US Domestic Spying

[gtmeouttahere]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Being an old defense contractor type employee - maybe we should contract out domestic spying and pay bonus bounty for real live terriosts?

I'm game for that!!!

 

[HFWR]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Old Cheech and Chong skit:

Cheech: "Is it true you can get a reward for turning in a drug dealer?"

Sgt. Stadenko: Yes, son, that's true."

Cheech: "Well, then, I want to turn in Billy. He sold me this $hit that wouldn't get a fly high..."

 

[wabmester]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Wake up people.

OK, I'm awake. Got up from my nap and decided to read this thread. Based on your description, it sounded like your coworker should have been charged with some sort of conspiracy offense. So, I googled [edited] and found this guy:

[link removed]

If this is the guy you're saying didn't DO anything, it's still considered bad karma to conspire against the US. Illegal, too.

I'm definitely on the side of civil liberties, but this guy confessed and went to jail.

[link removed]

Personally, I think he's still a sympathetic character. I have no idea what I might have done in his shoes -- if I felt my religion and/or homeland were being unfairly attacked by my host country. But, this doesn't look like a valid indictment against The System.

MODERATOR EDIT: Revealing personal details of another poster and/or his acquaintences. - BMJ

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Of course, you need the rest of the story, not just what hits the papers.

Going before a judge and saying "I didnt do anything, but since i'm having my arm twisted, I guess I'm guilty" gets you very little "leniency", while "I did something wrong and throw myself on the mercy of the court" gets you an oh-so-short 7 years of being beaten up in prison "cuz yer one of them terrorists".

If you read the article you posted, I think that says it all.

"But that same year, neighbors reported to the FBI, he became noticeably more devout. He grew a beard, wore Arab clothing, prayed five times a day and regularly attended mosque. He also became noticeably less friendly.

Further inquiry found that [name removed] paid up his house mortgage (interest payments go against Islamic law) and donated more than $10,000 to the Global Relief Foundation, an Islamic charity subsequently closed for financing terrorist groups [as an aside, if you read up on this charity, there were no criminal charges] . Early in 2001, he went on pilgrimage to Mecca. And "Middle Eastern males" were seen coming and going from his house."

So becoming "more muslim" is a crime worthy of being reported and gaining FBI attention?

Seizing an american citizen and their property and imprisoning them for an extended period without filing charges because they got "more religious", paid off their mortgage and donated to charity is ok?

I think a lot of people tried to reduce this to "well, he admitted committing a crime and said he was sorry, so I guess he was guilty after all".

He said what he had to say to get the "best" outcome. Justice wasnt an option.

If that isnt getting through, perhaps if YOU paid off your mortgage, made a donation and starting becoming more christian and having a lot of them there christians hanging around, and talking about christian oppression is fair game for you to be grabbed, shoved in jail and held without charges? Just to stay on the safe side?

Somebody needed a "poster boy", this guy fit the bill. He got handed a very long, very ****ty stick and was asked exactly how far up the stick he wanted to grab to get out of the hole he was in.

MOD EDIT: Removed name after removing references from Wab's post. -BMJ

 

[Non sequitur]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

This should make everyone happy.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2006/05/govt_source_tel.html

 

[samclem]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

I wonder if they'l find/arrest the guy who is "tipping off" the reporters.

The reporters are protected from charges of divulging secrets . The weasels who are leaking classified information are not--they should expect to be the subject of all legitimate investigatory tools available to the government, to be arrested, and to do time.

 

[Non sequitur]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Legitimate.

 

[samclem]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

do time

 

[Texas Proud]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Even in the worst case scenario, if the government is listening to every conversation I have and every posting I make, it wouldn't bother me since I don't do anything illegal - at least not intentionally .  They would get bored with me very quickly.

I doubt most reasonable, honest people would think the government would be concerned with their lives.

The people that make noise in this area are usually people who are looking for attention or want to think they are more important than other people.

I have not read the whole thread... but it makes me boil that people would so easily let the police state take over just because they are honest and they would not find anything... THAT IS NOT THE POINT... They would find nothing with ME, but I do not think they have the RIGHT to even LISTEN... The constitution is supposed to prevent unreasonable search and seizures... who should decide? Not the police who is doing the searching... but the courts... Bypassing the courts is the problem here...

I am ALL for listening to the terrorists... once they get a warrent which would be signed in a hearbeat if they had evidence there was a terrorist...

 

[Texas Proud]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

I'll leave my post at this as I'm tired of debating with people about war time issues, who seem to forget WE ARE AT WAR whether we like it or not.

Lets retire...

I am getting a bit tired of this also... I heard Britt Hume say something this weekend about them spying and he used the 'We are at WAR' to justify it... well, just because we are at WAR does not give the government more rights...

And lets be real... this is NOT a conventional war with a known enemy... nor at a known country.. and we will be 'at war' with this group until everybody on this board is dead... so I do not want to give up my rights for the rest of my life just because 'we are at war'..

 

[retire@40]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

...but I do not think they have the RIGHT to even LISTEN...  The constitution is supposed to prevent unreasonable search and seizures... who should decide?  Not the police who is doing the searching... but the courts... Bypassing the courts is the problem here...

