Trial of the year over.

[Senator]

As a kid, I have run into the wrong apartment at least once. Running up the stairs run down the hall grab the doorknob and rush in only to see it looks totally different. if you live in an apartment, you should definitely lock your door.


Regarding the punishment, I have seen many murders that only receive probation or no jail time at all.

 

[HFWR]

A link to some pertinent info on “castle doctrine” and “stand your ground” in Texas.

https://guides.sll.texas.gov/gun-laws/stand-your-ground

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

And I don't think it is biased to observe that she had every incentive to cast herself as a moron rather than a murderer and to say that she feared for her life, because you can't shoot someone just for burgling your home, only for threatening your life.

This is incorrect, counselor. The applicable law is Texas, which has some very lenient statutes in regards to the use of deadly force.

I am curious as to what "reasonable" standard she should have been held (or was held)? Those trained in the law are quite familiar with the "similarly situated person" concept, so is she evaluated as a LEO or as a regular person coming home after a long shift at work? I think that plays a pretty big part in the reasonableness of it.

As far as the judge hugging the defendant. I am not entirely sure what to make of it, as at that point the defendant was then a convicted murderer. This is just more evidence (to me, anyway) that the jury got this one wrong.

 

[Rianne]

This case goes down as a "murder mystery" in my book. Too many unknowns. I felt extreme emotion when the news broke of Susan Smith. She was a great actress. Where are the sleuths in this case? I never take the obvious to heart. We give too much credit to the obvious "facts" and not enough credit to well thought out devious character in some people. There are innocent people accused of crimes sitting in prison, even on death row. It's the roll of the dice.

So many, Amanda Knox, OJ on and on. So many cold cases, never solved.
I have no opinion of her innocence or guilt. Good discussion, though.

 

[Gumby]

This is incorrect, counselor. The applicable law is Texas, which has some very lenient statutes in regards to the use of deadly force.

So I have come to learn thanks to HFWR. In Connecticut, we do not have such a lenient "castle doctrine". Quare whether you can use the castle doctrine when it's not your castle? She probably could not do that here. The judge allowed it to be argued, but I'm not convinced she was right to do so.

I am curious as to what "reasonable" standard she should have been held (or was held)? Those trained in the law are quite familiar with the "similarly situated person" concept, so is she evaluated as a LEO or as a regular person coming home after a long shift at work? I think that plays a pretty big part in the reasonableness of it.

Hard to say. In some circumstances, those who have special training and/or who hold a position of public trust are held to a higher reasonableness standard than those who do not. Apparently, however, the defense was attempting to assert that she was acting as an LEO, claiming, for example, that she yelled "show me your hands" and somehow (although I don't know this part for sure) that the shooting was incident to making an arrest of a burglar, which triggers a different part of the statutes that is, in some respects, more solicitous of the LEO use of force (e.g. - in CT, LEOs have no "duty to retreat"). It seems to me that the defense can't have that both ways. You have to choose -- regular person or LEO, but not both at the same time, although I have done absolutely no research to verify that position.

As far as the judge hugging the defendant. I am not entirely sure what to make of it, as at that point the defendant was then a convicted murderer. This is just more evidence (to me, anyway) that the jury got this one wrong.

I don't take it as evidence of anything other than the judge realizing the tragedy of it all, for everyone, defendant included.


Close cases make for the most interesting legal discussions. I'm sure we'll hear much more about this as the appeal goes forward.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Where I live now the cops tend to shoot first and ask questions later. A woman called the police because her elderly mother was suicidal. When they arrived she ran outside and they immediately shot her in the leg. Then they went in the house and killed her unarmed old mother. This is not unusual here. A few cops have been murdered by nut cases here for no reason. I wouldn’t want any of my family in that job anymore. I was downtown once and saw a teenager walking across the street with earbuds in. A cop said something to him from behind which he didn’t hear and then ran up and threw him into a pole. Did he have a valid reason? Not unless he was wanted for a crime. If I get pulled over my plan is to put both hands on the wheel at top and wait for permission to get my information out of the glove box. I didn’t feel this way when I lived in Wisconsin.

 

[Beststash]

Personally I was just glad to see a conviction. In many cases involving a Police Officer that is not the case. I do think the sentencing was a little too lenient but I will defer that to the jury who heard all of the facts.

I was very impressed by the victim's brother who I think was very inspirational. It was definitely a tragedy for all involved. I wish the Judge had left her religious beliefs out of it.

 

[DFDubb]

Yeah I don't get these judges and other elected officials that cannot seem to grasp the idea of the separation of church and state. It makes my blood boil to be honest. Had I been the defendant, I'd likely have just tossed her bible on the floor out of principle. What is she going to do, send me to prison?

 

[NW-Bound]

Here in the US, it is commonly accepted that if a burglar breaks into your home at night when you are home, you can apply deadly force on the belief that your life may be endangered, and an intruder who is so daring probably has arms. As the result, I think burglars hit empty homes during the day more than at night.

