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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 11:37 AM   #61
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

It is interesting to me that students interviewed on TV were saying how shocked they were because "this is not a dangerous campus." I think the definition of what is "dangerous" really needs to be redefined. Anyone can take the off ramp and come into your "safe" community and kidnap your kid, or shoot pedestrians on the street. Or in this case, a troubled young person can get a resident visa and come to the US for college, putting a whole campus at risk. Who knows how many time bombs there are on college campuses right now?

It's easy to say that he's a whackjob, a "lone assasin." But that explanation has been used for decades. There's always a historical and/or social context for such events.

What's "dangerous" is a society that entertains its boys and young men with violent TV, movies, Internet, games, and violent pornography day in and day out. What's also "dangerous" is the social acceptance of this "entertainment." The easy access to weapons is just icing on the cake.

Our society really needs to wake up and take responsibility for creating the atmosphere in which these unstable individuals go postal because it's occuring way too often these days.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 11:48 AM   #62
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Hard to know what the chaos was like in those classrooms............

However, I think one's first reaction would be to put as much "stuff" between the shooter and I as possible, if the way to escape was blocked. I'm thinking noone had the time to conceive a "take-out"plan, because they were not kidnapped, they were murdered in cold blood...........

It's easy to armchair quarterback stuff when we weren't in the room.........

However, the kids that barred the doow when the shooter came back are most definitely heroes..............
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 11:49 AM   #63
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Interesting responses. Whatever we think about the gun control issue, this is an incomprehensible tragedy and my heart and prayers go out to the parents, friends, and anyone whose life was touched by this tragedy -- maybe that's all of us.

For those who say they won't give up their gun, gun control is not about taking anyone's gun away -- well, maybe some who shouldn't be carrying one to begin with -- but it's not about taking guns away from responsible individuals. What I would like to see is a similar licensing process for guns that we have for driver's licenses, with the addition of psychological conditions. We should make sure the person is trained, can pass a basic exam on the care and use of a weapon, is free of past felonies, and doesn't have certain psychological issues. Not being a psychiatrist I don't know what those should be, but I'd think someone should not be under treatment for depression or other conditions that might raise a flag. I don't see this as any different as requiring good vision for a driver's license, it just extends it to conditions that are more appropriate for owning a gun.

At one time I used to carry a service 38 revolver in the course of my military duties. I was well trained, had to renew my training once a year, was screened yearly for physical and mental disorders, and had to periodically account for both the gun and the bullets. Outside the military, however, there were zero safeguards. I could go in and buy a handgun even if I had just escaped from a mental institution. Something is not right with that picture. To those who believe the Constitution gives us the right to bear weapons, I again remind them that it's in the context of a well regulated militia. Our forefathers knew very well the dangers of weapons being carried by nut cases.

I don't think any responsible gun owner has anything to fear from gun control. Would that end the kinds of incidents we saw? No, just as licensing drivers does not end car fatalities. But they are a lot less than if we didn't license drivers at all. Gun control would reduce these incidents, and would save lives.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 07:35 PM   #64
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by SoonToRetire
What I would like to see is a similar licensing process for guns that we have for driver's licenses, with the addition of psychological conditions. We should make sure the person is trained, can pass a basic exam on the care and use of a weapon, is free of past felonies, and doesn't have certain psychological issues. Not being a psychiatrist I don't know what those should be, but I'd think someone should not be under treatment for depression or other conditions that might raise a flag. I don't see this as any different as requiring good vision for a driver's license, it just extends it to conditions that are more appropriate for owning a gun.
I just printed out the renewal application for an Illinois FOID (Firearm owners identification) the other day. It requires all pertinent info that you suggest be submitted on the app. It is sent to the Illinois State Police Headquarters in Springfield. When they receive it they run it through the computers to check that all the info is correct as stated on your app. They do a full background check before they will issue a FOID to anyone. The time before last that I applied for renewal, they contacted our local police dept. to have them contact me also. I guess maybe they wanted a face-to-face to see if I wuz nutz! I talked to the chief, then a week or so later got my new FOID.

You also are required to tell them if you suffer from depression, etc., and also if you are taking medication or treatment for it or any other mental problem....if so...NO FOID for you!! And if you perjure yourself, and they find out.....which they most likely will.....FELONY!!!

