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Old 06-06-2010, 09:03 AM   #21
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(And don't get me started on the rant that starts with: I am unaware of any members of this Forum who themselves or their ancestors did not immigrate to this country in the last 300 years.)
I respect your opinions, but that one is a giant non sequiter. Because out land once needed and could profitably use immigrants, it welcomed them. It is odd to continue a policy past its economic fitness, just because it was our policy at some(not all) times in the past.

Ha
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:22 AM   #22
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It is odd to continue a policy past its economic fitness, just because it was our policy at some(not all) times in the past.
Since we are so much better off now and all our troubles are behind us, isolationism and in-bred thinking is the preferred model then? (He said, trying real hard to avoid the bait.)

In any event, my point is more along the lines of there being too much invested (emotionally, economically, and just plain ol thinking) for any benefit we would ever receive by resolving it. There must be "real" problems somewhere needing our attention.
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:36 AM   #23
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Since we are so much better off now and all our troubles are behind us, isolationism and in-bred thinking is the preferred model then? (He said, trying real hard to avoid the bait.)

In any event, my point is more along the lines of there being too much invested (emotionally, economically, and just plain ol thinking) for any benefit we would ever receive by resolving it. There must be "real" problems somewhere needing our attention.
This is not analysis, it is your prejudice proffered as analysis.

As far as your first paragraph, I couldn't begin to figure out what you intend to say, if anything other than a jab at those who may have a different idea from yours. And incidentally, almost the entire world has a different idea from what I think you are trying to say, though I admit I really don't know what that is.

Just because there is a large voting block in the US that is hostile to any efforts to control our borders, does not mean that porous borders is good poicy, it only means that this policy fits the political interests of certain individuals, parties, or groups. Does Canada tacitly welcome illegals?
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:42 AM   #24
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The Next Empire - Magazine - The Atlantic- (Free Article)

Seems like local people on the ground are less enthusiastic about international do-goodism than the do-gooders are. File under quixotic undertakings that ignore economic reality.

Davies calls the Chinese boom “a phenomenal success story for Africa,” and sees it continuing indefinitely. “Africa is the source of at least one-third of the world’s commodities”—commodities China will need, as its manufacturing economy continues to grow—“and once you’ve understood that, you understand China’s determination to build roads, ports, and railroads all over Africa.”
Davies is not alone in his enthusiasm. “No country has made as big an impact on the political, economic and social fabric of Africa as China has since the turn of the millennium,” writes Dambisa Moyo, a London-based economist, in her influential book, Dead Aid: Why Aid Is Not Working and How There Is a Better Way for Africa. Moyo, a 40-year-old Zambian who has worked as an investment banker for Goldman Sachs and as a consultant for the World Bank, believes that foreign aid is a curse that has crippled and corrupted Africa—and that China offers a way out of the mess the West has made.
“Between 1970 and 1998,” she writes, “when aid flows to Africa were at their peak, poverty in Africa rose from 11 percent to a staggering 66 percent.” Subsidized lending, she says, encourages African governments to make sloppy, wasteful decisions. It breeds corruption, by allowing politicians to siphon off poorly monitored funds. And it forestalls national development, which she says begins with the building of a taxation system and the attraction of foreign commercial capital. In Moyo’s view, even the West’s “obsession with democracy” has been harmful. In poor countries, she writes, “democratic regimes find it difficult to push through economically beneficial legislation amid rival parties and jockeying interests.” Sustainable democracy, she feels, is possible only after a strong middle class has emerged.
I don't have time to read the article now since I have to get ready for my son's high school graduation (yay!, 1 down & 2 to go) but I've been reading about China's approach for a long time. Definitely seems to be the better model. Certainly not altruistic on their part but you can bet the Chinese will be first in line when lucrative contracts are awarded. Africa is benefiting greatly but I'm sure they will be abused in some respects as well. More later, have to run.
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Old 06-06-2010, 01:19 PM   #25
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Jobs must be created (or is a better word; invented?) before our "dream world" can become reality.
Right. And real private-sector jobs (the only ones that increase the wealth of our society) only come about when someone can use labor to produce more value for a customer than the labor costs. Jobs can't be an end in themselves, they are only a by-product of the process.

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Whining about strangers showing up at the borders of the "land of opportunity" is only deverting our attention -- like the sleight-of-hand from a Magician.
Anyone who claims that ending illegal immigration would end US unemployment is being untruthful. Anyone who says it wouldn't reduce unemployment and also raise wages at the lower end of the scale is ignoring the obvious for some reason.


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(And don't get me started on the rant that starts with: I am unaware of any members of this Forum who themselves or their ancestors did not immigrate to this country in the last 300 years.)
Does this rant happen to distinguish between those who break the law and those who don't? It's a useful distinction, I think.
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Old 06-06-2010, 01:34 PM   #26
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Like saying "There's a need for several hundred thousand seasonal workers here." (A suspicious number to begin with.) And expecting that to solve the long-term problem of millions.
Something to bear in mind, and a good clue as to why these jobs are hard to fill, is that many of the agriculture jobs are temp work, a few weeks at a time in the planting and harvest season. Folks taking these jobs are often paid piecework rates, so experienced, nimble workers easily do better than the inexperienced folk. Many of these workers are prepared to move from region to region to follow the planting season and harvest, so as to produce a living income.

This is not easy work, and I think people often underestimate the level of skill involved.
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Old 06-06-2010, 01:54 PM   #27
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Something to bear in mind, and a good clue as to why these jobs are hard to fill, is that many of the agriculture jobs are temp work, a few weeks at a time in the planting and harvest season. Folks taking these jobs are often paid piecework rates, so experienced, nimble workers easily do better than the inexperienced folk. Many of these workers are prepared to move from region to region to follow the planting season and harvest, so as to produce a living income.

This is not easy work, and I think people often underestimate the level of skill involved.
Back when teachers made less money than they do today, I knew several high school teachers who did the cherry and apple harvests in WA. It was hard work, and involved some danger. Still, do we intend a class in our society for whom we allow no legal paid work so that they will not have to do hard work?

If so, we must reconcile ourselves to the reality that illegals must be a perpetual flow, since as and if they qualify for legal status they will necessarily also qualify for the status allowing no work in lieu of hard work. It isn't that Latins like hard, hot, dusty work- it's that as of yet the illegals among them can't qualify for the no-work option.

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Old 06-06-2010, 03:56 PM   #28
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Back when teachers made less money than they do today, I knew several high school teachers who did the cherry and apple harvests in WA. It was hard work, and involved some danger. Still, do we intend a class in our society for whom we allow no legal paid work so that they will not have to do hard work?
No, that would not be a good idea. (I suspect you feel the same way.)

There is already a labor shortage for migrant farm workers. Removing the illegals would open up more such jobs (along with others in construction temp work and the food service industry, and a bunch of other positions generally classified as 'low-skilled'), but there is currently no motivation to move more legal residents to take up these positions.

Now, whether a carrot or a stick would work better in moving legal residents to take these positions is an entirely different topic. My point is simply that there is a shortage of workers in these areas already, and illegals taking these positions do not appear to be displacing legal residents from these jobs in significant numbers.

For E-R folks, there are currently some openings in the Napa valley for folks to trim vines. (different from the February pruning) Pay is about $1.25/vine, and the work involves trimming the first several buds on a cane and lateral shoots. A good, fast worker can easily make $200/day, supplementing the full time field crews.
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