In my last trip in Spain, I talked with a British couple who had a 2nd home in Spain. They were burglarized when they were there. She went downstairs to investigate some noise, and came face-to-face with a burglar. She thought he was most likely an illegal immigrant from North Africa. She let out a blood-curdling scream and he ran off.

They told me that burglars liked to break in when the part-time owners were there; the vacant homes often did not have anything valuable and easy to sell, while visiting homeowners would have wallets with cash and electronics like cell phones and cameras. This makes for interesting encounters, and it is safer for burglars there than here as homeowners there are not armed.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Where I live now the cops tend to shoot first and ask questions later.

You are painting with a very broad brush, aren't you? Yes, this happens but how many interactions do your LEO's have with the public EVERY SINGLE DAY? Hundreds? Thousands? I won't say much more as to not bring out Porky...

 

[Tiger8693]

You are painting with a very broad brush, aren't you? Yes, this happens but how many interactions do your LEO's have with the public EVERY SINGLE DAY? Hundreds? Thousands? I won't say much more as to not bring out Porky...

As we see through this thread, this site has a broad spectrum of people from across the country (and even outside of the US), and from this it is easy to see there is so much division these days within our country. Some ways good (diversity of thought), some ways bad (in many cases, no tolerance for differing opinions). The latter is unfortunately becoming a bigger part, and I am afraid for us (pun intended).

 

[joeea]

She went downstairs to investigate some noise, and came face-to-face with a burglar. She thought he was most likely an illegal immigrant from North Africa.

It's wonderful that she could somehow not only sense his immigration status immediately, but also ascertain where he came from!

Is she psychic?

 

[NW-Bound]

It's wonderful that she could somehow not only sense his immigration status immediately, but also ascertain where he came from!

Is she psychic?

I think it's based on probability. Spanish local people are hit by these crimes too, and it makes the news. Another example is highway bandits in Spain were found to be gangs from Eastern Europe. And pickpockets are usually gypsies.

The Brit woman probably jumped to the conclusion based on the perpetrator's complexion.

 

[joeea]

I think it's based on probability. Spanish local people are hit by these crimes too, and it makes the news. Another example is highway bandits in Spain were found to be gangs from Eastern Europe. And pickpockets are usually gypsies.

The Brit woman probably jumped to the conclusion based on the perpetrator's complexion.

Assumptions and stereotypes can be fun.

I guess if you have the right complexion, it's even more important to keep your own apartment door locked at all times.

 

[NW-Bound]

I always keep my front door locked.

But that is no guarantee that you will not be shot inside your home. Complexion may not matter as much as people think. Bullets do go through doors and drywalls.

This thread spurs me to go look at some past police shootings of innocent people, and I ran across this interesting story about a 92-year-old woman being shot in her home.

What happened was that the police raided a home based on false information. They broke down her door, and apparently the scared woman fired a warning shot as she feared being robbed. What ensued was very, very interesting.

Kathryn Johnston (June 26, 1914 – November 21, 2006) was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia, woman who was killed by undercover police officers in her home on Neal Street in northwest Atlanta on November 21, 2006, where she had lived for 17 years. Three officers had entered her home in what was later described as a 'botched' drug raid. Officers cut off burglar bars and broke down her door using a no-knock warrant. Police said Johnston fired at them and they fired in response; she fired one shot out the door over the officers' heads and they fired 39 shots, five or six of which hit her. None of the officers were injured by her gunfire, but Johnston was killed by the officers. Police injuries were later attributed to "friendly fire" from each other's weapons.

One of the officers planted marijuana in Johnston's house after the shooting. Later investigations found that the paperwork stating that drugs were present at Johnston's house, which had been the basis for the raid, had been falsified. The officers later admitted to having lied when they submitted cocaine as evidence claiming that they had bought it at Johnston's house. Three officers were tried for manslaughter and other charges surrounding falsification and were sentenced to ten, six, and five years.

The charges and penalties were surprisingly light.

 

[ERD50]

It's wonderful that she could somehow not only sense his immigration status immediately, but also ascertain where he came from!

Is she psychic?

Whoah there - you left out some important context in your quote of NW_Bound's post!

When I read that, I thought "Wow! I hadn't heard that WTF!", because I thought that "she" was referring to the police officer, the subject of this thread (well, apparently, since OP was so dodgy about it). That would have put a very different light on this, but it wasn't this woman police officer, it was someone unrelated to this tragic event.

Context is important!

Is it too late to edit your post to clarify?

-ERD50

 

[joeea]

Whoah there - you left out some important context in your quote of NW_Bound's post!

When I read that, I thought "Wow! I hadn't heard that WTF!", because I thought that "she" was referring to the police officer, the subject of this thread (well, apparently, since OP was so dodgy about it). That would have put a very different light on this, but it wasn't this woman police officer, it was someone unrelated to this tragic event.

Context is important!

Is it too late to edit your post to clarify?

-ERD50

In order to clear up your confusion, you need to read what I quoted.

 

[ERD50]

In order to clear up your confusion, you need to read what I quoted.