I seriously doubt that most of the looney tunes that go on shooting rampages or do the so-called random drive-by shooting, or those who break in to other peoples homes, and such as that, have ever applied for or received a valid FOID.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:12 PM   #65
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by Oldbabe
What's "dangerous" is a society that entertains its boys and young men with violent TV, movies, Internet, games, and violent pornography day in and day out. What's also "dangerous" is the social acceptance of this "entertainment." The easy access to weapons is just icing on the cake.
OK, first I was confused about the putative correlation between violence & gun control, then about the hypothetical correlation between France's clean air and its nuclear power plants, and now the possible correlation among the above factors.

I've already edited my remarks here once too often. I'm done with this thread.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:14 PM   #66
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Goonie, that Illinois law is a great example for the rest of the country. Unfortunately, as you said, the loonies would not apply for the FOID, and they could get guns from other places with lax or no laws. As a test, I just went into Froogle and put in 9mm gun. I clicked on the first vendor that came up so as not to bias the results. and ordered the gun. They have all kinds of statements to make sure the address is correct and the credit card info is correct to make sure there are no mailing errors, but nothing about license, background, anything. By the way, I put in a Virginia address, but it would probably take an Illinois address as well. Maybe they do some screening after you insert your credit card info but I didn't want to go that far.

I think the lesson here is, we need gun control laws but they have to be uniformly applied across the country and they have to be enforced. DC had a gun control law but it was a joke, since guns can easily be brought across from Virginia. In addition, Congress in all their wisdom repealed it -- I would love to trace the money between the gun industry and politicians.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:31 PM   #67
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbabe

What's "dangerous" is a society that entertains its boys and young men with violent TV, movies, Internet, games, and violent pornography day in and day out. What's also "dangerous" is the social acceptance of this "entertainment." The easy access to weapons is just icing on the cake.
"boys and young men" What about girls and young women also? Aside from that , there has been no correlation among the the items you mention and violence. Acertions have been made to a correlilation by those who want to outlaw those things.

I do agree in principle that there are many objectionable things in the items you mention but not the conclution.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:43 PM   #68
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by bright eyed
Oh geez, now let's get ignorant here.

someone said he might be asian - there are over 30 asian countries and more than double that the number of ethnic groups within China - so cut out the bull generalizations puh-leeeeez....
I guess you missed the news story yesterday that the murderer was a Chinese man on here on a student visa. I was misinformed by a news story, and you were uninformed. That makes you ignorant also. Your ignorance however, was based solely on what you incorrectly assumed me to be.

Quote:
as of today we know he is korean - check google if you need to see a map of where that country is.

and for your information there are millions of AMERICANS who are of asian descent....
Nice. See above. I don't refer to all Asians as Chinese. I responded to what the news was reporting as fact. I made no comments based on assumptions. You however, assumed that I was a racist bigot. You do not know me.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 09:12 PM   #69
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Actually, he was a South Korean green card holder who was in the US since 1992 legally. He was eligible to apply for citizenship, but never did.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 09:54 PM   #70
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbabe
It is interesting to me that students interviewed on TV were saying how shocked they were because "this is not a dangerous campus." I think the definition of what is "dangerous" really needs to be redefined. Anyone can take the off ramp and come into your "safe" community and kidnap your kid, or shoot pedestrians on the street. Or in this case, a troubled young person can get a resident visa and come to the US for college, putting a whole campus at risk. Who knows how many time bombs there are on college campuses right now?

It's easy to say that he's a whackjob, a "lone assasin." But that explanation has been used for decades. There's always a historical and/or social context for such events.

What's "dangerous" is a society that entertains its boys and young men with violent TV, movies, Internet, games, and violent pornography day in and day out. What's also "dangerous" is the social acceptance of this "entertainment." The easy access to weapons is just icing on the cake.

Our society really needs to wake up and take responsibility for creating the atmosphere in which these unstable individuals go postal because it's occuring way too often these days.
I quite agree. Except you might want to include females too...
Also I think it is probably a lot more complicated than the "entertainment factor".

The "atmosphere" (as you mentioend it) is bearable suitable for -say- 99.9% of the society but one might consider the effect it has on the remaining .1% and the devastating consequences on the whole society.

