and efficient hybrid vehicles.

Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid (5 seat sedan)

• Est. release date: 2008
• What we know: Much like the Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner Hybrid SUVs, this will be Ford’s practical/premium launch into the hybrid sedan market. The 2006 conventional Fusion and Milan offer both four and six cylinder engines.

 

[Danny]

Future Hybrids
Porsche Cayenne Hybrid (5 seat sedan)

• Est. release date: 2008-2009
• What we know: At the 2005 Frankfurt Auto Show, Porsche reps said that their full hybrid system will maintain the performance of the conventional Cayenne while cutting fuel consumption by 15 percent. Sounds rather like a muscle hybrid, but we’ll see.

Porsche Panamera Hybrid (5 seat compact)

• Est. release date: 2008-2009
• What we know: Porsche's new four-door hatchback coupe scheduled for launch in 2008 or 2009 will be designed from the start with the option of a hybrid engine. Using similar "muscular" engine technology to the Cayenne SUV, the V10 to V12 engines will be supplied by the Stuttgart- Zuffenhausen plant. 20,000 units a year are expected to be built per year.

Mercedes S-Class Hybrid

• Est. release date: Early 2008
• What we know: DaimlerChrysler board member Dr. Thomas Weber stated that Mercedes will bring a mild hybrid version of the S-class sedan to market in 2008. The concept model S350 was unveiled at the 2005 Frankfurt auto show, and sported a V6 engine and lithium-ion battery pack. This "Direct Hybrid" drive, as Mercedes calls it, boasted a 33 percent improvement in fuel economy over a conventional S-class that gets an EPA-estimated combined 20mpg.

VW Touareg Hybrid

• Est. release date: 2009-2010
• What we know: It looks as if the new regime at VW, installed in November 2006, has decided to shift to an SUV platform for their first hybrid from the long rumored Jetta. A Touareg Hybrid would likely increase the chances of the rumored development of a Porsche Cayenne Hybrid (see above), given that the two vehicles were developed jointly by Porsche and VW.

Toyota FT-HS Sportscar

• Est. release date: 2009-2010
• What we know: At the 2007 Detroit Auto Show, Toyota debuted its hybrid sportscar concept, the FT-HS. The concept is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive sports car with a projected 0-60-mph acceleration in the 4-second range. A 3.5-liter V6 is coupled with a hybrid system. Toyota says the car would have a "mid-priced market position" and be an "attainable exotic." According to a piece in Automobile magazine, the Japanese carmaker has approved production, with a saleable version ready by 2009 at the earliest.

 

[kathyet]

Were planning on getting a Prius in September my husband fiqured that with my Honda Accord (which we are keeping) getting 20 miles to the gallon at 3.00 per gallon for 10000 miles per year it costs $1500.00 per year.

With us getting the Prius and figuring at 45 miles per gallon and at 3.00 per gallon, at 10000 miles per year the cost would be 667 per year.

Were averaging the cost of gas and the mileage it could get better on either car it depends on the way you drive.

If you keep the Prius for a long time you make out pretty good, the only maintenance would be the oil change the battery has a 7 year battery warranty...

From the test drive we took it is pretty comfortable and we think a great little car for around town and if you have a lot of traffic it is even better..the cost is about 24,000...but we keep our cars for 10 years or more...so the numbers add up for us....

Kathyet

 

[travelover]

I have been driving a hybrid for 5 months now (Escape) and the fun factor is hard to quantify. It is especially fun to drive in silent electric mode in parking lots and subdivisions - sort of stealth mode. Also handy when you come home at 3 AM..........

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

• GM is saying that its “dual mode” hybrid system, based on the hybrid system used in its hybrid passenger buses, will deliver approximately 25 percent better fuel economy.

So that'll be what...4 to 5 MPG?

Shouldnt you be concerned when you're adapting technology from buses for your passenger vehicles?

 

[yakers]

So that'll be what...4 to 5 MPG?

Shouldnt you be concerned when you're adapting technology from buses for your passenger vehicles?

No, the technology for busses is a great idea. It will save a lot of fuel and reduce emissions. And whatever is learned will transfer. Hybrid busses are an even better idea than hybrid cars.

 

[Nords]

And whatever is learned will transfer. Hybrid busses are an even better idea than hybrid cars.

What a great concept-- a hybrid diesel-electric that'll haul passengers.

We should call it... a locomotive.

 

[FinanceDude]

What a great concept-- a hybrid diesel-electric that'll haul passengers.

We should call it... a locomotive.

Nords, you kill me..........

Too bad our roads don't have the low coefficient of drag/rolling resistance than railroad rails do........no wonder those guys can pull a locomotive with their teeth, try that with my minivan!!!

 

[FinanceDude]

So that'll be what...4 to 5 MPG?

Shouldnt you be concerned when you're adapting technology from buses for your passenger vehicles?