So if the courts say it's OK for the government to listen in on all your conversations, you would be OK with that?

 

[Texas Proud]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

So if the courts say it's OK for the government to listen in on all your conversations, you would be OK with that?

Yes!!! First, the police would have to make a case that there is something to listen for... that there is a crime... and then the judge would have to make a decision to say what they could listen for... and a time period... and then they would have to go back to the court if they had not found anything in the time the warrent was issued to try and get another...

Now, all they have to do is start listening...

 

[Texas Proud]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Also, let's be clear... the US government was listening to calls from overseas for many years... I was in the UK for about a year and saw pictures of the site that monitors calls... it was HUGH... I was told that they have computers that listen for key words such as bomb, explosion etc. etc.. and the computer would flag it to be looked at by a human..

 

[wabmester]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Of course, you need the rest of the story, not just what hits the papers.

I was going by what the man himself said in his statement to the judge.    Basically, Allah told him to fight the power, so he planned to do what his god told him to do, laws or no.

BMJ decided to edit out some juicy details, so I'll leave out the link to his statement and just include a bit here:

Allah clearly states the two choices, Him versus everything else. He also clearly states the outcome of choosing anything over Him; his anger and eternal punishment. As a believer of heaven and hell, I have boundless trepidation of spending a split second in hell fire. As a Muslim, I have even greater fear of Allah's displeasure, let alone anger. Some might dismiss this as paranoia and nonsense, since God is most merciful. True, he is most merciful, yet his anger and punishment are most severe to those who disobey him. I chose to meet my obligations and seek his pleasure.

 

[brewer12345]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

I was going by what the man himself said in his statement to the judge.    Basically, Allah told him to fight the power, so he planned to do what his god told him to do, laws or no.

BMJ decided to edit out some juicy details, so I'll leave out the link to his statement and just include a bit here:

Allah clearly states the two choices, Him versus everything else. He also clearly states the outcome of choosing anything over Him; his anger and eternal punishment. As a believer of heaven and hell, I have boundless trepidation of spending a split second in hell fire. As a Muslim, I have even greater fear of Allah's displeasure, let alone anger. Some might dismiss this as paranoia and nonsense, since God is most merciful. True, he is most merciful, yet his anger and punishment are most severe to those who disobey him. I chose to meet my obligations and seek his pleasure.

Funny, I have heard essentially the same thing out of themouths of many an Xtian preacer and "true believer", yet I don't see any of them being called into the FBI by the neighbors, dragged off to prison, getting their asses whomped, etc.

 

[wabmester]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Funny, I have heard essentially the same thing out of themouths of many an Xtian preacer and "true believer", yet I don't see any of them being called into the FBI by the neighbors, dragged off to prison, getting their asses whomped, etc.

Yeah, I guess the difference is that this particular True Believer conspired to fight against US soldiers and apparently tried to get into Afghanistan to carry out his plans.  Eventually, he decided to call the whole thing off and go home.    Unfortunately, he broke the law at the conspiracy stage -- one of the few preemptive laws on the book, AFAIK.

 

[Danny]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

 

[HFWR]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

The govt was data-mining the calling records, not listening to calls. Or so they say... :

 

[MasterBlaster]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Data Mining and you

 

[Lazarus]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Don't care. Listen away. My phone calls would be boring to anyone who listened. There has to be a balance between privacy and security. No more attacks since 911 show good success in preventing who knows how many attacks. Obviously the Government can't say or they will compromise their methods.

Anyone making large donations to Muslim charities and taking trips to the Middle East should be watched.

Sorry CFB.

 

[retire@40]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Yes!!!  First, the police would have to make a case that there is something to listen for... that there is a crime... and then the judge would have to make a decision to say what they could listen for... and a time period... and then they would have to go back to the court if they had not found anything in the time the warrent was issued to try and get another...

Now, all they have to do is start listening...

Sounds like you are in favor of the checks and balances of government. Me too. So if the courts find that what the NSA and other government agencies have done is constitutional, using the same logic, you would be OK with that too, right?

 

[eridanus]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

No more attacks since 911 show good success in preventing who knows how many attacks.

It's working. I see no elephants.

 

[bpp]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Seizing an american citizen and their property and imprisoning them for an extended period without filing charges because they got "more religious", paid off their mortgage and donated to charity is ok?

Now that's a new factor to worry about in the payoff debate.

Glad I don't live in a country that conducts widescale domestic spying.
(At least I think I don't...)

Bpp

 

[Nords]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Glad I don't live in a country that conducts widescale domestic spying.
(At least I think I don't...)

That's a good one!

Working with the JMSDF in the early '90s, it wasn't even clear that they'd told their government all of the classified things they were doing-- let alone received permission for it...

 

[bpp]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Working with the JMSDF in the early '90s, it wasn't even clear that they'd told their government all of the classified things they were doing-- let alone received permission for it...

Interesting. I don't suppose there are any stories you could share...

I guess I'll have to take solace in reflecting that even if somebody high-up does peg me for a dangerous, anti-government religious fanatic upon review of my mortgage payment records, if their preventive handling of Aum Shinri Kyou is any indication, I have nothing to worry about.

Bpp