The popsicle index may be a good measure of the health of our society; although I have never seen a comparative measurement of it.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 10:07 PM   #71
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

I was surprised to find out VT isn't the worst school mass murder in the U.S. In 1927 a farmer got ticked off at increased property taxes to pay for a new elementary school, so over the course of a year he loaded dynamite and pyrotol under the school. Then he beat his wife to death, tied his farm animals so they couldn't escape the subsequent fire and blew up his farm buildings while the elementary school blew up shortly after by timer. He loaded his pickup with dynamite and scrap metal (for shrapnel), drove to the school site and detonated the pickup killing himself and several bystanders including some kids who survived the school explosion. 45 fatalities, many of which were young school kids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_Disaster
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 10:35 PM   #72
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by Goonie
They do a full background check before they will issue a FOID to anyone.
Sadly, that's not true. Although the cursory check they do do is better than nothing.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 10:57 PM   #73
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by Goonie
The City of Chicago has a hand gun ban. Has for several (many) years. Yet just about everyday IN the City of Chicago, people are being murdered by a**holes with hand guns. The only people in Chicago that the ban has affected are the law-abiding citizens that were requested/required to turn in their hand guns. The criminal element still have and use hand guns.

Instead of banning guns, ban criminals!

Gun control is a steady hand, a sharp eye, and a gentle squeeze. 8)
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-18-2007, 12:00 AM   #74
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by SoonToRetire
I would love to trace the money between the gun industry and politicians.
I can help you a little bit in your quest. Part of the money that goes to lobbyists, comes from my donations to the NRA. They lobby congress on my behalf (and on the behalf of all American citizens), for my right to be able to control my own guns. And I know I'll probably catch some flack from some folks for my statements, views, and opinions......However, I really don't give a rat's *ss, as others have a right to there views and opinions, also. And as long as we maintain our 2nd amendment's rights, we will also maintain our 1st amendment's rights.

That's my view and opinion, and I'll stick to it until my death, at which time someone else may have my guns.....but not until that time!

And as Nords stated:
Quote:
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I've already edited my remarks here once too often. I'm done with this thread.
I, too, am done here!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-18-2007, 01:23 AM   #75
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by livnlow
I guess you missed the news story yesterday that the murderer was a Chinese man on here on a student visa. I was misinformed by a news story, and you were uninformed. That makes you ignorant also. Your ignorance however, was based solely on what you incorrectly assumed me to be.
Nice. See above. I don't refer to all Asians as Chinese. I responded to what the news was reporting as fact. I made no comments based on assumptions. You however, assumed that I was a racist bigot. You do not know me.
oh, my bad - it was the news story that misinformed you that caused you to make your xenophobic statement...woops. :
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-18-2007, 04:36 AM   #76
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by FinanceDude
That's how criminals can get them now......... :P I have heard you can buy a gun on the street for as little as $25...............

no one has stricter gun control than new york city. in a city of 15 or 16 million we have 35,000 or so permits issued. all that tells the bad guys is the odds of running into a legally armed civilian is slim to none .

i think someone better tell the bad guys they can't have guns! dont they know the laws.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-18-2007, 04:42 AM   #77
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
How about restricting sales of ammunition? Dunno if it would work, but might be worth a try.

do you know just owning ammo for any firearm not listed on your permit here in nyc is a criminal act. so is owning any leftover magazines or clips from any firearms you once owned but no longer do.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-18-2007, 04:47 AM   #78
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

gun control?? does that mean hitting your target?

god i would have loved to have had even 1 person in that dorm with a ccw permit and good aim. 30 kids may have been alive right now..
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-18-2007, 05:06 AM   #79
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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gun control?? does that mean hitting your target?

god i would have loved to have had even 1 person in that dorm with a ccw permit and good aim. 30 kids may have been alive right now..
Armchair QBs, Look the moron was loaded for bear. Bottom line a free society is vulnerable to this stuff. Learn to be aware of your surroundings, Watch your back be streetwise! We learned these facts working in americas inner cities over the years. What is so different when a drive by shooter kills two kids going home from high school in Newark?? That never gets any press nationally. Are the poor in this country not as important as the wealthy? we all know the answers.

Guns and bullets. What a mess. I never understood the facination with guys wanting to use guns for enjoyment.

I just don 't get it. To each his own its americav
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-18-2007, 05:13 AM   #80
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

its not just a guy thing. my wife and i both shoot competitively on a team.
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