I did read what you quoted. I was referring to post #112. (edit/add: and that's clear if you follow the links back, no need to question my reading comprehension.)

-ERD50

 

[Katsmeow]

The way I see it the verdict was correct. The sentence is a little light but not terribly out of line. I think it is murder because she intentionally killed him. Manslaughter is when you act recklessly and someone dies.

The questions here -- to me -- aren't really as to whether this was an intentional killing or recklessly causing someone's death. It is evident she intentionally killed him. She admitted that. (The fact she had nothing against him personally is not really relevant).

The real issue here was whether she was excused due to self-defense. The problem with self defense is that she was in his apartment, not hers. At best, she was operating under a mistake of fact.

Assuming she made such a mistake then does that justify her killing him? She argued yes. The reason the instruction on the Castle Doctrine was important was that it would excuse her failure to retreat. The problem otherwise is that even if she was mistaken in fact as to where she was she could have left the apartment and called for her help rather than just shooting him. But, the Castle Doctrine was argued to apply so that she had no obligation to retreat.

Legally, I think it is an interesting case in terms of whether a possible mistake in fact is enough to justify her determination that she needed to kill him in self defense.

(I am a retired lawyer but don't really know anything about criminal law).

The other thing is that so many people I've seen around here (this happened in the next county to where I live) are sympathetic to her at least to some degree. But, I keep thinking about the victim. He had a full life ahead of him. He was just sitting on his couch and someone came into his apartment and shot him dead. Even if she made a mistake, it was the kind of mistake that people shouldn't make and should be held accountable for.

 

[NW-Bound]

I have stayed in quite a few Airbnb's in Western Europe. All apartment buildings have a common entrance which is locked at all times.

I have also stayed in a few single-family homes, which have a gate at an enclosed courtyard before the front door. I was instructed to keep both closed at all times (they are always self-locking).

Europeans living in cities take security very seriously, compared to Americans, no matter what skin complexion they have.

And in the US case of police shooting I recalled on post #115, the homeowner was shot inside the home without being seen. No need to bring race or skin complexion into the discussion here.

 

[HFWR]

No need to bring race or skin complexion into the discussion here.

Before I cut the cord, I watched a program on Science channel, with Morgan Freeman, discussing racism. A test conducted by some researchers was designed to track the test subject’s eye movement. Subjects were then shown a video of a male walking toward them, carrying an object in one hand. In some cases the person walking was light complected, and in some cases they were dark complected. IIRC, many or most of the the test subjects, of both Euro and African descent, turned their gaze toward the object in the approacher’s hand once they recognized the approacher was “black”, whereas if the approacher was “white”, they usually did not. So, even black folk have been conditioned to be suspicious of approaching black males...

 

[easysurfer]

I can't say for sure how I would have decided if I was on the jury as I'd have to weigh the facts. For me the question is if there was reasonable doubt or not and I can't say just by the news coverage.

I just read a news story last night a man got fatally shot by is father-in-law after the man tried to surprise him by visiting unannounced. Authorities just called it a bad accident. I know, not exactly like this case, but that's why the devil is in the details.

Christopher Bergan flew all the way from Norway to surprise his father-in-law but was shot and killed after the plan went awry.
Bergan crossed the pond to Gulf Breeze, Fla., as a 61st birthday gift to his wife’s father, Richard Dennis. After landing around 11 p.m. on Tuesday, he headed straight for Dennis’ house.
The 37-year-old hid behind the bushes in his father-in-law’s backyard, planning to jump out on Dennis’ arrival. Thinking he was an intruder, Dennis shot his son-in-law, killing him instantly.

Johnson went on to explain that a police investigation found the shooting was “totally accidental” and “a really sad occurrence.” Because of the accidental nature of the event, police deemed no charges were warranted in this case.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5989725/man-accidentally-kills-son-in-law/

 

[NW-Bound]

Before I cut the cord, I watched a program on Science channel, with Morgan Freeman, discussing racism. A test conducted by some researchers was designed to track the test subject’s eye movement. Subjects were then shown a video of a male walking toward them, carrying an object in one hand. In some cases the person walking was light complected, and in some cases they were dark complected. IIRC, many or most of the the test subjects, of both Euro and African descent, turned their gaze toward the object in the approacher’s hand once they recognized the approacher was “black”, whereas if the approacher was “white”, they usually did not. So, even black folk have been conditioned to be suspicious of approaching black males...

I believe that.

However, in the case of police shooting innocent unarmed victims, white people have been shot too. I described the case of Justine Damond earlier. She was white. The policeman who shot her was black. He admitted to not seeing her clearly when he opened fire. He was scared and shot at a shadow! He never did see if that was a man, a woman, white, black, elderly, or a kid, or anything.

For example, here's the case of Justine Damond who was shot dead after she called 911 to report a possible assault and rape case behind her home.

When the police arrived and checked out the area, she came out and approached a squad car on the driver's side, and startled the two policemen inside the car. The one in the passenger seat drew a gun, and shot her through the open window. She was in her pajamas, and barefoot.