I'm not an engineer, but I wonder how MUCH diesel we would save by getting the MPG UP on semis........I guess they got around 4mpg in the 70's, and now get around 7-8mpg. There has to be a way for a regenerative system so they can capture some energy to use at the lower rpm's.........I thought electric motors had HUGE torque right away? So why can't we figure it out??

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

BTW, my comment above was sarcasm, not intended to be an actual statement of interest.

FD...I'm fully prepared to attempt to pull a train with your minivan.

Shoot...looks like I owe Justin another 50c. I better see if I can line up any more work with Mike.

 

[travelover]

I'm not an engineer, but I wonder how MUCH diesel we would save by getting the MPG UP on semis........I guess they got around 4mpg in the 70's, and now get around 7-8mpg. There has to be a way for a regenerative system so they can capture some energy to use at the lower rpm's.........I thought electric motors had HUGE torque right away? So why can't we figure it out??

There are other regen systems than electric. Some vehicles that make frequent stops store stopping energy with a hydraulic pressure storage system which is released to launch the vehicle back up to speed. Perfect for buses, garbage trucks, UPS, etc. Less expensive than batteries and low tech.

 

[ERD50]

I'm not an engineer, but I wonder how MUCH diesel we would save by getting the MPG UP on semis

...I thought electric motors had HUGE torque right away? So why can't we figure it out??

Dude...this has a deja'vu ring to it. Travelover is right, re-read your thread on this from a while back:


http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/real-way-to-save-oil-25781-2.html



Hybrids good for stop/go. Electro-motive good for locomotive (they would need 200 gear changes to get that dead start load moving). Hybrid on a long-haul semi? If it was so good they would be doing it already. The transportation companies are well aware that fuel costs money and that more mpg means less fuel.

And while low sulfur diesel fuel can be a great thing for the environment, it isn't helping any in diesel mpg:

Ultra-low sulfur diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The refining process that removes the sulfur also reduces the aromatic content and density of the fuel, resulting in a minor decrease in the energy content, by about 1%. This decrease in energy content may result in reduced peak power and fuel economy.

Seems like a good trade-off though.

-ERD50

 

[FinanceDude]

FD...I'm fully prepared to attempt to pull a train with your minivan.

What I MEANT was that the rolling resistance on a locomotive is SO MUCH LESS than a minivan that the same "strongman" that can pull a loco with his teeth would be wearing dentrures soon after trying to do the same with my minivan..........

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Yeah I know. But it'd be more fun to do it with your minivan.

 

[FinanceDude]

Yeah I know. But it'd be more fun to do it with your minivan.

I used to have a 67 Chevelle 396 H.O.I probably WOULD have tried to do that with.......

I heard Honda Pilots can tow 100,000 tons these days...........

 

[bpp3]

Honda Fit: We looked at this last time we were car shopping, 5 years ago. Impressive mileage, but scary as heck from a safety standpoint.

 

[Telly]

......Electro-motive good for locomotive....
-ERD50

Good word play!

What's good for the country is good for General Motors. And it was in this case too - EMD (Electro Motive Division), a division of General Motors. The biggest maker of diesel-electrics the world over.

 

[Telly]

Honda Fit: We looked at this last time we were car shopping, 5 years ago. Impressive mileage, but scary as heck from a safety standpoint.

Isn't the car called the Honda FIT here in the US, a new design? The older Honda citycars in Japan would never meet US safety standards. I was under the impression that the Honda FIT was designed for the North American market.

 

[bpp3]

Isn't the car called the Honda FIT here in the US, a new design? The older Honda citycars in Japan would never meet US safety standards. I was under the impression that the Honda FIT was designed for the North American market.

Externally, it looks like the same car they've been selling here for six years. Wikipedia sez:

In keeping with Honda's safety initiative, the Fit is offered in North America with standard side airbags, side-curtain airbags, and ABS, in addition to the mandatory front airbags. Due to differing safety regulations, North American Fits have larger bumpers than the rest of the world, resulting in a slight increase in overall length.
The Fit is offered in two variants in the United States (Base and Sport), and three in Canada (DX, LX and Sport). Differences are primarily limited to cosmetics and standard equipment. All models share the same 1.5 L 109 hp (81 kW) engine and standard 5-speed manual transmission. A conventional 5-speed automatic transmission is optional, instead of the CVT found throughout the rest of the world. The Fit Sport receives paddle shifters mounted behind the steering wheel when ordered with the automatic. In the United States, the base model is priced at US$13,850, with the automatic transmission adding $800 and the Sport package adding $1,320. In Canada, it starts at CAD$14,980 for a DX with manual transmission, and goes to $20,880 for a Sport with automatic transmission.

Doesn't sound like the differences are very significant.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I heard Honda Pilots can tow 100,000 tons these days

I can certify that they'll tow about 30,000lbs, about 1000lbs at a time...